South korean warship sunks after possible torpedo attack.

[Architect]

The said "pocket battleship" weighted 53,500 tons and was the third heaviest ship afloat at the time. Her sister perished after a prolonged battle involving half the British home fleet, sunk one of the Royal navies' most famed warships and severely damaged another new battleship. After that battle, she was hit by aircraft and ship borne torpedoes and two other battleships practically expanded their magazines in order sink her.

Tirptiz was a valuable target, which merited the risky assault. South Korean corvette was not. That's before we consider such an attack is rather difficult (i.e. impossible) on a ship that is underway ...

McHrozni

Just as an aside, I know one of the chaps on the mini subs. Yes, really. He's still alive. Absolutely fascinating chap. Mr. Lorimer.

 

[DogB]

We more or less agree on all points, but I'll comment on this one - we don't know if the sonar was in passive listening mode. It could've been pinging another submarine in a different direction, or listening intensively in that direction, disregarding other directions.

It isn't a very likely scenario though, I agree

McHrozni

Oh sure. I even comment above (somewhere) that in the water that shallow with D/E subs as your main threat then active mode sonar might be the better tactic.

Point taken.

 

[DogB]

Just as an aside, I know one of the chaps on the mini subs. Yes, really. He's still alive. Absolutely fascinating chap. Mr. Lorimer.

John Thornton Lorimer from X-6.

I envy you. Those fellows redefined the word 'brave'.

 

[catsmate]

Just read a news story alleging that it was possibly a suicide attack by a midget submarine, or possibly that the midget sub planted timed charges.

If you will recall the sinking of the German's pocket battleship Tirpitz at its moorings in Kaafiord in 1943 by British X-class midget submarines, this is entirely believable. In that case it was not intended to be a suicide mission, but many of the crews did perish.

Nitpick: Operation Source in September 1943 damaged, to the point of crippling, Tirpitz but didn't sink her. She was operational again in six months and at sea (on trials) in August of 1944. And she wasn't a pocket battleship by any means.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Well, this is interesting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTOE64600V

The team of South Korean and foreign investigators found traces of explosives used in torpedoes on several parts of the sunken ship as well as pieces of composite metal used in such weapons, South Korea's Yonhap news agency said quoting a senior government official.

 

[Puppycow]

Clues suggest NKorean sub behind warship attack

By ERIC TALMADGE (AP) – 3 hours ago

TOKYO — Experts say North Korea's submarine fleet is technologically backward, prone to sinking or running aground and all but useless outside its own coastal waters.

And yet many are asking: Could it have been responsible for the explosion that sank a South Korean warship in March? And if so, how could a sub have slipped through the defenses of South Korea, which, with significant American backing, maintains a fleet far more sophisticated than its northern neighbor's?

Evidence collected so far indicates a torpedo hit the Cheonan, killing 46 sailors, and suspicion is growing that it was launched from a small North Korean submarine. That scenario would make it the most serious attack on the South Korean military since the peninsula's war ended in a truce in 1953.

Fred Hiatt - China's troubling friendship with N. Korea

Fresh from sinking a South Korean navy ship and taking the lives of 46 mostly young sailors, North Korean leader Kim Jong Il hopped on his private armored train last week for a friendly visit to his enablers in Beijing.

Is that a harsh interpretation of events? Yes; nuances and caveats to follow. But it's also an interpretation that best fits the available facts -- and it raises questions about the Obama administration's enduring hope (like the hope of the Bush administration before it) for China's help in constraining not only North Korea but also Iran and other bad actors around the world.

 

[Puppycow]

Pfft, if this is true, North Korea is sicker than I ever imagined.

The more you learn about North Korea, the sicker you get. It's always worse than you would imagine.

 

[McHrozni]

Fred Hiatt - China's troubling friendship with N. Korea

I generally agree with this one. China should be trusted only as far as it could be thrown. With your odd hand. After breaking a few bones in it.

The more you learn about North Korea, the sicker you get. It's always worse than you would imagine.

I can imagine quite a lot, but throwing away highly skilled commandos to attack a small coastal corvette outside of an armed conflict is still above what I'd imagine.

If the regime collapses onto itself and the information begins to run free across the border we'll see a lot of sick stuff.

McHrozni

 

[Puppycow]

U.S. Experts 'Believe N.Korea Sank the Cheonan'

U.S. experts taking part in the investigation into the sinking of the South Korean Navy corvette Cheonan have done all they can and expect no new discoveries, a South Korean government source said Sunday.

"So far we've been able to verify based on many pieces of evidence that the weapon used to sink the Cheonan was a torpedo, but we still have no conclusive evidence linking it to North Korea," the source said. "But the U.S. experts feel the results so far are enough to confirm that the culprit was North Korea and are satisfied with the better-than-expected results of the probe."

 

[geni]

A North Korean submarine's torpedo sank a South Korean navy ship in March causing the loss of 46 sailors, an international report has found.

Investigators said they had discovered part of the torpedo on the sea floor and it carried lettering that matched a North Korean design.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10129703.stm

I think that settles the matter.

 

[Puppycow]

It's now official

Washington (CNN) -- A North Korean submarine fired a torpedo that sunk a South Korea warship in March, investigators announced Thursday morning in Seoul, South Korea.

Diplomatic Storm Brewing Over Korean Peninsula

WASHINGTON — South Korea’s formal accusation that a North Korean torpedo sank one of its warships, killing 46 sailors, will set off a diplomatic drumbeat to punish North Korea, backed by the United States and other nations, which could end up in the United Nations Security Council.

On Thursday morning in Seoul, the South Korean government presented forensic evidence, including part of a torpedo propeller with what investigators believe is a North Korean serial number.

They said it proved that the underwater explosion that shattered the 1,200-ton corvette, the Cheonan, in March near a disputed sea border with the North was caused by the detonation of a torpedo.

On Monday, South Korea is expected to push for the case to be referred to the United Nations, and the United States plans to back Seoul “strongly and unequivocally,” according to Obama administration officials.

The big question, the officials said, is whether China, North Korea’s neighbor and a veto-wielding member of the Security Council, will go along with yet another international condemnation of the North. China backed sanctions against North Korea last year after the North tested a nuclear device, but it has reacted with extreme caution since the ship sank on March 26.

 

[Puppycow]

Everyone thinks we won't go to war over this, but should we?

Wouldn't our side suffer less damage and casualties if we attack them before they attack us again instead of waiting for them to attack us again?

Does anyone think sanctions will do anything useful?

 

[Thunder]

there has to be consequences. such an action cannot go unpunished. this was an act of war.

perhaps N. Korea should lose its seat on any UN commitees..and be taken out of the Security Council rotation.

 

[bigjelmapro]

If there's one place that needs a regime change, its N. Korea.

Don't know what Kim Jong-Il's son is like, but if its more of the same, throw some money at the situation, position some more Aegis ships in the surroundings and forcefully remove this dictator. Unless we think that diplomacy has been effective thus far

 

[Roadtoad]

It's an act of war. It's needs to be responded to appropriately, without Chinese interference in any way.

The UN business is a waste. Taking away North Korea's toys will accomplish nothing; Kim will simply go to his room and play with his Wii, building more nukes.

He needs to be taken out. This family has already blown up an airliner filled with innocents. Now, it's time to start inflicting pain.

 

[Nosi]

The problem with 'inflicting pain' on North Korea is only the lower classes feel the pain. The upper classes including Kim never feel the pain. They are cushioned by their crime activities and under handed goodie lines.

 

[Toke]

It's an act of war. It's needs to be responded to appropriately, without Chinese interference in any way.

The UN business is a waste. Taking away North Korea's toys will accomplish nothing; Kim will simply go to his room and play with his Wii, building more nukes.

He needs to be taken out. This family has already blown up an airliner filled with innocents. Now, it's time to start inflicting pain.

I agree with the sentiment, but do not see any good way of doing it.

 

[Roadtoad]

The problem with 'inflicting pain' on North Korea is only the lower classes feel the pain. The upper classes including Kim never feel the pain. They are cushioned by their crime activities and under handed goodie lines.

I agree with the sentiment, but do not see any good way of doing it.

Agreed. The tragedy is that these knuckle draggers are so well protected. The handful of options left would inflict obscene pain on the innocent civilians, while the people who ought to be punished would escape relatively unscathed, and likely better off, (probably living in Myanmar as guests of the thugocracy there.)

 

[jdp]

Agreed. The tragedy is that these knuckle draggers are so well protected. The handful of options left would inflict obscene pain on the innocent civilians, while the people who ought to be punished would escape relatively unscathed, and likely better off, (probably living in Myanmar as guests of the thugocracy there.)

I just don't see any reasonable way that one could respond other then through sanctions or similar actions through the UN. Even in China remained uninvolved it would be a blood bath for both the North and the South. While I am sure that in the long term, South Korea would prevail, are they willing to take the beating that is sure to come if they responded with force?

 

[BenBurch]

What if we just offered to buy out their position? Pay them handsomely to step down with full immunity and protection in return for the entire control of NK?