• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Something new under the sun

Alien mind beams, man I got to get me one of those!

Can it do steaks?

PS I was disagreeing with Ian. I hope I am being more reasonable now.
 
Last edited:
I hope I am being more reasonable now.

All good now. The conversation was starting to remind me of an old thread: Randi had commented that dowsers should be challenged to find a dry spot instead of a wet spot, and someone was trying to smugly parse this into an acceptable Challenge application: "If I can prove that geological dry spots exist, I win $1M." Somehow or other this led to normally-reasonable people making all sorts of overgeneralizations about aquifers, just to disagree with the smug guy---"aquifers don't flow", "there are no underground rivers", whatever.

Part of the problem is when the poster doesn't actually know what he is talking about, but occasionally makes a true statement just by combinatorics.

  • A: "I have invented Grand Unified Algebra. 1+1=4, 2+3=5, 4+4=5, and 4+6=7, therefore Fermat's Last Theorem is true."
  • B: "Aack! That's all totally wrong."
  • A: "Oh yeah? I have a book right here agreeing with 2+3=5. And Fermat's Theorem is true, it was in the news. Also, 1+1=4."
  • B: "Let's take a step back---you gave four sums, three of which were wrong ..."
  • (begin 1000-post thread)
 
Belz, watch out for the trap that DD fell into: disagreeing with Zeuzz every time he says something is "electromagnetic". The solar wind is, in fact, a highly-ionized plasma and thus consists of charged particles. The mainstream model of the wind's acceleration is a mixture of (a) simple thermal escape from the hot corona, with the corona heated magnetically, and (b) occasional large flares or CMEs, accelerated by large magnetic reconnection events. It's a very complicated system, but it's definitely an active topic of study for mainstream plasma physics. Coronal heating is thought to be done via some combination of reconnection and plasma waves which couple in from below the photosphere.


any justification for these hand waving statements? or does the simple E field resulting from the suns global double layer illude you aswell?

There is no consensus on this issue, and many different models have been proposed. No matter what you say, acceleration from the suns global E-field that results from its net charge is a potential, and perfectly viable, solution to this problem. If you have discovered that the origin of the solar wind is not a mystery, and you have found the definitive solution out of all the different ones that have been offered, I suggest you contact NASA and inform them of your amazing discovery. :rolleyes:



The assertion that the Solar Wind is accelerated or heated "electromagnetically" falls squarely in category 1.


And so does all the other plasma cosmology material I have posted so far fall under this bracket, in the established science of plasma physics. Unless you have come up with a reason to dismiss it that you have been hiding from me?

But where do you see the astronomers considering what effect the E-fields that result from the charge separation in the plasma double layer above the sun? You dont, they are taught that charge can not separate in space, contrary to the opinions of plasma experts that study that field. The effects of the E-fields that result from this are now well known, and are certainly not currently included in solar models. If you tried to comprehend what i am saying for one minute, instead of instantly jumping to erroneous conclusions, maybe you would realise this.
 
Last edited:
According to BAC, you apparently think you can violate Gauss's law with refrigerator magnets. Start with this:

...........................
...........................
...........................
.....NS.......NS.......
...........................
...........................
...........................

Draw the field lines in the middle. Introduce two more magnets, slowly, until you have this:

.............N...........
.............S............
...........................
.....NS.......NS.......
...........................
.............N.............
.............S.............

And withdraw the original magnets:

.............N...........
.............S............
...........................
............................
...........................
.............N.............
.............S.............

And draw the field lines. Seriously, take four magnets off of your fridge and try it. Good heavens! You must have violated Gauss's law! Quick, call the Monopole Response Unit and get scrubbed down!


What are you talking about? How does a standard example of a neutral point between four magnets show magnetic reconnection?

Do the experiment I showed you with the four magnets. Did the experiment "actually occur"? Good. You have just shown that reconnection can actually occur.



Yes, I did it, and oddly enough there was no explosive release of energy as the lines reconnected. The field lines did exactly what they should do, cancelled out in the necessary places, and due to this the topology of the abstract lines changed. The lines certainly appear to 'reconnect' or cross, but there is a good reason for that, they cancel out and form a neutral points. No energy release involved.

What this has to do withmagnetic reconnection is beyond me, and i really think you need to check upon what is thought to happen in magnetic reconnection, becasue this is certainly not it.


That equation is satisfied for the field Zig and I have posted. Do you or do you not dispute that?

1) Yes or no?


Yes. I was referring to the idea of open magnetic fields and how they cant exist according to Maxwell, and your field is not an open configuration. Helps if you read my posts, or the links i have provided you with. Since you seem unable to, i'll just have to copy some of the necissary material.



Do you agree that given a magnetic field, we can unambiguously draw the field lines and use them to answer the question of whether two points are or are not connected by a field line? And do you further agree that the plot I posted above is correct for that field, and that it shows that as we vary the values of a and b over time, some pairs of points go from being connected by a field line to not connected by a field line (and some other pairs the opposite)?

2) Yes or no?


Yes. Although instead of saying "we can unambiguously draw the field lines and use them to answer the question of whether two points are or are not connected by a field line?" It may be better terminology to just make sure that someone reading this is aware that there is nothing actually physically connecting these two points, as you wording certainly implies.



The statement we are discussing is whether the magnetic field lines for a magnetic field which satisfies ∇ · B = 0 can reconnect. There is nothing ill-defined or "erroneous" about that question. It doesn't make any difference if the lines physically exist - the field exists, and given a field we can draw field lines and see what they do. We have given you an example of such a field. Do you or do you not dispute that the lines of the field Zig and I posted reconnect? (This is the same question as 2).)

3) Yes or no?


Yes, the lines appear to reconnect, just as they do in any model of a standard neutral point. Given the definition of what field lines are representing, it would not make any sense for them to not. A simple interaction between solenoid fields can easily demonstrate this.



The field in question is not a mathematical model - it is a physical field configuration which satisfies Maxwell's equations, and which we could create in a lab (and has been, many many times). Do you agree that magnetic reconnection - which means that the MAGNETIC FIELD LINES associated with a physical magnetic field RECONNECT - can occur? If you have answered "yes" to the other three questions, the answer to this one must also be yes - but consistency is not your strong suit, so...

4) Yes or no?


In your example, the topology of the lines describing the vector field do appear to reconnect, Yes. And there is a simple reason for that: cancelling opposite and equal magnitudes of a vector field. And as far as i am aware, this process releases no energy.

Well, now you've demonstrated once again you completely fail to grasp what is actually claimed to occur in magnetic reconnection, and the difference between this process and the simple act of cancelling out lines that represent a vector field.


In this magnetic reconnection configuration, the field lines are bent tightly like the elastic strings of a catapult. When the field lines suddenly straighten, they supposedly fling out plasma in opposite directions. The reason that they suddenly straighten is assumed to be the second term in the MHD pressure equation, i.e,

∇(p + B2/2μo) − (B∇)B/μ0 = 0.

For a start off, Alfvén addressed this point by noting that the second term in this relationship is equivalent to the pinch effect that is caused by electric currents.

Heres a basic configuration thought to cause energy release in a magnetic reconnection process;


180px-Reconn.jpg



The standard explanation of reconnection (above picture) is that magnetic field lines 1 and 2 move in from the left and from the right, and eventually come together (short circuit) at the central point. There they change their structure: The two top halves join (reconnect) and move up, ultimately reaching the position of line 3, while the two bottom halves join and form the line that later moves to position 4.

Although the proposed reconnection mechanism changes the topology of the magnetic field, it does not explicitly reduce the strength of any part of the magnetic field. Thus, it cannot liberate magnetic energy that is stored in that field.

Lines 1, 2, 3, and 4 are magnetic field lines and, as such, cannot move or “reach the neutral line.” An additional error is made in assuming that plasma is “attached” to those lines and will be bulk transported (which is shown by the dashed paths in the above picture) by this movement of the magnetic lines.

One source explains reconnection as being caused by the breaking of magnetic field lines. “Magnetic reconnection is a fundamental physical process occurring in a magnetized plasma, whereby magnetic field lines are effectively broken and reconnected, resulting in a change of magnetic topology, conversion of magnetic field energy into bulk kinetic energy and particle heating

Proposing that magnetic field lines move around, break, merge, reconnect, or recombine is an error based on the false assumption that the lines are real entities in the first place. This is an example of reifying an abstract theoretical concept. Field lines are not real-world 3-D entities and thus cannot do anything. Like mathematical singularities, field lines are pure abstractions and cannot be reified into being real 3-D material objects.


The central point in the above picture from which energy is (supposedly) released by magnetic reconnection is a neutral point, one at which the magnetic field strength is zero valued. I've said this before, so Lets break this down a bit.

At the neutral point (or line), the current on the right produces a magnetic field strength vector that is vertically upward. Similarly, the current on the left produces a magnetic field vector that is vertically downward at that point. Therefore, these two field strength vectors sum to zero at the center of the figure, and the strength of the B field at such a neutral point is identically zero.

The energy that is stored at any point in a magnetic field is proportional to the square of the magnitude of the magnetic flux density at that point, i.e.,

[latex]W_{B}=\frac{1}{2\mu_{0}}\int{B^2_{I}}dv[/latex]

where BI is the magnitude of the magnetic field, and dv is a small volume element. Thus, if BI = 0 at any given point, then the stored energy there would be WB = 0. No energy is stored at a neutral point; this is why it is called a neutral or null point. No energy release can occur from any point at which no energy is stored.

This is what it comes down to, either magnetic fields have some new mysterious property that enables them to release energy when the topology of the lines describing the field changes (note that the actual field itself does not change, just the topology of the lines describing the field), or there is a more rational explanation than this using well known plamsa effects.

http://members.cox.net/dascott3/IEEE-TransPlasmaSci-Scott-Aug2007.pdf
However, a large amount of energy can be stored in and released from the surrounding field structure but only if either or both currents, I, take on lower values. This is easily demonstrated in the example in Fig. 2, which is given in the following. The total energy that has been delivered to an electrical element, by time T0 is given by:


[latex]W(t_{0})=\int_{-\infty }^{t_{0}}v(t)i(t)dt.[/latex] ..............(6)


For the case of the flux-linked conductors in the example, i(t) = 2I, and v(t) is the voltage drop across a unit length of the conductor in the direction of i(t). Faraday’s law indicates that;


[latex]v(t)=\frac{d\phi(t)}{dt}[/latex] .................(7)


where Phi ([latex]\phi[/latex] is the total magnetic flux that links the conductors. Thus, the energy that is stored in the magnetic field that surrounds the conductors at time t0 is given by;


[latex]W(t_{0})=\int_{-\infty}^{t_{0}}\frac{d\phi}{dt}i(t)dt=\int_{\phi(-\infty)}^{\phi(t_{v})}id\phi[/latex] ..............(8)


Where the total magnetic flux depends on the current’s amplitude, i.e.,


[latex]\phi(t)=Li(t)[/latex] ..................(9)



The constant of proportionality L is called the inductance, which may be a constant or a function of φ. When a current flows in large regions, this single inductance element L should be replaced by a transmission line, and the situation is then more accurately (but less intuitively) described by partial differential equations [1]. Equations (6)–(9) demonstrate the basic principle that the total energy that is stored magnetically in the infinite volume surrounding the conductors completely depends on the current. That is, using (9), (8) may be written as an integral in terms of only the current. The total energy that will be released from this volume over any time interval is thus clearly a function of the change in current amplitude over that interval.

If these twin currents are disrupted (e.g., by an exploding DL in their path), the field will quickly collapse and liberate all of the stored magnetic energy that is given by (8).

Investigators who prefer to avoid explicit mention of electric current as a primary cause of cosmic energy releases fall back on magnetic reconnection as an explanation.

In certain situations, magnetic reconnection supposedly directly converts magnetic energy into kinetic energy in the form of bidirectional plasma jets. The process is initiated in a narrow source region that is called the “diffusion region.” According to the theory, both resistive and collisionless processes can initiate reconnection. One of the key predicted signatures of collisionless reconnection is the separation between ions and electrons (plasma) in the diffusion region. This separation is said to create a quadrupolar system of Hall currents and, thus, an associated set of Hall magnetic fields. Even here however, it is understood that any released energy comes not from neutral points, lines, or surfaces, where no energy is stored, or bulk movement of plasma but from the surrounding magnetic field structure that depends on those Hall currents for its existence.




The crucial difference between the two explanations is the question of which quantity (time-varying electric current or moving magnetic “lines”) causes energy release from the magnetized plasma.

Alfvén was explicit in his condemnation of the reconnecting concept: “Of course there can be no magnetic merging energy transfer. The most important criticism of the merging mechanism is that by Heikkila, who, with increasing strength, has demonstrated that it is wrong. In spite of all this, we have witnessed, at the same time, an enormously voluminous formalism building up based on this obviously erroneous concept."

So Sol, make your choice now. Either the motion of field lines themselves causes energy release, or like Alfvens interpretation of this phenomenon, a time varying electric field causes it. (And If you choose magnetic field lines, I will expect a quantitive derivation of how a magnetic field line in the process of reconnecting can do something physical like release energy)
 
Last edited:
What are you talking about? How does a standard example of a neutral point between four magnets show magnetic reconnection?

The experiment you just did started with field lines oriented left-right. It ended with field lines oriented north-south. How many time have you and BAC said that was utterly impossible? The "standard example of a neutral point", which you claim to be familiar with, is exactly the crossed-field-lines configuration that Sol has been trying to explain to you.

Energy release: As a supposed expert in the differences between gas and plasma, it should be obvious to you that magnetic fields don't couple to the air, whereas magnetic fields in a plasma do couple to the plasma. What were you expecting, an explosion? How much energy is released, and how does it couple? Those are good questions, but that's a topic for experts, and you have proven yourself for the Nth time not to be an expert. (I've got experts on hand, thanks.)
 
The experiment you just did started with field lines oriented left-right. It ended with field lines oriented north-south. How many time have you and BAC said that was utterly impossible?



None, thats what magnetic fields do. This is nothing to do with what is claimed to be occuring in 'magnetic reconnection'.

The "standard example of a neutral point", which you claim to be familiar with, is exactly the crossed-field-lines configuration that Sol has been trying to explain to you.


Yes, and he's been trying to pass this off saying that it proves magnetic reconnection. :rolleyes:

Anyone knows the difference between the purported 'magnetic reconnection process' and the topology of magnetic field lines when put in certain conditions.

Energy release: As a supposed expert in the differences between gas and plasma, it should be obvious to you that magnetic fields don't couple to the air, whereas magnetic fields in a plasma do couple to the plasma.


Yes, the particles follow the direction of the field, but they are not affected by the lines you put into that field, at all.

You put those lines in.

What if you decided to alter the wavelength between each field line? Say double it? has the plasma just changed its configuration because you changed your parameters?

Lets say you half the wavelength, which will still be describing the same field, just to a higher degree of accuracy. Does this now mean that the plasma has moved closer together?

You see my point, you cant define where the lines are in a physical sense, or apply physical attributes to them, because the lines themselves are abstract theoretical concepts; Field lines are not real-world 3-D entities and thus cannot do anything physical like reconnect or have plasma attached to them.


What were you expecting, an explosion? How much energy is released, and how does it couple? Those are good questions, but that's a topic for experts, and you have proven yourself for the Nth time not to be an expert. (I've got experts on hand, thanks.)


No, i have asked continually for Sol, or anyone, to provide experimental evidence of this breaking, and reconnectiong of magnetic field lines, acting as physical things and releasing large amounts of energy. No-one so far has been able to.

And if you still want to believe the *cough* magnetic reconnection stuff, what do you think is wrong with alfvens electrical explanation based on double layers?
 
Last edited:
None, thats what magnetic fields do. This is nothing to do with what is claimed to be occuring in 'magnetic reconnection'.

Sorry, that's exactly what's claimed to be occurring. That's what I claim, that's what Sol claims, that's what's on posters all around my local space plasma labs, laboratory plasma center, and so on. That's what comes up in our astro colloquiua and astro journal club. The above-described and beaten-to-death process is what physicists call "magnetic reconnection".

If you've been envisioning something different and calling it "reconnection" ... well, no wonder you've been opposed to it. Please figure out exactly what you were thinking of, then come up with a different word for it.

Yes, the particles follow the direction of the field, but they are not affected by the lines you put into that field, at all.

You put those lines in.

So, if we draw the lines, you say "But the lines don't do anything". If we take the lines out, you say "It's not reconnection, I don't see any lines connecting". Huh.

The particles respond to the fields, sure. The field lines are there to help show you where the field vectors point. If you'd rather track particles through a raw vector field, rather than eyeballing them along "lines" using the adiabatic approximation, Sol gave you explicit field equations---go ahead and compute Lorentz forces to your heart's content. You'll compute particle trajectories very similar to the ones you'd have gotten with the field lines.

Y'know, Newton's law/free-body diagrams still work even though the little arrows don't really exist. Mountains, cols, and depressions are still well-defined even though topo lines don't really exist.

No, i have asked continually for Sol, or anyone, to provide experimental evidence of this breaking, and reconnectiong of magnetic field lines, acting as physical things and releasing large amounts of energy. No-one so far has been able to.

It's funny, I thought this has been pointed out to you ten times: http://www.psfc.mit.edu/research/physics_research/vtf/index.html and http://mrx.pppl.gov/ and http://plasma.physics.swarthmore.edu/SSX/ but IIRC you claimed that they were all mistaken.

ETA: And the lines don't "Act as physical things". The fields do act as physical things, the fields push electrons and ions around. The lines are a visualization tool to clarify where the field vectors point. They're a useful tool because the lines always line up with ion trajectories (strictly speaking: the lines fall along the paths taken by the centroids of cyclotron orbits, with different lines corresponding to different starting points) when adiabatic conditions hold.

ETA2: Zeuzzz, where exactly did you learn that "magnetic reconnection" means something other than our description?
 
Last edited:
Sorry, that's exactly what's claimed to be occurring. That's what I claim, that's what Sol claims, that's what's on posters all around my local space plasma labs, laboratory plasma center, and so on.


I can assure you that what Sol drew in those diagrams is not magnetic reconnection.

:)

I take a look back in here to see what the quacks are up to, and what do I see? Bald-faced straight up lies. It's gotten even worse (which I didn't think was possible!).

A long time ago now Zig posted the following magnetic field:

[latex]${\bf B} = a x {\bf \hat y} + b y {\bf \hat x}$[/latex]

x and y are standard Cartesian coordinates in a plane and a and b can be constants or functions of time. This field satisfies Gauss' law for magnetism - its divergence is zero for all a,b. But if you start with (say) a=1 and b=2, and then vary a and b with time until a=2 and b=1, you will see precisely the reconnection phenomenon you just described above.

That's it - an explicit magnetic field configuration which satisfies Maxwell's equations and exhibits reconnection. You knew about this already, so I can only assume you are lying deliberately rather than simply ignorant.



That is what he showed, that the two opposing configurations he showed had a different topology, both of which satisfies Gauss' law for magnetism. This is not magnetic reconnection. No where in this process did he describe how this can release energy, or how these lines actually obtain physical characteristics.



So, if we draw the lines, you say "But the lines don't do anything".


They dont do anything. Just like the centre of gravity of an object doesn't do anything physical.

If we take the lines out, you say "It's not reconnection, I don't see any lines connecting". Huh.


There aren't any lines there for you to take out. Thats the whole point; the lines never existed in the first place, so any connection mechanism based solely on the idea that magnetic field lines exist in 3D space is erroneus from the outset.

The particles respond to the fields, sure. The field lines are there to help show you where the field vectors point. If you'd rather track particles through a raw vector field, rather than eyeballing them along "lines" using the adiabatic approximation, Sol gave you explicit field equations---go ahead and compute Lorentz forces to your heart's content. You'll compute particle trajectories very similar to the ones you'd have gotten with the field lines.


If not identical.

The point is that sol's diagrams are not showing magnetic reconnection, they are showing the topological change in the field lines that occurs in the conditions he outlined. No law is being broken there, and i never claimed that one was. I said that if the net sum of all magnetic flux entering any closed surface is not zero, then ∇ · B = 0 is not satisfied. Sol then proceeded to show the configuration of magnetic field lines involving a neutral point where the topology of the lines changes, but it does not explicitly reduce the strength of any part of the magnetic field. Thus, it cannot liberate magnetic energy that is stored in that field, as is claimed in magnetic reconnection.



It's funny, I thought this has been pointed out to you ten times: http://www.psfc.mit.edu/research/physics_research/vtf/index.html and http://mrx.pppl.gov/ and http://plasma.physics.swarthmore.edu/SSX/ but IIRC you claimed that they were all mistaken.


If you read above, I was the one that first quoted that material at the one place that claims to have acheived magnetic reconnection, MRX. And there is no disputing that they have worked out a way to release energy from plasma in certain energetic conditions, but it likely has nothing to do with magnetic reconnection as they think it occurs. Magnetic confinement fusion, or Alfvens above solution, seem far more likely then the vague notion that magnetic field lines can do physical things. And what a perfect oppertunity this is for you to go and show me the data from all these wonderful experiments of this magentic reconnection occuring and these field lines acting as physical objects. No one else seems able to, so now you have a list of the main sources, that would be a very welcome addition.
 
Last edited:
I can assure you that what Sol drew in those diagrams is not magnetic reconnection.

You can assure as much as you like, but you're wrong. That is precisely magnetic reconnection. Ask any physicist, or read any book or article about it. Look at any image, online or in a book or article, and you will see precisely that configuration. And it's precisely what you and BAC claimed could not happen because of Gauss' law for magnetism. You were dead wrong and you can't admit it.

Now you're shifting your ground. You now admit that reconnection can take place, but you don't think it corresponds to any release of energy when it happens in a plasma. Again, you're wrong.

The reason is quite simple to understand. Imagine you start with a cloud of neutral gas in a magnetic field. To represent the state of the field, you could draw the field lines, and let's imagine starting with the lines regularly spaced and pretty straight (so a constant field). Now ionize the gas, so it becomes a plasma.

Plasmas are extremely good conductors. Imagine for a moment they are perfect conductors. If so, it would be impossible to change the magnetic field locally, because any change in the B field generates an electric field which makes a current flow to resist the change (that's Lenz's law). In a perfect conductor that resistance is perfect, so the B field would be completely frozen. That means the lines could not move relative to the plasma around them - you can think of each line as surrounded by a tube of plasma, and if the line moves, so does the whole tube.

But this cloud of plasma is in a gaseous state, and it can swirl around and mix. If it does so, those tubes will mix together like spaghetti, resulting in a very tangled magnetic field configuration. But the energy density in the field is proportional to the density of lines squared, and so as the tangle gets worse the energy density increases.

At this point we have to remember that the plasma isn't quite a perfect conductor. That means the field lines aren't quite totally stuck, and if two come very close together and there's a lot of energy built up they can merge and reconnect (just as in the example I gave). When that happens one of the tangles has been undone, the energy density decreases, and lots of energy gets released.

That's all there is to it.
 
Last edited:
I agree Zeuzzz, there have been attempts to say what some people here are thinking when they use the term 'magnetic reconnection', why not go and tell us what proecss that you think is impossible?

Maybe that would be a clearer way to discussion.

BTW do you agree with the characterization that so far the acceleration of partciles in the solar wind is 'mainstream' astrophysics? If not what does plasma cosmology use as a model that is not being used in standard plasma physics as used by mainstream astrophysics? In regards to the solar wind?

Because I think that a discussion is occuring here.

I asked for something that was explained by plasma cosmology or EM forces that was not explained in standard astrophysics minus dark matter.

You have mentioned that you felt the acceleration of the ions in the solar wind would meet this criteria, not being part of standard astrophysics. But some here, Ben M. , have suggested that these are processes used in mainstream astrophysics. So is it possible that the phenomena you pointed to is a phenomena that is part of plasma physics already incorporated into mainstream astrophysics?

Is this a reasonable line of discussion to you, I am saying that plasma is important. I am saying that perhaps there is accepted overlap?

I understand that the goals have moved and I accept that, I asked specifically what phenomena could not be explained by standard mainstream astrophysics involving gravity minus dark matter, that could be explained by plasma cosmology or however you want to style yourself. However this would appear to be something where you and the mainstream are in agreement and it does not involve dark matter.
 
I can assure you that what Sol drew in those diagrams is not magnetic reconnection.

Well, this is a fun argument! Zeuzzz can take any physics term, reinterpret it so that it means something stupid, then call it stupid. Let me try it: "Helium is an element with atomic number 19. You are a moron for thinking that helium is a noble gas." "I can assure you that chihuahuas are not, as Sol says, small dogs. You are all idiots for not recognizing the danger of antibiotic-resistant chihuahuas in the nation's hospitals." "I can assure you that a large body of compressed ice sliding down a mountain under plastic flow is not a glacier. My point was: the physics community has ignored possibility of glacier-antiglacier pairs being produced at the LHC."

You've got two or three Ph.D. physicists (me, Sol, maybe Zig?) disagreeing with you. Every time I have said "magnetic reconnection" I have been talking about the same phenomenon in Sol's diagram---a change in the configuration of the fields from aligned, to quadrupole, to aligned. Every time I have attended a colloquium on CMEs, they have been talking about that phenomenon.

What phenomenon are you talking about? Something where field lines are physical objects that snap around like rubber bands? Doesn't happen. Case closed. We're in agreement on that.
 
You can assure as much as you like, but you're wrong. That is precisely magnetic reconnection. Ask any physicist, or read any book or article about it. Look at any image, online or in a book or article, and you will see precisely that configuration. And it's precisely what you and BAC claimed could not happen because of Gauss' law for magnetism. You were dead wrong and you can't admit it.


Hmmm, i think you are confusing what we mean by 'magnetic reconnection' with canceling magnetic field vectors in a simple field diagram, which just brings two lines together as they cancel. I'm sure that magnetic field vectors doing this do not violate maxwells laws, as you demonstrated.

You now admit that reconnection can take place, but you don't think it corresponds to any release of energy when it happens in a plasma. Again, you're wrong.


The only thing reconneting is in your mind. The magnetic field lines you are using to claim that magnetic reconnection can occur are areas where two points on the vector field cancel out, and so the separate lines appear to reconnect as they are the summation of the two points.


If so, it would be impossible to change the magnetic field locally, because any change in the B field generates an electric field which makes a current flow to resist the change (that's Lenz's law). In a perfect conductor that resistance is perfect, so the B field would be completely frozen.


Perfect conductor? There is no such things as a perfect conductor, and so no B fields can be completely frozen in because of this.

Astrophysicists often assume that plasmas are perfect conductors, and as such, any magnetic field in any plasma must be “frozen” inside it. (This rigid attachment is assumed in the magnetic reconnection mechanism that is discussed in Section IV.) Indeed, it was plasma pioneer Alfvén who first proposed this idea. It was based on the observation that, since plasmas were thought to be perfect conductors, they cannot sustain electric fields. Alfvén’s original motivation for proposing “frozen-in” fields stemmed from another one of Maxwell’s equations, i.e,

[latex]{\nabla}.E=-\frac{dB}{dt}[/latex]

This implies that if the electric field in a region of plasma is identically zero valued (as it would have to be if the medium had zero resistance—perfect conductivity), then any magnetic field within that region must be time invariant (must be frozen).
Thus, if all plasmas are ideal conductors (and thus cannot support electric fields), then any magnetic fields inside such plasmas must be frozen in, i.e., cannot move or change in any way with time.

The electrical conductivity of any material, including plasma, is determined by two main factors, namely: 1) the density of the population of available charge carriers (free ions and electrons) in the medium and 2) the mobility of these carriers. Most, if not all, cosmic plasmas are magnetized (contain large and long internal magnetic fields). In any such plasma, the transverse (perpendicular to this field) mobility of charge carriers is severely restricted because of the spinning motion that is imposed on their momentum by Lorentz force (3). Mobility in the parallel (and antiparallel) direction, being unaffected by this transverse force, is extremely high because electrons and ions have long mean-free paths in such plasmas. However, the density (the number per unit volume) of these charge carriers may not be at all high, particularly, if the plasma is a very low pressure (diffused) one. Therefore, conductivity is less than ideal, even in the longitudinal direction, in cosmic plasma.

Laboratory measurements demonstrate that a nonzero-valued electric field in the direction of the current (Eparallel > 0) is required to produce a nonzero current density within any plasma no matter what mode of operation the plasma is in. Negative-slope regions of the volt-ampere characteristic (negative dynamic resistance) of a plasma column reveal the cause of the filamentary properties of plasma, but all static resistance values are measured to be > 0.
Thus, although plasmas are excellent conductors, they are not perfect conductors. Weak longitudinal electric fields can and do exist inside plasmas. Therefore, magnetic fields are not frozen inside them.

When, in his acceptance speech of the 1970 Nobel Prize in physics, Alfvén pointed out that this frozen-in idea, which he had earlier endorsed, was false, many astrophysicists chose not to listen. In reality, magnetic fields do move with respect to cosmic plasma cells and, in doing so, induce electric currents. This mechanism (which generates electric current) is one cause of the phenomena that is described by what is now called plasma cosmology.

Alfvén said, “I thought that the frozen-in concept was very good from a pedagogical point of view, and indeed it became very popular. In reality, however, it was not a good pedagogical concept but a dangerous ‘pseudo pedagogical concept.’ By ‘pseudo pedagogical’ I mean a concept which makes you believe that you understand a phenomenon whereas in reality you have drastically misunderstood it.”



Hows about you just read the publication in the IEEE Journal of Plasma Physics that i keep quoting, and tell me the obvious mistake in their work, as it concludes that magnetic reconnection can not occur, and provides numerous reasons why this is the case.



That means the lines could not move relative to the plasma around them - you can think of each line as surrounded by a tube of plasma, and if the line moves, so does the whole tube.


You are talking about magnetic field lines here? having plasma wrapped around them?

:D

Think about what you just said.


At this point we have to remember that the plasma isn't quite a perfect conductor. That means the field lines aren't quite totally stuck, and if two come very close together and there's a lot of energy built up they can merge and reconnect (just as in the example I gave). When that happens one of the tangles has been undone, the energy density decreases, and lots of energy gets released.

That's all there is to it.


Scientific statement of the day from Sol: "one of the tangles has been undone, the energy density decreases, and lots of energy gets released.

That's all there is to it.
"

Care to put some numbers to your "tangle"? (whatever a tangle is)
 
Last edited:
Just a quick interjection.

I must say that these "plasma cosmology v mainstream" threads are great fun for lurkers like me. They are very educational and at the same time very entertaining - they have a weird sort of drama to them. Thanks to you all - carry on!

Dog
 
Zeuzzz. Just butting in here for a clarification - Is your definition of magnetic reconnection something like the following?
  • There is a magnetic field line.
  • Something "cuts" the magnetic field line in two.
  • The two magnetic field lines then move around independently.
  • Something causes the two magnetic field lines to come together again and reconnect.
If this is not correct then could you provide your definition of magnetic reconnection?
 
BTW do you agree with the characterization that so far the acceleration of partciles in the solar wind is 'mainstream' astrophysics? If not what does plasma cosmology use as a model that is not being used in standard plasma physics as used by mainstream astrophysics? In regards to the solar wind?


The origin of solar wind acceleration is a question that has been attempted to be solved many times my mainstream astronomers, and many different models have been proposed, but thats the problem, theres over twenty completely separate ones, and they cant all be right.

What standard physics does not use is the effects of charge build up in space, and the E-fields and potentials this produces.

I wrote this elsewhere on another forum recently, and does well to outline the EU explanation for the acceleration of the Ions (primarily protons) in the solar wind;


The standard model of the sun states that the sun generates all its energy from the core, and that via photons and convection this radiates outwards before leaving the surface of the sun. Of course no-one has been able to see into the sun, but lacking any other reasonable model about how the sun functions, astronomers have generally accepted this one as being true. The standard solar model sneaks in a subtle assumption, that the ‘surface’ of the sun is the top of the convection zone and is the final stage of the mechanism that makes the sun shine. But this is not true. The top is only the photosphere, next we go to the chromosphere which is hotter and 2000-3000 km in length. The standard model does not predict its existence. Above the chromosphere is an extended glowing plasma structure we know as the corona, and beyond the corona an invisible plasmasphere extends many times the distance of the planet Pluto made up of charged ions in the ‘solar wind’. (The phrase solar wind is a misnomer; a flow of ions constitutes an electrical current, not a wind. We do not speak of an electric ‘wind’ flowing in our wires at home)

Ralph Juergens was the first to propose this idea that the sun sits as the focus of not only the planets but also a large plasmasphere. Due to its size the sun has a large electric capacitance; this capacitance receives charge from birkeland currents that exist in our arm of the galaxy. The sun thus exhibits a relatively high voltage.

The current standard model explanation of the sun is falsified by the fact that any source of radiant energy is supposed to obey the inverse square law, so the corona should not be hotter than the surface of the sun. However the ES model predicts the temperature minimum.

It does this by showing that charged particles are not much affected by external electrostatic forces when they are within the photosphere, only diffusion motion and Brownian motion occurs. Temperature is simply the measurement of the general kinetic energy of particles, so the 5800K temperatures there seems to fit. This means that the ions have their maximum potential energy when they are in this photospheric plasma; however their mechanical energy is relatively low. At a certain point when a +ve ion randomly moves out of the photosphere and into the electric field (voltage gradient) it will result in it being accelerated outwards. The particles are basically transferring the high electrical potential energy they had in the sun into kinetic energy by gaining an extremely high outwards radial velocity. In this region between the photosphere and lower chromosphere the ions become very organised (parallel) and they are much more diffuse, thus their temperature, which is a measurement of their random motion, drops to a minimum. When these rapidly travelling particles travel through the chromosphere they move beyond the outwardly directed e-field force that has been accelerating them, (ie, they have reached the bottom of the hill and are now moving much faster than they were at the top). Because of their kinetic energy any collisions at this point involve a lot of energy, and create high amplitude random motions, therefore ‘re-thermalizing’ these ions to a much higher temperature as they react with each other after gaining their original burst of energy.

The Z-pinch effect of current filaments is arc mode plasmas is very strong, and the effect of these forces on the suns surface would be strong enough to fuse atoms. Whatever nuclear fusion is taking place is likely taking place in the double layer above the top of the photosphere, not deep within its core. The products of this fusion process are the ‘metals’ that give rise to the absorption line in the solar spectrum and the other particles that we can detect.



I should point out that although this model gives a view much more consistant with plasma cosmology than standard cosmology, this particular concept has not been addressed yet in publications by plasma universe proponents, it is a relatively new proposal, but one I can certainly see the merits of.


You have mentioned that you felt the acceleration of the ions in the solar wind would meet this criteria, not being part of standard astrophysics. But some here, Ben M. , have suggested that these are processes used in mainstream astrophysics.


I'm afraid that Ben is mistaken, this has been an outstanding problem in solar physics for quite a while now. The trouble is that many separate solutions have been offered in the literature, but none of them has been experimentally verified in any way. Use of various types of waves, solitions, annihilations, and other methods have been proposed, but these are all very theoretical.


So is it possible that the phenomena you pointed to is a phenomena that is part of plasma physics already incorporated into mainstream astrophysics?


I dont think so, they are not using the charge separation that results from double layers, and the resultant accelerating E-field that this produces. They have mostly been taught that charge separation can not occur in space, and so this relitively complex and vital aspect of E-field generation in plamsa is not included as one of the potential solutions.



Is this a reasonable line of discussion to you, I am saying that plasma is important. I am saying that perhaps there is accepted overlap?


If someone can find me an acceleration process that has been proposed that is not based on "magnetic reconnection", mysterious new properties of magnetism that have never been experimentally verified, or theoretical waves that can not be detected, then I will certainly consider its effects. But so far, from what i have seen, the proposed solutions mainstream astronomers seem to have come up with for this problem are dubious at best.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm, i think you are confusing what we mean by 'magnetic reconnection' with canceling magnetic field vectors in a simple field diagram, which just brings two lines together as they cancel. I'm sure that magnetic field vectors doing this do not violate maxwells laws, as you demonstrated.

No, Zeuzzz, you simply don't know the meaning of the terms you use. Reconnection is the phenomenon where two points which were not connected by a B field line suddenly become connected, or the other way around. That's why it's called re-connection.

Here's a nice animation of it occurring. Note that this is simply the output of a computer simulation of Maxwell's equations in plasma. See how it looks just like the field configuration I plotted? See all that energy being released?

http://www.glue.umd.edu/~drake/movies/reconn_hall.avi

Perfect conductor? There is no such things as a perfect conductor, and so no B fields can be completely frozen in because of this.

That's what I said (about plasmas), yes.

Hows about you just read the publication in the IEEE Journal of Plasma Physics that i keep quoting, and tell me the obvious mistake in their work, as it concludes that magnetic reconnection can not occur, and provides numerous reasons why this is the case.

If it concludes reconnection cannot occur it's obviously wrong, as we have just been through.

[You are talking about magnetic field lines here? having plasma wrapped around them?

Yep.

Think about what you just said.

I think you should take your own advice.

Scientific statement of the day from Sol: "one of the tangles has been undone, the energy density decreases, and lots of energy gets released.

That's all there is to it.
"

Care to put some numbers to your "tangle"? (whatever a tangle is)

The answer to that is quite complex, and probably isn't fully known. I could take a guess based on dimensional analysis, but unless I thought about it more carefully it would remain a guess.

Both numerical simulations (like the link above) and experiments have measured the energy release.

Anyway, now you're squirming around and flipflopping yet again. You admit reconnection happens, you admit it releases energy, and you're just questioning how much. Well, that's a good question, but it's a far cry from where we started.

Just admit you were wrong - it will feel good. Even BAC admitted the sun is powered by fusion after we showed him how utterly absurd the electric sun idea is. Your position has been totally demolished, and that's obvious to everyone reading this thread - including you.
 
Last edited:
Perfect conductor? There is no such things as a perfect conductor, and so no B fields can be completely frozen in because of this.

Actually, there are. They're called superconductors, and they do indeed trap magnetic flux. But that's an aside. Magnetic fields in conductors have a decay time unless driven by an external force. That decay time is inversely proportional to the resistance of the conductor. So while a non-ideal conductor will not have completely persistent magnetic fields, the time scale for decay can be quite long. And given that the resistance of a conductor scales inversely with its linear dimensions, we can see that the characteristic time scale for decay of a mangetic field in a plasma is proportional to its size. So for many purposes (in other words, depending on what your time scale of interest is), very large plasmas will behave as if their magnetic fields are frozen in.

Hows about you just read the publication in the IEEE Journal of Plasma Physics that i keep quoting, and tell me the obvious mistake in their work,

I already pointed out one obvious mistake they made, but you have this habbit of not remembering when errors have been pointed out to you. They say, "Note that no electric currents exist near or at the neutral point. If they did, the point would no longer be magnetically neutral." This is obviously and trivially falsified by noting that the magnetic field in the center of a circular wire with uniform current density is zero. It's magnetically neutral, but it's got a current. More generally, current only requires that the curl be nonzero. But the curl can be nonzero even at points where the field itself is zero. The example I just gave is one such case. The field I gave earlier is another example, where the current is nonzero at the origin for a != b.
 
Zeuzzz. Just butting in here for a clarification - Is your definition of magnetic reconnection something like the following?
  • There is a magnetic field line.
  • Something "cuts" the magnetic field line in two.
  • The two magnetic field lines then move around independently.
  • Something causes the two magnetic field lines to come together again and reconnect.
If this is not correct then could you provide your definition of magnetic reconnection?


No, i think that you need to outline what you think magnetic reconnection is, because from what i've seen so far, you seem to be confused with standard magnetic field topologies and magnetic field lines breaking and reconnecting to each other, ie, "magnetic reconnection".

Just outline what magnetic reconnection is in a few simple sentences, and i'll pick out where the problem is.
 

The Z-pinch effect of current filaments is arc mode plasmas is very strong, and the effect of these forces on the suns surface would be strong enough to fuse atoms. Whatever nuclear fusion is taking place is likely taking place in the double layer above the top of the photosphere, not deep within its core. The products of this fusion process are the ‘metals’ that give rise to the absorption line in the solar spectrum and the other particles that we can detect.
I might be being totally stupid here but... if fusion takes place away from the core, how do we get hydrostatic equilibrium?
 
I think that Zuezzz's position on magnetic reconnection is largely formed by the following paragraphs in the paper that he quotes
The standard explanation of reconnection (Fig. 1) is that magnetic field lines 1 and 2 move in from the left and from the right, and eventually come together (short circuit) at the central point. There they change their structure: The two top halves join (reconnect) and move up, ultimately reaching the position of line 3, while the two bottom halves join and form the line that later moves to position 4.
However, lines 1, 2, 3, and 4 are magnetic field lines and, as such, cannot move or “reach the neutral line.” In addition, there must be currents or current sheets that are not shown in Fig. 1 since curved magnetic fields cannot exist without them (see Section V). An additional error is made in assuming that plasma is “attached” to those lines and will be bulk transported, as shown by the dashed paths in Fig. 1, by this movement of the magnetic lines.
...snip...
Proposing that magnetic field lines move around, break, merge, reconnect, or recombine is an error based on the false assumption that the lines are real entities in the first place. This is an example of reifying an abstract theoretical concept. Field lines are not real-world 3-D entities and thus cannot do anything. Like mathematical singularities, field lines are pure
abstractions and cannot be reified into being real 3-D material objects

Figure 1 is the similar to the diagrams previously posted here with 1, 2, 3 and 4 labeling the magnetic field curves in the 4 quadrants.

I am fairly sure that magnetic field lines move when the magnetic field changes.
 

Back
Top Bottom