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Something new under the sun

In that image a field line that clearly went from one edge of the plot to another meets one doing the same thing but going in the opposite direction. Both break open and then reconnect with it's opposite counterpart, creating a field line that comes in one edge and goes out the same edge. Sorry, but for that to topologically happen, there has to be an instant when the field line is open within the boundaries of the plot ... violating Gauss' law.

:)

I take a look back in here to see what the quacks are up to, and what do I see? Bald-faced straight up lies. It's gotten even worse (which I didn't think was possible!).

A long time ago now Zig posted the following magnetic field:

[latex]${\bf B} = a x {\bf \hat y} + b y {\bf \hat x}$[/latex]

x and y are standard Cartesian coordinates in a plane and a and b can be constants or functions of time. This field satisfies Gauss' law for magnetism - its divergence is zero for all a,b. But if you start with (say) a=1 and b=2, and then vary a and b with time until a=2 and b=1, you will see precisely the reconnection phenomenon you just described above.

That's it - an explicit magnetic field configuration which satisfies Maxwell's equations and exhibits reconnection. You knew about this already, so I can only assume you are lying deliberately rather than simply ignorant.

Why are you telling lies, BAC?
 
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In that image a field line that clearly went from one edge of the plot to another meets one doing the same thing but going in the opposite direction. Both break open and then reconnect with it's opposite counterpart, creating a field line that comes in one edge and goes out the same edge. Sorry, but for that to topologically happen, there has to be an instant when the field line is open within the boundaries of the plot ... violating Gauss' law.

According to BAC, you apparently think you can violate Gauss's law with refrigerator magnets. Start with this:

...........................
...........................
...........................
.....NS.......NS.......
...........................
...........................
...........................

Draw the field lines in the middle. Introduce two more magnets, slowly, until you have this:

.............N...........
.............S............
...........................
.....NS.......NS.......
...........................
.............N.............
.............S.............

And withdraw the original magnets:

.............N...........
.............S............
...........................
............................
...........................
.............N.............
.............S.............

And draw the field lines. Seriously, take four magnets off of your fridge and try it. Good heavens! You must have violated Gauss's law! Quick, call the Monopole Response Unit and get scrubbed down!
 
The effect on a partially ionized plasma would be VERY DIFFERENT for as Alfven states very clearly and you ignore ‘If the particle is a neutral hydrogen atom, it is acted upon only by the solar gravitation (the effect of a magnetic field upon a possible atomic magnetic moment being negligible).’, so a partially ionized plasma would not respond to EM forces at a ratio of 10^7 against gravity.
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I agree. My sentence is ambiguous. I wrote:
iantresman said:
Hannes Alfvén compares the two forces on a charged particles in a partially ionized plasma, and finds electromagnetic forces are dominant by a factor of 10,000,000.
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The comparison is electromagnetic and gravitational forces on the ion, not a comparison with partially ionized plasma. I should have written:

iantresman said:
"In a partially ionized plasma, Hannes Alfvén compares..."
.
Which still leaves room for improvement as he was comparing an ion with a neutral. But the gravitational force on a neutral hydrogen atom will be almost the same as that on an ion as their masses are similar. What I'm trying to say is that the (moving) ion, compared to the neutral, (in a magnetic field) is influenced by electromagnetism far more than gravity.

I did also gave a couple of references which indicate that a partially ionized plasma (than 1% or less) may be considered a plasma, in which case electromagnetic forces are significant.

So yes, I'm guilty of a bad explanation and over-generalization.
 
:)

I take a look back in here to see what the quacks are up to, and what do I see? Bald-faced straight up lies.
.

Open field lines violate Maxwell's equations. Whatever reconnection is, it does not involved open (ie. broken) field lines, even though the name suggests just that.

You don't need to insult people just because they understand the process in a differently way to you.

This is my last post.
 
Open field lines violate Maxwell's equations.

That depends entirely by what you mean by "open". The reason real physicists use equations is to avoid that sort of ambiguity.

Whatever reconnection is, it does not involved open (ie. broken) field lines, even though the name suggests just that.

Now "open" has become "broken".

Why don't you try sketching the field in my post above and see for yourself what happens. You might also check that it satisfies Gauss' law for magnetism (which is the only one of Maxwell's equations that might have forbidden this process).

You don't need to insult people just because they understand the process in a differently way to you.

Sorry, but this is not a question of a different "understanding" of the process. BAC said: "Sorry, but for that to topologically happen, there has to be an instant when the field line is open within the boundaries of the plot ... violating Gauss' law."

That's just plain false, and in fact it's probably a lie, because he's already been shown this solution.
 
Not to mention, that even if the charge on the Sun were actually 100C and the excess charge on the Pioneer probe (remember the first topic of this thread?) were 1C, then the force of electrostatic interaction would be too weak by 107 or 10,000,000 times to account for the Pioneer Anomaly!

All the calculations are outlined right here in post #465, and - surprise, surprise - not one of the EU-PU woo even acknowledged said calculation except to spin some nonsense about how the Sun must have much more charge on it.


LOL! This guy is hilarious! He says that no-one awknowledged his calculation, but I already did the exact calculation he is talking about before, and concluded that electrostatics could not account for the force, unless the sun was at a very large charge. For a start off, no-one ever claimed a charge on the sun could, this was a thread about the pioneer anomaly, so i just did the calculation to see what value of charge could account for the acceleration, and it couldn't.

Although my calculation was slightly different to yours, I used two variables for the charge and subbed in the force from the known anomalous acceleration using a rearrangement of coulombs law, and finding F from F=ma. In mine you could choose either the charge of the sun, or the spacecraft, but simple electrostatics could not account for it, by quite a few orders of magnitude. Our results are in the same ball park.

How this has anything to do with falsifying the electric sun idea is beyond me. The charge on the spacecraft that far out would be very small (anything between 1.6x10-19 to about 1.6x10-9 C I would imagine) and so even if the sun had a charge of trillions of coulombs, it could not account for the pioneer anomaly. And you say that the charge on the spacecraft could be 1 C in your calculation? do you have any idea how much force that would apply to it? it would quite literally explode. :D I thought you would have known better than that.

Saying that a charge on the sun could not account for the acceleration of pioneer is a far cry from falsifying the electric sun theory.

He has me on ignore, so he'll never realize what a tit he is making of himself, which i'm quite happy to keep demonstrating :)


I point out some of the stupid assumptions in Mattus' calculation, point out that I already did this calculation before anyway (here) and concluded myself that this force was largely negligable, point out that the pioneer anomaly is not even really applicable to the ES theory, and that the value he used for the charge on the spacecraft would quite literally make it explode.

And also, which really shows he doesn't know what he's on about, I then point out that Mattus seems to think that the value of electrostatic charge on a star of 100 Coulombs is what EU proponents think, he goes around shouting how absolutely insane this value is and how woo EU is, but he fails to realise this is the value accepted by conventional astronomers for a charge on the sun. (link).
 
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:)

I take a look back in here to see what the quacks are up to, and what do I see? Bald-faced straight up lies. It's gotten even worse (which I didn't think was possible!).

A long time ago now Zig posted the following magnetic field:

[latex]${\bf B} = a x {\bf \hat y} + b y {\bf \hat x}$[/latex]

x and y are standard Cartesian coordinates in a plane and a and b can be constants or functions of time. This field satisfies Gauss' law for magnetism - its divergence is zero for all a,b. But if you start with (say) a=1 and b=2, and then vary a and b with time until a=2 and b=1, you will see precisely the reconnection phenomenon you just described above.

That's it - an explicit magnetic field configuration which satisfies Maxwell's equations and exhibits reconnection. You knew about this already, so I can only assume you are lying deliberately rather than simply ignorant.



This ehibits reconnection? you sure Sol?

You might want to look at the wikipedia page on magnetic reconnection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_reconnection, I dont think you will find that this happens. And maybe you could add some sources, it hasn't had any for months now, and may have to be deleted.

also check this; http://members.cox.net/dascott3/IEEE-TransPlasmaSci-Scott-Aug2007.pdf

I have my doubts, and i'll explain later....
 
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I agree. My sentence is ambiguous. I wrote:

.
The comparison is electromagnetic and gravitational forces on the ion, not a comparison with partially ionized plasma. I should have written:


.
Which still leaves room for improvement as he was comparing an ion with a neutral. But the gravitational force on a neutral hydrogen atom will be almost the same as that on an ion as their masses are similar. What I'm trying to say is that the (moving) ion, compared to the neutral, (in a magnetic field) is influenced by electromagnetism far more than gravity.

I did also gave a couple of references which indicate that a partially ionized plasma (than 1% or less) may be considered a plasma, in which case electromagnetic forces are significant.
They are significant for the ionised particles in the aggregate reffered to as the plasma, they are not significant for the aggregate.

That is an error of comparison, I would say in my rather bloated and exagerated opinion
So yes, I'm guilty of a bad explanation and over-generalization.


Okay , I can be glas you are seeing the error there but why then do you state
"In a partially ionized plasma, Hannes Alfvén compares..." , becuase from what I understand he is not comparing a 'partially ionised plasma', he is comparing a ionised atom of hydrogen to a neutral atom of hydrogen?

And you above stated

"But the gravitational force on a neutral hydrogen atom will be almost the same as that on an ion as their masses are similar."

But the quation has two very specific parameters, thie strenth of the magnetic field represented by the distance from the sun, because it is the magnetic field strenth at that point, the velocity becuse some the effect is motion dependant.

So I ask you this Ian, and believe me, I am glad you are talking to me and that we are discussing here, why do you state this as some sort of general case for 'partially ionised plasma'?

1. It is not the same for the aggregate of a mass of partially charged plasma. Many of the hydrogen atoms will not be ionised and so they are not responding to the EM force. The ratio of Em/G~0 , not 10^7.
2. Comparing the gravitationa forces as though they are similar to the EM forces is what the statement by Alfven is about but they are not the same even when equal in magnitude due to the direction of the vector representing the acceleration.
3. The magnetic field and the distance from the source of gravitation is crucial. Closer to the source of gravitation and the origin of the magnetic field things will change, farther away they will change and the ration will rise and fall, it is not a general ration but totally dependant upon that parameter.
4. The motion of the atom is crucial in comparing the EM force as well, if it is a higher velocity it will change (I think increase) and if it is lower then it will change (I think decrease).

So what I am saying is that you can not go from Alfven statement about the atom's relative ratio to a generalised statement about a partially ionised plasma because that is an error of comparison.

Yes the effect on the atom is significant, yes the effect on a mostly(>50% with rising significance) ionised plasma is significant.

But it is not a huge or significan effect in an unstated ration of partial ionization and especially in a 1% ionised plasma.


I am trying to say that you statement about partially ionised plasmas is not an accurate one, and especially it is not what Alfven said, so you should not attribute it to him.

I am sorry if I am getting snarky again.
 
Hi ZueZZ, do you have something yet, where EM forces acoount for something that the mainstream model can not? So that we can put some numbers to it and see if it matches the observable data?

:)
 
This ehibits reconnection? you sure Sol?

Yes.

You might want to look at the wikipedia page on magnetic reconnection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_reconnection, I dont think you will find that this happens.

Zeuzzz - PLOT THE FIELD. It looks EXACTLY like the one in that wiki article.

I'll even do it for you: here are three plots of [latex]${\bf B} = a x {\bf \hat y} + b y {\bf \hat x}$[/latex].

Going left to right this is b=3,a=1, then b=1,a=1, then b=1, a=3. I've colored the field vectors to make the reconnection easier to see (regions where the field is pointing mostly vertically are colored blue, mostly horizontally are red).


You have three choices - either you can not believe your eyes (in which case plot it yourself and show us), not believe that this field satisfies Maxwell's equations (in which case show us why not), or shut up and admit you were wrong or lying.
 
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Open field lines violate Maxwell's equations.

Nonzero divergence of the magnetic field violates Maxwell's equations. The term "open field lines" is being used multiple ways (in some cases to indicate nonzero divergence, in some cases to indicate field lines leaving the area of interest), and imprecise language is being used to describe processes which are mathematically precisely defined. But that's just semantics, and quibbles over semantics are irrelevant compared to the math. And the math indicates that magnetic reconnection doesn't need to violate Maxwell's equations (in particular, Gauss's law for magnetism).

Whatever reconnection is, it does not involved open (ie. broken) field lines, even though the name suggests just that.

We've been over this. Multiple times. Language may be ambiguous, but the math is not. The process requires no violation of Gauss's law, contrary to the assertions of BAC and Zeuzzz. We've proven this before. It's getting old. That's why you're seeing Sol get annoyed, because PROOF that he's right and Zeuzzz and BAC are wrong has already been posted, and they've simply ignored it.
 
They are significant for the ionised particles in the aggregate reffered to as the plasma, they are not significant for the aggregate.

That is an error of comparison, I would say in my rather bloated and exagerated opinion

Okay , I can be glas you are seeing the error there but why then do you state
"In a partially ionized plasma, Hannes Alfvén compares..." , becuase from what I understand he is not comparing a 'partially ionised plasma', he is comparing a ionised atom of hydrogen to a neutral atom of hydrogen?

And you above stated

"But the gravitational force on a neutral hydrogen atom will be almost the same as that on an ion as their masses are similar."

But the quation has two very specific parameters, thie strenth of the magnetic field represented by the distance from the sun, because it is the magnetic field strenth at that point, the velocity becuse some the effect is motion dependant.

So I ask you this Ian, and believe me, I am glad you are talking to me and that we are discussing here, why do you state this as some sort of general case for 'partially ionised plasma'?

1. It is not the same for the aggregate of a mass of partially charged plasma. Many of the hydrogen atoms will not be ionised and so they are not responding to the EM force. The ratio of Em/G~0 , not 10^7.
2. Comparing the gravitationa forces as though they are similar to the EM forces is what the statement by Alfven is about but they are not the same even when equal in magnitude due to the direction of the vector representing the acceleration.
3. The magnetic field and the distance from the source of gravitation is crucial. Closer to the source of gravitation and the origin of the magnetic field things will change, farther away they will change and the ration will rise and fall, it is not a general ration but totally dependant upon that parameter.
4. The motion of the atom is crucial in comparing the EM force as well, if it is a higher velocity it will change (I think increase) and if it is lower then it will change (I think decrease).

So what I am saying is that you can not go from Alfven statement about the atom's relative ratio to a generalised statement about a partially ionised plasma because that is an error of comparison.

Yes the effect on the atom is significant, yes the effect on a mostly(>50% with rising significance) ionised plasma is significant.

But it is not a huge or significant effect in an unstated ration of partial ionization and especially in a 1% ionised plasma.


I am trying to say that you statement about partially ionised plasmas is not an accurate one, and especially it is not what Alfven said, so you should not attribute it to him.
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I think I agree with most of what you say. The big question, is the degree if influence on a partially ionized plasma, by electromagnetic and gravitational forces, due to the influence of the ions on the non-neutral component. And of course, there will be wildly different results depending on all sorts of criteria. The only reference I can find for now is the following.

".. it is convenient to discuss separately the properties of weakly ionized gases, where the collisions of the charged particles with the neutral gas molecules are the most important, and those of highly ionized gases, where collisions between charged particles play a dominant role. It must then be observed that due to the large effective cross-section for collisions between charged particles, such collisions can be dominant even at a relatively low degree of ionization. Thus, as far as collision processes are concerned, plasmas with degrees of ionization larger than 1 per cent are to be considered as highly ionized." (emphasis in original) Hannes Alfvén and Carl-Gunne Fälthammar, Cosmical Electrodynamics, 2nd Edition, 1963 (p.145)​

It seems to me that if the degree of ionization is around 1% and it is considered to be "highly ionized", then electromagnetic force may be significant (though I have no indication of magnitude, and haven't specified magnetic field strengths, nor relative velocity of charged particles).

In other words, plasmas respond strongly to electromagnetic forces, depending on the forces, and of course the influence by gravity will also depend on its strength.
 
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I think I agree with most of what you say. The big question, is the degree if influence on a partially ionized plasma, by electromagnetic and gravitational forces, due to the influence of the ions on the non-neutral component. And of course, there will be wildly different results depending on all sorts of criteria. The only reference I can find for now is the following.

".. it is convenient to discuss separately the properties of weakly ionized gases, where the collisions of the charged particles with the neutral gas molecules are the most important, and those of highly ionized gases, where collisions between charged particles play a dominant role. It must then be observed that due to the large effective cross-section for collisions between charged particles, such collisions can be dominant even at a relatively low degree of ionization. Thus, as far as collision processes are concerned, plasmas with degrees of ionization larger than 1 per cent are to be considered as highly ionized." (emphasis in original) Hannes Alfvén and Carl-Gunne Fälthammar, Cosmical Electrodynamics, 2nd Edition, 1963 (p.145)​

It seems to me that if the degree of ionization is around 1% and it is considered to be "highly ionized", then electromagnetic force may be significant (though I have no indication of magnitude, and haven't specified magnetic field strengths, nor relative velocity of charged particles).

In other words, plasmas respond strongly to electromagnetic forces, depending on the forces, and of course the influence by gravity will also depend on its strength.

Hi i am glad we are talking as well.

However yet again I notice something and it will take considerable reading on my part to find out more,, your quote from Alfven says right at the begining of a sentence

as far as collision processes are concerned... are to be considered as highly ionized

Now how do yo get from collision processes to electro magnetic forces?

I note that this time you did use the appropriate and cautious 'may', and so that would indicate that you should be careful making statements about EM forces in plasmas that have a very low electron density and comparing them to those that have a higher electron density.

So perhaps most correctly if you are going to refer to 1% ionization as plasmas and they are only 'heavily ionised' in regards to collison processes, then the best statement would be that "some plasmas respond respond strongly to EM forces." That would be a more correct statement because at this point it has not been demonstrated that collision effects correlate to EM response.
 
DD and Ian, I'm not sure what your discussion is getting at. There is no question that particles in a plasma interact electromagnetically. In most cases, this basically translates into a change in the "mean free path"---an ion in a 1-ion-per-cm^3 plasma might have a very short mean free path because it can electromagnetically scatter off of any particle within a Debye length, whereas an atom in a 1-atom-per-cm^3 plasma has a much longer mean free path because it can only scatter off particles within a few nanometers. This has physical consequences which, yes, are already accounted for in standard "gastrophysics". There are also longer-range couplings which introduce phenomena like Alfven waves which are absent in a neutral gas. There is no astrophysics question here, this is again totally standard stuff.

Ian, you don't need to convince us that astrophysical plasmas exist and that they obey standard physical laws. DD, you don't need to convince Ian that plasmas don't exist, or don't have EM interactions at all, or whatever you're getting at.
 
Sorry I am being a very much legalistic wonk, I am over reacting because of prior statements of Ian's, and I am in strong disagreement with them. How ever I am defintiley going overboard.

So far there is nothing magic about plasma that makes it do anything that can explain the stuff that certain (not Ian) PU/PC advocates say it can do. So I am reacting to past statements of Ian's and the statements of others.

Ben M. this is foolish for me to ask because I know it will take three months for me to get even a vague understanding of plasma interaction, is a plasma with 1% ionization 'highly ionised'? I was not able to find that is just an hour of reading, obviously I have overstated my case, and I know I have lot (IE 99.999%) that I don't know, but is that even a meaningful question or statement? It would seem that the density of the plasma,electrons and ions would be very meaningful , so percentage are probably not accurate any way.

I read about the Debye lenth which I have encountered here before (and done some reading) and probably have a smidge knowledge of, I am also have read a lot of others things and I know that I know next to nothing.
 
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Ben M. this is foolish for me to ask because I know it will take three months for me to get even a vague understanding of plasma interaction, is a plasma with 1% ionization 'highly ionised'?

That's like asking "Is a 500 meter mountain 'very high'?" It depends what you're doing with it---climbing it, bulldozing it, falling off of it, etc. Yes, 1% ionization is enough to show some plasma behaviors on some scales. That'd be (I think) an incredibly high degree of ionization for, e.g., a flame or a spark on Earth, but incredibly low for a Lyman-Alpha Forest cloud or a neutron star accretion disk.
 
as far as collision processes are concerned... are to be considered as highly ionized

Now how do yo get from collision processes to electro magnetic forces?
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My understanding, and I am happy to be corrected, is that the ionized component responds strongly to electromagnetic forces (as illustrated by the previous example from Alfvén), and then the ions affect the non-ionized component through collisions. Alfvén actually writes:

When a plasma is only partially ionized, the electromagnetic forces act on the nonionized components only indirectly through the viscosity between the ionized and non-ionized constituents. -- Hannes Alfvén, Cosmic Plasma, (1982) Page 95​

So when Alfvén says in a particular example, that a 1% partially ionized plasma should be treated as if though it was fully ionized, he is implying that we use the equations that model plasmas (eg. magnetohydrodynamics) (I don't have a reference for this), and consequently they will be strongly influenced by electromagnetic forces. As for whether electromagnetic or gravitational forces dominate:

"Stars are dominated by gravitation, but their surface activity is due to electromagnetic forces. Similarly, the interstellar and intergalactic matter are shaped by plasma forces; and galaxies also show plasma collective behavior where long-range forces are gravitational forces acting on a gas of stars. Active stars (pulsars, X-ray binaries, transient sources, etc) and active galactic nuclei appear to be dominated by plasma effects" -- B. Coppi, Attilio Ferrari, Elio Sindoni, Plasmas in the Universe, (2000) in "Astrophysical Plasmas", ISBN 1586030736, (page 1)​
 
Yes.

Zeuzzz - PLOT THE FIELD. It looks EXACTLY like the one in that wiki article.


You mean the same wiki article that has not been able to cite any references on this actually occuring for nearly a year now? OK.


I'll even do it for you: here are three plots of [latex]${\bf B} = a x {\bf \hat y} + b y {\bf \hat x}$[/latex].

Going left to right this is b=3,a=1, then b=1,a=1, then b=1, a=3. I've colored the field vectors to make the reconnection easier to see (regions where the field is pointing mostly vertically are colored blue, mostly horizontally are red).
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2059447e5026c590c3.jpg[/qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2059447e5027561374.jpg[/qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2059447e5027dcf729.jpg[/qimg]

You have three choices - either you can not believe your eyes (in which case plot it yourself and show us), not believe that this field satisfies Maxwell's equations (in which case show us why not), or shut up and admit you were wrong or lying.


Pretty graphs.

I know what is claimed to be happening in magnetic reconnection.

nphys111-f1.gif


You are doing this again Sol, I asked you numerous times to show that this can actually occur, instead you yet again just show the theory of what is supposed to be happening.

Let me tell you how I see it. Magnetic fields are not made up of field lines, every magnetic field is a continuum, a vector field. Each of the infinite points in this continuum has a magnitude, and a direction, that is associated with it. When you draw in field lines, they are not an actual point on the field where anything is different, they are just describing the strength of a section of the field. However, the lines themselves do not actually exist in reality. They are simply a visualization device; a useful way to understand the properties of a vector field. The loci are always endless (closed) loops. They are useful abstractions and nothing more.

You can see this lack of understanding by some of the explanations given on the magnetic reconnection page, lets have a look at some of their vagueness;

The most common type of magnetic reconnection is separator reconnection, in which four separate magnetic domains exchange magnetic field lines.


What exactly is being exchanged here?

field lines on one side of the separatrix all terminate at a particular magnetic pole, while field lines on the other side all terminate at a different pole of similar sign.


Field lines (an abstract tool to help conceptualize a vector field) are now capable of terminating ? Could someone please outline for me what occurs in this 'termination' procedure? what is actually terminating?

It is a violation of an approximate conservation law in plasma physics,


I dont have to comment on that one.

In separator reconnection, field lines enter the separator from two of the domains, and are spliced one to the other


I am not sure I know what "splicing" means, scientifically speaking.

and can concentrate mechanical or magnetic energy in both space and time.


Oh great, not we have energy in an abstract dimension aswell, time.


Domains in a magnetic plasma are separated by separatrix surfaces: curved surfaces in space that divide different bundles of flux.


Just as i thought, the process thought to be releasing energy through magnetic reconnection looks incredibly similar to the setup used in a standard tokamak to achieve confinement fusion.

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200605/000020060506A0116350.php
Method for Detection of Separatrix Surface Using Differential Double Probe

A method of detecting the separatrix surface in the edge plasma in a Tokamak is presented. Two sets of double probes whose front surfaces are shifted by a small distance are mounted and the difference of the currents is measured using a differential amplifier. When the separatrix surface reaches the probes, a current increment appears in the differential amplifier, giving a signal of the arrival of the separatrix. Procedures for obtaining plasma parameters including the ion temperature are also described. (author abst.)


Since magnetic confinement fusion is a well established fusion energy production method, i would find this far more plausable than something based on the vague notion that magnetic field lines can do actual physical things. If you can show me the data of magnetic field lines reconnecting, then that certainly would be interesting. So far no-one seems able to.


At any instant of time, the net sum of all magnetic flux entering any closed surface, usually denoted A, is zero, ie, ∇ · B = 0. Where the field is strong, such as at the poles of an electromagnet, the lines come close together. However, the lines themselves do not actually exist, and so a 'reconnection' process based on the lines themselves doing something physical is an erroneous concept from the start.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1974935/posts
Hannes Alfvén was an electrical engineer who struggled to understand and eliminate the destructive explosions that occurred on high voltage transmission lines in his native Sweden. He determined that the energy being released so calamitously was originally stored in the magnetic fields that surround the electrical currents being transmitted along the lines. Any abrupt interruption of those currents leads to an explosive energy release. He said:

"In the case of the instability leading to the extinction of the current, it should be remembered that every electric circuit is explosive in the sense that if we try to disrupt the current, a release of the whole inductive energy at the point of disruption will occur." - H. Alfvén, Cosmic Plasma, Reidel, Holland, Boston, 1981, p.27.

Alfvén extrapolated his findings about terrestrial power lines to the study of magnetized cosmic plasma. In the case of the disruption of an electric current within such a plasma, he said, “If the current disruption is caused by an instability in the plasma, the inductive energy in the circuit will be released in the plasma. … The disruption of a current through a plasma is often caused by a double layer becoming unstable.”

Astrophysicists ignore Alfvén’s work. They attempt to arrive at a de novo explanation for the release of such energy by embracing the notion that the motion and interaction of magnetic field lines is its root cause. They expound on the (basically false) idea that magnetic fields are ‘frozen into’ plasma, and by moving and breaking, these lines carry the plasma along and spew it out into space.

Alfvén ridiculed this explanation by saying, “A magnetic field line is by definition a line which is everywhere parallel to the magnetic field. If the current system changes, the shape of the magnetic field line changes but it is meaningless to speak about a translational movement of magnetic field lines.” - Alfvén, op cit, p.12. Despite his warnings about this, astrophysicists persist in the notion that moving and interacting magnetic field lines – independent of any electrical current causality – produce the release of energy and plasma during solar flares. They have named this process ‘reconnection’.

The standard explanation of reconnection is that magnetic field lines move and eventually come together (‘short-circuit’) at some point. There they change their structure (reconnect) and move apart. But magnetic field lines as such cannot move or touch each other. A compounding error is made in assuming that plasma is ‘attached’ to those lines and will be bulk transported by this movement of the lines. So in coming up with this novel hypothesis they have reinvented the wheel. But not only is this hypothesis an unnecessary ‘reinvention’, it is based on erroneous concepts and has no clarifying value.

Hannes Alfvén was explicit in his condemnation of the reconnecting concept:

"Of course there can be no magnetic merging energy transfer. Despite.. this, we have witnessed at the same time an enormously voluminous formalism building up based on this obviously erroneous concept." [...........]
 
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You mean the same wiki article that has not been able to cite any references on this actually occuring for nearly a year now? OK.

YOU referenced that article, and claimed that the field configuration I posted did not coincide with the process described by it. Now that it is obvious you were wrong, you are attacking your own reference. Furthermore, not long ago I gave you a list of about 20 papers describing experimental observations of reconnection in a plasma lab, which you ignored.

I know what is claimed to be happening in magnetic reconnection.

No, obviously you do not.

You are doing this again Sol, I asked you numerous times to show that this can actually occur, instead you yet again just show the theory of what is supposed to be happening.

You, BAC, and possibly Ian insisted that Maxwell's equations forbid magnetic reconnection of precisely the type I just illustrated. That was a theoretical, mathematical claim, and it is false. You were wrong, over and over again.

Moreover, if you do not accept that this can occur physically then you do not believe Maxwell's equations are the correct description of EM phenomena. Is that what you are claiming?

Let me tell you how I see it. Magnetic fields are not made up of field lines, every magnetic field is a continuum, a vector field. Each of the infinite points in this continuum has a magnitude, and a direction, that is associated with it. When you draw in field lines, they are not an actual point on the field where anything is different, they are just describing the strength of a section of the field. However, the lines themselves do not actually exist in reality. They are simply a visualization device; a useful way to understand the properties of a vector field. The loci are always endless (closed) loops. They are useful abstractions and nothing more.

That is of course true, as everyone that has ever studied elementary E&M knows. Novertheless, given a magnetic field there is an unambiguous way to draw field lines, and they either re-connect or they don't.

You claimed they could not reconnect, and you were wrong. Now you are trying to hide that by claiming it's not important because field lines are an abstraction, or something.
 
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You are doing this again Sol, I asked you numerous times to show that this can actually occur, instead you yet again just show the theory of what is supposed to be happening.

Do the experiment I showed you with the four magnets. Did the experiment "actually occur"? Good. You have just shown that reconnection can actually occur.
 

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