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Some moral deductions

Huzington

Thinker
Joined
Jun 28, 2003
Messages
191
1. I submit that:

(a) Only what is true is worth believing in;
therefore, if morals are worth believing in, then they must be true.
(b) To be true is to be objectively true;
therefore, morals must be objective facts of the world in order to be worth believing in: i.e., morals cannot be "subjective" or "relative" if they are to be true, to be worth believing in.

I. That to be true is to be objectively true; and that non-objective "truth" is non-truth

(a) If morals are "relative", then it follows that they are outside the realm of objective reality.
(b) If morals have nothing to do with objective reality (if morals are subjective or relative), then they are not true. To be true, to be real, is to be objectively true, objectively real. Only objective veracity can have reality. If morals have any truth whatsoever -- and hence if they are worth believing in -- they must be within that sphere which I call objective reality. Thus they cannot be "subjective" or "relative" if they are to be true, if they are to be meaningful.

2. That it is impossible to believe something to be relative or subjective and yet hold a belief in it.

It is true that we may affect to believe, and often do in fact, in sensible discourse, that morals are non-true, or, what comes to the same thing, that they are "subjective", that they are "relative": this, upon first glance, is a logical supposition. However, in reality, if we have any moral beliefs at all, we believe them true, that is, objective, and, by definition, non-relative, non-subjective facts. We simply cannot hold a belief which we do not believe true. We can believe it to be true one day, and false another day. But we can never at the same time believe in its truth and believe it to be not true: we cannot hold a belief and not believe in it, and all this is obvious.

Yet what most people fail to understand is that, when someone says that the veracity of any given belief, such as a moral, is "subjective" (that it is outside the realm of objective reality which alone is reality and which alone can be the truth), or that he hold a belief but says that it is "relative", he is at the same time suggesting that it is not true. (Someone may say that the veracity of one of his beliefs is "subjective". But it is impossible for him to actually believe this when the belief in question is believed in.)

To repeat: it is impossible for someone to hold a belief when he regards that belief as not-true. To be relative or subjective is to be not-true. Therefore, it is impossible for someone to hold a belief when he believes the truth of that belief to be relative and/or subjective because, to repeat myself again, to be true is to be objectively true.

3. From this we see that morality, if it has any reality, is to be found in the world in which we live. It is not to be discovered by means of intuition, or by religion; it is not to be created by our subjective whims; it is not to be "relative" or in any way outside the objective world -- if it has any reality at all, if it is worth believing in.

It must be noted that we have not found morality. We merely know where to look for it if it exists (the objective world).

4. That morals cannot be immutable, or eternal, or universal

With that said, Science teaches us that there is no reason to suppose anything immutable. Science teaches us that everything changes. Science teaches us that the world, in a word, follows the laws of dialectics, that things are constantly passing into their opposites, are never at any moment the same, that the world is a congeries of contradictions. Nothing with objective reality is immutable. This must necessarily include morals, if morals are a part of objective reality, that is, if morals are real, if morals are worth believing in. The objective world, the world of truth, is constantly changing, and thus morals constantly change.

5. Now I do not know where to go with this. I have reached a dead end with morality. Concerning morals, this is all I know (I have made other claims regarding morality, but I am not entirely certain about their veracity):

(a) morals are true only if they are objectively real;
(b) supposing morals to exist (be part of the objective world which changes always), morals must be changing always.
 
"I believe in Truth, Beauty, Freedom and above all things, Love"

Is "Justice" a true statement?
Is "Do not murder" a true statement?

Once you have accepted all the objective truths you can find, you are still at a loss how to act. Therefore, we all consciously or unconsciously choose rules of action to follow.
 
Azathoth said:
"I believe in Truth, Beauty, Freedom and above all things, Love"

Is "Justice" a true statement?
Is "Do not murder" a true statement?

Once you have accepted all the objective truths you can find, you are still at a loss how to act. Therefore, we all consciously or unconsciously choose rules of action to follow.

Yes, but I have proved irrefutably that one cannot believe in anything if one does not at the same time believe it true, that one cannot believe it true if one does not believe it objectively true, though he may assert the contrary. "Justice" is a true statement in the mind of him who believes in justice. He who believes in justice who yet claims that it is "all subjective" (i.e. that it is non-true) is fooling himself. For it is impossible to believe in something and at the same time believe it false, which I have demonstrated above.

Whereas you are talking about conduct, whereas I am talking about beliefs about conduct. If someone believes that act X is morally wrong, it is impossible for him to not believe that the statement "act X is wrong" is non-true.

My doctrine refutes "subjective morality" and certain breeds of relativism.
 
I submit that the logic of this set of statements is fallacious:
(a) Only what is true is worth believing in;
therefore, if morals are worth believing in, then they must be true.
Try other words in there:
Only what is red is worth believing in; therefore, if bananas are worth believing in, then they must be red.

See? It doesn't quite work. If your logic was sound, then you should be able to substitute anything for 'true' and it would make sense.

Not to mention, what is false, and consistently false, is just as worthy of belief (in) as truth.
 
Huzington said:


All A is B



If C is B, then C is A.

You see? It works perfectly.

:nope: It only works perfectly if you are sniffing glue.

If you say all A are B it does not follow that all B are A. This is where you are wrong. Real, real wrong. Some Bs may not be As.

All things 3 years old are things less than seven years old

but not

All things less then seven years old are things 3 years old
 
Huzington said:


4. That morals cannot be immutable, or eternal, or universal

With that said, Science teaches us that there is no reason to suppose anything immutable. Science teaches us that everything changes. Science teaches us that the world, in a word, follows the laws of dialectics, that things are constantly passing into their opposites, are never at any moment the same, that the world is a congeries of contradictions. Nothing with objective reality is immutable. This must necessarily include morals, if morals are a part of objective reality, that is, if morals are real, if morals are worth believing in. The objective world, the world of truth, is constantly changing, and thus morals constantly change.

5. Now I do not know where to go with this. I have reached a dead end with morality. Concerning morals, this is all I know (I have made other claims regarding morality, but I am not entirely certain about their veracity):

(a) morals are true only if they are objectively real;
(b) supposing morals to exist (be part of the objective world which changes always), morals must be changing always.

It seemed to break down here, at least for me.

If morals are objective, then at least to me, that seems to suggest that morals do not have their source in people, but rather exist as a measurable and separate entity.

If morals were a measurable and separate entity (i.e. objective) then they may or may not be in flux. Many objective and measurable things that science has taught us about, like gravity and the inverse square law are unchanging, or at least close enough to unchanging that they can effectively be considered such. Predicting things based on what we already know, and observing those predictions to be accurate is the basis of theories, and would require that fundamental laws remain somewhat unchanging. It seems to me that you have taken an analogy about science too far.

Supposing morals were analogous to the laws of gravitation or electrical charge, then might they seem relative from our perspective?

A person, unaware of the actual nature of gravity might see an apple drop to earth, but see a comet, seemingly dropped toward the sun, miss the sun and go around for another pass one hundred years later.

Our centengenarian joe-newton could possibly come to the conclusion that gravity is relative, and applies varyingly because some objects fall toward larger bodies and others orbit them.

This would of course be wrong, gravity is consistent, measurable and objective. But joe-newton can only detect gravity and conceive of it as a relative thing.

This view would be resultant of poor observation techniques, rather than any insight into the actual nature of gravity.

Could it then be possible that morals are a natural law, similar to gravity in the respect that it does not change, but our notion of ethics is fundamentally impaired and therefore it appears as a subjective and relative institution to us because we cannot divine all of it's workings?

I submit:

1: People can only conceive of that which they observe or that which they invent. Invented (i.e. imagined) things are on their own subjective. Observed things are objective. Observations that are consistent over time can be used to predict future observations (science).

1a) Some things are imagined that cannot be observed. These things are strictly subjective, and cannot exist beyond the imagination.

1b) Some things can be observed, but are not because we haven’t gotten around to it yet. We may invent these things, but these inventions are subjective because they have not been observed.

1c) An invention may resemble objective reality by coincidence. Such an invention is still subjective, even after the similar observation is made because it is not observed.

2: Morality has not been observed (correct me if wrong), and is therefore subjective. There may be observable objects similar or identical to our subjective morality, but they have not been observed.

Ow. My head hurts now, I will go and try to observe morality with the hubble telescope if you don't mind. I think I'll start near Saturn.
 
Suddenly said:


:nope: It only works perfectly if you are sniffing glue.

If you say all A are B it does not follow that all B are A. This is where you are wrong. Real, real wrong. Some Bs may not be As.

All things 3 years old are things less than seven years old

but not

All things less then seven years old are things 3 years old

An error on my part. This is why I used "only" and added further explanations. Please do not consider parts of message in isolation. In the #5 section of my original post it is moreover evident that this is only a trivial point, and never posited certainty with regard to it.
 
Belief is an attempt to gain understanding without knowledge. To believe in what you know to be true is somewhat redundant. It is better to differentiate between what you think you know and what you really know.
 
Huzington said:
5. Now I do not know where to go with this.
That much is apparent. What (if anything) does it mean to assert that a moral is true? Why not pick 2 or 3 and show us the protocol by which their 'truth' can be ascertained? And then (assuming you get this far) tell us whether or not the protocol itself is 'true'.
 

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