Somali Radicals and music

[Darth Rotor]

Why did you think I was using a metaphor. I meant it in exactly the same sense as the act of destroying the statues.

Hmm.

Yes, as drkitten points out. If the ban goes on for long enough so that the particular traditional dance or song cannot be passed on and it has not been recorded then that dance or song can never come back.

OK, so this is an attempt at what you call cultural vandalism. The statues aren't blown up, yet. Got it. Now, put on your devil's advocate hat, and put yourself in the shoes of a different cultural assumption: that the dancing and music is some sort of cultural desecration. Should they not respond to these these vandals who are spray painting graffitti all over their culture? (Not my line, but it's as valid an argument as yours, with a differing set of assumptions).

It happens all the time as drkitten pointed out.

OK, I'll accept that as a possible outcome.

I stick by what I said, it is an act of cultural vandalism for them to suppress the traditional village dances and songs.

If successful over time, yes. Right now, they are shaking up the spray paint can, or prepping the bomb materials.

Check back in a few years and see if this attempt is a success. In the meantime, if there are ways to prevent this attempt at change ... then the vandals need not sack Rome this time around.

DR

 

[drkitten]

OK, so this is an attempt at what you call cultural vandalism. The statues aren't blown up, yet. Got it. Now, put on your devil's advocate hat, and put yourself in the shoes of a different cultural assumption: that the dancing and music is some sort of cultural desecration. Should they not respond to these these vandals who are spray painting graffitti all over their culture? (Not my line, but it's as valid an argument as yours, with a differing set of assumptions).

It's a lot harder to distinguish cultural "desecration" from mere cultural "change" than it is cultural "vandalism"; destruction is easier to demonstrate objectively in the second instance. And, of course, it's not clear that that this "dancing and music" are even instituting a change in Islamic Somali culture; my understanding (which may be wrong) is that this dancing and music are themselves cultural artifacts that may well predate the spread of Islam. It's not like they're suddenly objecting to Britney Spears (which I could understand), but to traditional activities that archeologists and anthropologists could probably trace back for thousands of years.

I don't think the line you outline above is what the Islamic Somalis are thinking. They're thinking more that they are "improving" traditional culture by imposing Islamic standards on it. In other words, they are deliberately attempting to change traditional culture, not prevent its "desecration," and it's quite consistent for modern Western liberals (who are generally supportive of traditional culture against intrusions of any sort) to decry the Islamic ban on music in the same way they'd object to a book burning by fundamentalist Christians.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It's a lot harder to distinguish cultural "desecration" from mere cultural "change" than it is cultural "vandalism"; destruction is easier to demonstrate objectively in the second instance. And, of course, it's not clear that that this "dancing and music" are even instituting a change in Islamic Somali culture; my understanding (which may be wrong) is that this dancing and music are themselves cultural artifacts that may well predate the spread of Islam.

Agreed, which is part of why I moderated my response after you and Robin made your points.

It's not like they're suddenly objecting to Britney Spears (which I could understand), but to traditional activities that archeologists and anthropologists could probably trace back for thousands of years.

Yes, indeed, though why any holds inherent value is a subjective assessment.

I don't think the line you outline above is what the Islamic Somalis are thinking. They're thinking more that they are "improving" traditional culture by imposing Islamic standards on it.

Fair enough. Progress ... sorta like that proposed by Western Liberals for the past three centuries.

In other words, they are deliberately attempting to change traditional culture, not prevent its "desecration," and it's quite consistent for modern Western liberals (who are generally supportive of traditional culture against intrusions of any sort) --

Which is why Western liberals support animal sacrifice, femal genital mutilation, and burning witches at the stake

-- to decry the Islamic ban on music in the same way they'd object to a book burning by fundamentalist Christians.

Sure. That's a reasonable parallel.

The only nitpick I retain, for value to include the humorous, is that the statues are blowed up, sir, while the dancers can still dance, and the cultural thing isn't lost ... yet. Whether the spray can is removed from the hands of the vandals remains to be seen.

DR

 

[TimCallahan]

History repeats itself. In Russia, ca. 1500, musical instruments were briefly banned.

There are a number of possible responses to this vie lot. One would be to buzz their territories with remote operate drones that would blare out Islamic music. Let these jerks shoot down planes playing music that glorifies Muhammad.

Another solution is to give military aid - short of sending our own troops in - to the Christian and pagan peoples of Darfur, so they can drive the Muslims out of their region. Then they could secede, and we could recognize the new country, while the Muslim north sinks into an abyss of hatred, ignorance and poverty.

Sorry. This is an error: I was conflating Somalia with Sudan.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sorry. This is an error: I was conflating Somalia with Sudan.

Yes, but I'd love to see that last bit happen, as would many in Southern Sudan.

 

[TimCallahan]

Yes, but I'd love to see that last bit happen, as would many in Southern Sudan.

Agreed!

 

[Robin]

Hmm.

OK, so this is an attempt at what you call cultural vandalism. The statues aren't blown up, yet. Got it. Now, put on your devil's advocate hat, and put yourself in the shoes of a different cultural assumption: that the dancing and music is some sort of cultural desecration. Should they not respond to these these vandals who are spray painting graffitti all over their culture? (Not my line, but it's as valid an argument as yours, with a differing set of assumptions).

No, it is not the same. The continuance of singing and dancing will not lead to Islamic traditions becoming irrevocably lost.

If successful over time, yes. Right now, they are shaking up the spray paint can, or prepping the bomb materials.

Check back in a few years and see if this attempt is a success. In the meantime, if there are ways to prevent this attempt at change ... then the vandals need not sack Rome this time around.

That is all very well, as long as you don't take the attitude that after they sack Rome we could fix the situation by unsacking Rome.

 

[Darth Rotor]

That is all very well, as long as you don't take the attitude that after they sack Rome we could fix the situation by unsacking Rome.

Certainly not, one would perhaps rebuild (unlike Carthage), a different process than "unsacking" and one that may lead to a different Rome than was sacked.

DR

 

[Erigena]

Could this kind of lunacy come to the United States?

No. The movie Footlose already addressed this issue.

 

[king catfish]

I see very little hope at all for that country.

I was there in 1993-1994, and believe me, it was obvious then that there is no hope at all for this country.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No. The movie Footlose already addressed this issue.

 

[rwguinn]

<snip>

The only nitpick I retain, for value to include the humorous, is that the statues are blowed up, sir, while the dancers can still dance, and the cultural thing isn't lost ... yet. Whether the spray can is removed from the hands of the vandals remains to be seen.

DR

They can always use the Irish method...



At least, the Legend of the Irish Folk Dance tradition--where they were prohibited from dancing, and developed the "below the waist" stuff so that the British couldn't tell through the open top of the door that they were dancing...