Soldier Beaten Down, Discharged

[evildave]

Ahh, yes.

The government is breaking into homes to conduct 'secret' searches. The government kidnaps and tortures people. It's all OK, it's the government and it hasn't happened to YOU yet, so there are no changes in YOUR civil rights at all!

I don't have to have my home raided, and my body ravaged *indefinitely* by a bunch of masked ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ with 'FBI' on their jackets to dread the idea of it happening.

I'm sure you'll be proud one day when it's your own children being strangled and forced to sleep wet and naked on a bare concrete floor of a room a little smaller than they are.

It will be OUR government doing it, so it must be OK, eh?

After all, someday your little boy or girl could meet the wrong person, and be video taped having a conversation, and the feds could be busting up his/her home a few hours later, convinced he/she knows about something that he/she doesn't, and merrily electrocuting and beating your baby, because they don't believe your child when he/she says he/she talked about "the weather". And then carry on doing it *indefinitely*.

You'll shed a proud tear about what a good job the government is doing for you with your children. Hurrah!

The only way I can see that someone would support torture, and not see a problem with it, is because they would treat their very own children this way.

 

[a_unique_person]

Now, if Dubya had had a blow job in the whitehouse, we would never hear the end of it. This story, however, will just wither and die.

 

[evildave]

Yeah, well who cares about "human rights", so long as it's "other people" that they're being denied to?

 

[Chaos]

"When they came for the communists, I said nothing, since I was no communist.
When they came for the union members, I said nothing, since I was not a union member.
When they came for the jews, I said nothing, since I was not a jew.
When they came for me, nobody said anything, since there was no-one left to speak up."

- Martin Niemöller

 

[hammegk]

Yeah, well who cares about "human rights", so long as it's "other people" that they're being denied to?

Once everyone has the electrodes implanted, human nature is re-programmed, and no one escapes that nirvana and regains human desires, human rights might mean something.

As yet, human rights is what *your* socioeconomic system and actual power structure members are willing to allow you to take for yourself.


The FBI was more apt to give an enemy of the state a surreptitious examination 50 years ago than today. And torture came in various packages in most police stations if you were deemed "undesirable".

 

[evildave]

Ahh yes, harken back to the 'wisdom' of the 'good old days' of McCarthyism and "House Un-American Activities Committee". When "duck and cover" was taught to school children, and 'Jim Crow' laws were vigorously enforced. "50 years ago." What a desirable model to strive for, for our future. It might also be pointed out that only 30 years ago they were sterilizing Native American women against their will in Oklahoma. Maybe you'd like that back, too?

People certainly seem to conveniently 'forget' the fact that Communists and even Saddam Hussein were (rightly) portrayed as evil for their human rights abuses, especially for their peculiar practices of imprisoning people indefinitely, torturing them and causing them to 'disappear'. These same people seem to believe it's all A-OK as long as *OUR* government takes up the human-abuse in their place, because we're the "good guys".

Hurray for our team!

We've given the terrorists more than they could have ever dreamed of.

Our government has taken the place of the Communists and Sadam Hussein as the de-facto 'evil empire'. It will take decades to correct this damage even if it all stopped *right now*.

We've demonstrated ON CAMERA that we're every bit as bad as Saddam Hussein or the Communists. Of course, neither of those regimes were STUPID enough to let people take pictures of their abuses and share them with their friends. They apparently weren't as PROUD OF IT as some Americans are. Isn't that sickening? Well, I mean to those of you who aren't proud of torture, anyway.

 

[Rob Lister]

We've demonstrated ON CAMERA that we're every bit as bad as Saddam Hussein or the Communists. Of course, neither of those regimes were STUPID enough to let people take pictures of their abuses and share them with their friends. They apparently weren't as PROUD OF IT as some Americans are. Isn't that sickening? Well, I mean to those of you who aren't proud of torture, anyway.

So now you're just confusing me. Is it your opinion that all Iraqi people should be judged by the acts of Saddam and his croonies?

If so, say so and let the debate center on that.

If not, then why do you equate the totality of "we" with what certain Americans did (and were/are being prosecuted by 'we'). Why do you apply lesser standards to them?

Edit: grammar/clarification.

 

[evildave]

The former Iraqi regime was supposed to be held accountable for its possession of 'WMD', imprisonment, torture and killing of people. We killed 15,000 Iraqi people (estimate, so far) to remove that regime.

Do you believe the present U.S. regime should NOT be held accountable for its possession of 'WMD', imprisonment, torture and killing of people?

You seem to be saying that the present U.S. regime should be held to lower standards than ruthless dictators and terrorists.

In a way, the American people are more responsibile for these tortures and disappearances. After all, Iraq had an 'out-of-control tyrant' in charge that 'nobody' wanted... and we have representatives elected by majority votes making similarly abominable decisions.

This topic is about torture, and how it is never 'appropriate'. It is never 'appropriate' to take someone into custody and beat them. It is never 'appropriate' to assume people's guilt and abuse them hoping they *might* 'know something'. It is never 'appropriate'

First, simply because it's against every founding principle of the United States of America to imprison, torture and kill people for its government's convenience. Just because many of these 'due process' principles have been undercut, ignored or even abandoned (i.e. property seizures for the 'war on drugs') in the past is no reason to accept that it's right to ignore civilized principles, let alone abandon them wholesale.

Second, because any intelligence you gain will be highly suspect. Torture victims will claim to 'know' things, and invent stories just to stop being tortured. Even without physically violent coercion, people will confess to crimes that they didn't commit. If they do know something, and "might" lie, they will lie as convincingly under torture as they would in a legal interrogation, but they will have a lot more reason to lie.

 

[hammegk]

Ahh yes, harken back to the 'wisdom' of the 'good old days' of McCarthyism and "House Un-American Activities Committee". When "duck and cover" was taught to school children, and 'Jim Crow' laws were vigorously enforced. "50 years ago." What a desirable model to strive for, for our future. It might also be pointed out that only 30 years ago they were sterilizing Native American women against their will in Oklahoma. Maybe you'd like that back, too?

Now if I had said I "wanted those days back"; but I didn't.

People certainly seem to conveniently 'forget' the fact that Communists and even Saddam Hussein were (rightly) portrayed as evil for their human rights abuses, especially for their peculiar practices of imprisoning people indefinitely, torturing them and causing them to 'disappear'. These same people seem to believe it's all A-OK as long as *OUR* government takes up the human-abuse in their place, because we're the "good guys".

Hurray for our team!

Interesting that you equate the acts we have been alerted to by the ever watchful media as equivalencing the USA govt with Saddam, or Stalin. I disagree.

I doubt we have facts in evidence on any of the current situations.

We've given the terrorists more than they could have ever dreamed of.

They already have more than they need so far as I see.

We've demonstrated ON CAMERA that we're every bit as bad as Saddam Hussein or the Communists. Of course, neither of those regimes were STUPID enough to let people take pictures of their abuses and share them with their friends.

I agree with the seeming stupidity of our people involved.

I wonder how much luck you would have getting pictures out of one of our maximum security prisons, and if you did, I doubt you'd care much for the abuses occurring in them.

They apparently weren't as PROUD OF IT as some Americans are. Isn't that sickening? Well, I mean to those of you who aren't proud of torture, anyway.

Your definition of torture is not shared by all of us.

I'm proud some US soldiers do what must be done, even though that does not negate the unlawfulness of and being punished for their actions. Remember the officer who obtained info from a prisoner that resulted in safer conditions fro his troops after firing his pistol near the prisoner's head? He was discharged with prejudice IIRC.

 

[evildave]

I wonder how much luck you would have getting pictures out of one of our maximum security prisons, and if you did, I doubt you'd care much for the abuses occurring in them.

Not so hard. Here's a very recent example of a whole video shot at a prison.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/18/rap.video.jail.ap/index.html

It's an interesting double-standard, anyway. If something a little off-color is done to an American citizen, it's a lot more "terrible" than foreign nationals without telephones. It just tells me that the government is barely held in check, and could start up a pogrom at any moment with the right excuse.

Your definition of torture is not shared by all of us.

I'm proud some US soldiers do what must be done, even though that does not negate the unlawfulness of and being punished for their actions. Remember the officer who obtained info from a prisoner that resulted in safer conditions fro his troops after firing his pistol near the prisoner's head? He was discharged with prejudice IIRC.

I see, so beating people to the brink of death, disabling some, and killing some others, while hiding them from the International Red Cross is "NOT TORTURE" by your definition?

Kicking puppies must be "love" in your bizarro world dictionary.

Your definition of 'necessary' is equally suspect.

Your hypothetical officer who discharged the weapon was rightly removed from service (you'll have to cite names, or a location/time).

The end does not justify the means. How about an officer who doesn't like his answers, and executes the guy as an example, and tells the villagers he'll keep shooting until someone 'talks', and this causes a 'safer environment'? Is that justifiable, too? It's only a baby step away, once you're discharging firearms next to heads, to discharging firearms AT heads. A little stress and adrenaline. Want to excuse it? What happens when he runs out of heads to pop and still nobody knows what he wants? Start in on the witnesses? Burn the whole village down? He could claim it was 'necessary'. It's those 'baby steps' that lead you to historic attrocities. Zero tolerance.


Hey! Considering a growing U.S. prison population that has already exceeded two million, we probably have our initial pogrom candidates. Maybe someone can make a case for how it's 'necessary' to 'get rid of' our prisoners? We have the biggest prison population by any measurement in the world, bar none.

 

[hammegk]

Not so hard. Here's a very recent example of a whole video shot at a prison.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/18/rap.video.jail.ap/index.html

Umm, are you sure that was one of our maximum security facilities?

It's an interesting double-standard, anyway.

I don't understand that comment.

If something a little off-color is done to an American citizen, it's a lot more "terrible" than foreign nationals without telephones.

I don't agree the US constitution protection extends to 5.7 billion non-citizens.

It just tells me that the government is barely held in check, and could start up a pogrom at any moment with the right excuse.

Yeah, that pretty well states the case for every govt, ever. Better stay on your toes, huh? I understand a bunch of folks in Idaho in particular have the same worry, and are actually planning and training for the event.

I see, so beating people to the brink of death, disabling some, and killing some others, while hiding them from the International Red Cross is "NOT TORTURE" by your definition?

Sounds bad. I would like to know some of the actual circumstances surrounding the incidents. What do you suppose "beating to the brink of death" actually means?

Kicking puppies must be "love" in your bizarro world dictionary.

I'm all for kindness to dumb animals until they bite me for senseless imo reasons.

Your definition of 'necessary' is equally suspect.

Most things are "suspect" if you hadn't noticed; even the meaning of simple words like, say, "is".

Your hypothetical officer who discharged the weapon was rightly removed from service (you'll have to cite names, or a location/time).

Nah, no interest in doing so. The incident (basically as I stated it) was news a few months back.

The end does not justify the means.

Even for you, I suspect we could hypothesize reasons that would justify torture. Hmm, shall we torture the wife & kiddies too?

How about an officer who doesn't like his answers, and executes the guy as an example, and tells the villagers he'll keep shooting until someone 'talks', and this causes a 'safer environment'? Is that justifiable, too? It's only a baby step away, once you're discharging firearms next to heads, to discharging firearms AT heads. A little stress and adrenaline. Want to excuse it? What happens when he runs out of heads to pop and still nobody knows what he wants? Start in on the witnesses? Burn the whole village down? He could claim it was 'necessary'. It's those 'baby steps' that lead you to historic attrocities. Zero tolerance.

You still having flashbacks from your tour? Or have I missed the reportage of these recent happenings in Iraq, or Afghanistan, courtesy of US troops (or even Coalition troops)?

Hey! Considering a growing U.S. prison population that has already exceeded two million, we probably have our initial pogrom candidates. Maybe someone can make a case for how it's 'necessary' to 'get rid of' our prisoners? We have the biggest prison population by any measurement in the world, bar none.

Why kill them; these are the USA slave labor camps. Who made your license plates?

On the prison population, I'm all for legalizing everything. Kids without decent parents to help them grow up are not my concern, thanks.

 

[evildave]

I don't agree the US constitution protection extends to 5.7 billion non-citizens.

Ahh, well I suppose the millions who come into the country for one reason or another to do business or work should be even more fearful, then since you believe civil rights only belong to U.S. citizens, contrary to many treaties.

You hear that? hammegk sincerely believes you shouldn't have any rights, and that U.S. soldiers, contractors, or agents should be allowed to kidnap and torture you!

Yeah, that pretty well states the case for every govt, ever. Better stay on your toes, huh? I understand a bunch of folks in Idaho in particular have the same worry, and are actually planning and training for the event.

Says the fan of torture...

Sounds bad. I would like to know some of the actual circumstances surrounding the incidents. What do you suppose "beating to the brink of death" actually means?

You haven't been following the news, or reading any of the links, so far? Oh well, I suppose to you brutality is A-OK.

I'm all for kindness to dumb animals until they bite me for senseless imo reasons.

YIKES! You WOULD kick a puppy?

Even for you, I suspect we could hypothesize reasons that would justify torture. Hmm, shall we torture the wife & kiddies too?

Nope. Not a chance.

You still having flashbacks from your tour? Or have I missed the reportage of these recent happenings in Iraq, or Afghanistan, courtesy of US troops (or even Coalition troops)?

Just expanding on your hypothetical scenario where the officer fired a gun *near* a head. Obviously your reading comprehension just isn't up to par.

 

[hammegk]

Dood, your fantasy world is expanding. Chill out, we wouldn't want you to blow a gasket.

Hug a tree, save a whale, read Klinton's latest lies, something ....

 

[Bottle or the Gun]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3812713.stm

This one pisses me off on many levels.

Primarily, the 'outrage' is over this soldier being 'mistakenly' beaten.

WTF???

It's outrageous that any beatings are taking place!!!

Now they'll just beat, torture, etc. *anybody* who ends up in the wrong room. Secret prisons. Overseas prisons. Indefinite imprisonment without charge. Torture. Killing people and calling it 'natural causes'.

It makes criminal investigation a lot easier, too. Just grab any random person off the street, deny them sleep, food, clothing, etc. and torture them indefinitely until they 'confess', and you have a crime solved! How convenient is that?

It's like McCarthy and Kafka had an insane love child and it's ruling the world. Seems like the US has stared into the abyss a little too long and became the monster they were fighting.

I'm not 'sick of being an American', but I am getting tired of our actions. The dissembling, disguising motives, sucking up to a regime that supports what we are fighting, the corrupt parasites in power and a population consisting mainly of retarded sheep.

Maybe they'd get the idea most people are sick of their BS if we'd throw the bastards out of work through regular recall elections. California got rid of that soft-money-slut Governor early, and they'll do it again to whoever becomes Gov if Arnold loses next go around.

I hope soon we will have a Presidential candidate that we can vote FOR instead of AGAINST.

It would take a lot to make me ashamed of being American. Why? Because I've lived in and visted other countries. Even the 'good' ones have systems that you really, really do not want to be caught up in.

 

[evildave]

Dood, your fantasy world is expanding. Chill out, we wouldn't want you to blow a gasket.

Hug a tree, save a whale, read Klinton's latest lies, something ....

Says the guy who admits he would kick a puppy if it nipped at him.

 

[Elind]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3812713.stm

This one pisses me off on many levels.

Primarily, the 'outrage' is over this soldier being 'mistakenly' beaten.

WTF???

It's outrageous that any beatings are taking place!!!

So much for that 'presumed innocent' status we once took for granted when our government obeyed what's left of its constitution.

Now they'll just beat, torture, etc. *anybody* who ends up in the wrong room. Secret prisons. Overseas prisons. Indefinite imprisonment without charge. Torture. Killing people and calling it 'natural causes'.

It makes criminal investigation a lot easier, too. Just grab any random person off the street, deny them sleep, food, clothing, etc. and torture them indefinitely until they 'confess', and you have a crime solved! How convenient is that?

It makes me absolutely sick to be an American these days.

Doesn't take much to make you sick about your country it seems. It would seem more that you look for any examples of imperfection to express your contempt, rather than offering constructive criticism. Tell us some more about about what it is that ticks you off, and makes you sick in the process, and perhaps we can offer a better diagnosis about your sorry condition.

 

[evildave]

Constructive criticism #1:
Don't beat and torture people.

Constructive criticism #2:
When your soldiers beat someone who is in their custody badly enough to have seizures, there is a problem.

Constructive criticism #3:
When one of your own soldiers is beaten so badly by others of your own soldiers under the mistaken assumption that he is a defenseless prisoner who has already been soaked down with pepper spray, that he has to be discharged for being disabled, SEND HIS DISABILITY CHECKS PROMPTLY.

Constructive criticism #4:
When savage beating are videotaped (and this one was), don't make the videotape 'disappear' and try to pretend nothing happened.

Constructive criticism #5:
No matter what someone did, when there are pictures of some guy naked with a sack over his head and a dog barking at his genitals, or a pile of them being sexually humiliated under threat of more mistreatment, it's clear to the whole world who the victims really are.

Constructive criticism #6:
When you establish a strong pattern of abuse and torture and human rights violations, trying to destroy or conceal evidence, and hiding prisoners from the Red Cross, don't be surprised when people tend to assume the worst: They're probably right.


And here's to hammegk, American, and Elind for being the perfect models of the UGLY AMERICAN for the world to see.

 

[hammegk]

And here's to hammegk, .....for being the perfect model of the UGLY AMERICAN for the world to see.

Aww, thanks, but I don't think I'm perfect.


Say a halleluja for one of your appeasing pc'lib idiots -- Jimmy Carter -- for allowing Iran to return to the middle ages when the Shah nearly had the country civilized. Connect the dots and here we are today.

When will the Panama Canal giveaway flare into an international crises on our doorstep.


Go lick a toad; wouldn't want you to establish contact with life as it is instead of as you have it in your dreamland.

 

[Chaos]

Just what kind of pills are you taking, hammegk? They seem to be fun.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Anyway, I might move to another country, but the locals would probably think I was like you, and who wants that sort of person as a neighbor?

Not me.