So you're an atheist. Ok, what next?

[plumjam]

Define "intuition"?

you intuitively know what intuition is

Yes, of course, but where does god fall in to that? Why do we need god to tell us that it's wrong?

God set up the universe with meaning and directionality. Morality is directly derived from this meaning and directionality. That which is at odds with the meaning and directionality is immoral, that which is harmonious with the meaning and directionality is moral.
That is why Social Darwinism was/is immoral, because it goes counter to the objective meaning and directionality of reality.

Compassion is a human feeling. Hatred and destruction are also human feelings. So did god give us both?

God gave you free will to either foster compassion or foster hatred. It's up to you.
God gave you iron ore, which can be made into a scalpel. The scalpel can be used to murder someone or save a life.

 

[plumjam]

And where do you find evidence for this?

if you want you can study the teachings of the great religions, the lives of the saints, religious experience, meditation, spiritual practice etc..
but then I expect your world view disallows you from counting this as valid evidence.. in which case you're at a dead end.

I'm touched that you know so much about me. Do go on; how do I live my life? What belief is contradicted by the way I do so?

well I think you said that our lives are pretty much meaningless.. but then you still find meaning in your interpersonal relationships. I assume you are a decent compassionate loving person. In an ultimately meaningless reality finding meaning within little areas of that reality is illogical.

 

[Frost]

Jeez, is this the best he can do at the end of the day?

Goddidit, Goddidit, Goddidit.

 

[Pardalis]

you don't need to be a follower of any particular religion to have access to your own conscience and thus attempt to discern moral objectivity.

As Zooterkin said, atheists and agnostics also have a conscience.

the problem comes when your world view disallows the reality of moral objectivity... this is a world view that is almost always accompanied by atheism in my experience atheists generally do, in practice, discern moral objectivity via their consciences, but their belief system is at odds with this, which presents a contradiction.

The only difference is that we are aware that humans are flawed and subjective. We are aware that saying there is one "Truth" is dangerous and ill advised.

People with such dogmas are responsible for alot of abhorrent things too. That's because we are all human.

if morality has simply evolved and refers to nothing external to the human individual or society we are free to make up whatever crazy morality we like.

Hey, read about history. Religion has done just that.

 

[plumjam]

Explain to me how not believing in god(s) means I no longer have access to my conscience.

I haven't said that.

Let's see, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Judaism are all saying the same thing? Exactly what tiny kernel of 'truth' do they have in common?

it could be expressed variously, but the attenuation of the ego/mind resulting eventually in expansion of consciousness to infinity.
(God consciousness, Self-realisation, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Moksha, Fana, Theosis, Nirvana ... a rose by any name smells as sweet.)

 

[plumjam]

Jeez, is this the best he can do at the end of the day?

Goddidit, Goddidit, Goddidit.

If God indeed did it I'd be ill advised to say anything else.

 

[Pardalis]

you intuitively know what intuition is

Gibberish.

God set up the universe with meaning and directionality.

You don't know that.

Morality is directly derived from this meaning and directionality.

You don't know that.

God gave you free will to either foster compassion or foster hatred. It's up to you.

Then if I choose to not believe in him then that's OK then?

God gave you iron ore,

No, we humans found out about iron by ourselves.

which can be made into a scalpel. The scalpel can be used to murder someone or save a life.

Sure.

 

[anticonspiracy911]

you're missing the point here.. I'm not saying that.
I'm saying presumably you believe they deserve equal treatment, (as do I), yet this belief of yours can not be backed up by any 'external' empirical measurements or evidence.

the only 'evidence' will come from you internally examining your conscience about what is right and wrong.

And when did I say that morality was objective? Morality is subjective. So I really don't see your point here.

 

[plumjam]

Gibberish.

if you don't intuitively know what your own intuition is then I can't help you on that one

Then if I choose to not believe in him then that's OK then?

entirely up to you. God's in no hurry.

No, we humans found out about iron by ourselves.

lol
did we create iron ore?

 

[plumjam]

And when did I say that morality was objective? Morality is subjective. So I really don't see your point here.

morality is subjective, huh? so if I make up my own subjective morality which includes needing to murder your whole family for some reason, that would ultimately be no worse than your 'subjective' morality which says that members of my family should be treated fairly, and allowed to live out their lives?

 

[Pardalis]

if you don't intuitively know what your own intuition is then I can't help you on that one

So you can't define intuition.

Check.

entirely up to you. God's in no hurry.

Then it's OK to be an atheist/agnostic.

Check.

did we create iron ore?

I didn't say that. I said we found out about how to use it ourselves, with no help from any god. It was there and we used it.

You don't know that it was created by god in the first place.

 

[plumjam]

So you can't define intuition.

if you are so keen for a definition find it in an online dictionary.
I can see no relevance in the line you're taking.

Then it's OK to be an atheist/agnostic.

It's better that you have the free choice to decide what you want to believe, than it all be planted in you, like some robot.
The latter would rob all positions of meaning.

 

[Pardalis]

if you are so keen for a definition find it in an online dictionary.
I can see no relevance in the line you're taking.

Or is it maybe that your refusal to propose a definition has to do with the fact that the very definition of the word has nothing to do with objectivity?

It's better that you have the free choice to decide what you want to believe, than it all be planted in you, like some robot.
The latter would rob all positions of meaning.

And the whole has no meaning at all.

 

[Roadtoad]

Aw.. Roadtoad, you spoilt the lovely restaurant ambience by descending into ad hominem.

Your evasion is duly noted.

 

[Lothian]

God set up the universe with meaning and directionality. Morality is directly derived from this meaning and directionality. That which is at odds with the meaning and directionality is immoral, that which is harmonious with the meaning and directionality is moral.

Please can you tell me, following Gods meaning and directionality, the moral position that should be taken in respect of abortion, homosexuality, alcohol, masturbation, donations of blood, eating shellfish, suicide bombing, circumcision, the wearing of clothes made from two different materials, slavery & murder.

I want to compare that to the moral position without God.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Esperdome]

Roadtoad, I'm so envious of you. Hokulele is something else, isn't she? Too bad she's happily married.

 

[Roadtoad]

Word up, Esper. If her husband isn't aware of how wonderful she is, he doesn't deserve her.

 

[Pardalis]

Thou shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

 

[Tricky]

I just got back from the store. As it happens, I have a killer cold and I needed to pick up some medications. On my way our of the parking lot, I saw a man pushing his car. I didn't think twice about whether or not I felt "good enough" to help him. No matter how bad I felt, he was feeling worse. I stopped my car and hopped out. I pushed and he started the car (it was a straight shift). He got out and thanked me. If I'm any judge of appearances and accents, he was from some some Middle Eastern or Persian nation. As far as I know, he didn't know much English beyond "yes" and "thank you", but a smile is universal.

As I drove started to get into my car, I noticed the most gorgeous sunset over the Kroger parking lot. I stopped and snapped the picture below. Does it matter whether or not you ascribe its beauty to some god?

Such is an hour in the life of an immoral, materialistic atheist.

 

[KingMerv00]

This thread grew too quickly to read the whole thing but I want to say that Plumjam has absolutely to imagination.

He (she?) cant fathom or even accept that some people are actually happier as atheists. If he can't understand how I feel, fine. But he refuses to even acknowledge we think the way we do.