So what form does the resistance take?

[I Am The Scum]

I like how the idea of too far left is the government being a little bit too helpful and the too far right Slip n' Slide we're currently on ends with concentration camps and the military targeting civilians.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Thanks for your list! I'm not familiar enough with Marx to say which of the above ideas are rooted in his writings and which aren't; not every progressive idea can be traced back to Marx's core idea of class struggle and his revolutionary solution.

It also shows me you're not a follower of hard-right ideology. You're more nuanced than that, which causes no small amount of confusion among many posters here.

Comprehensive response split to a new thread here:

Thread 'Relationship of Marxism to Progressive Policies and the Virtues or Risks Thereof'

Oct 3, 2025

Avoiding a derail, originally from here:

Thanks for your list! I'm not familiar enough with Marx to say which of the above ideas are rooted in his writings and which aren't; not every progressive idea can be traced back to Marx's core idea of class struggle and his revolutionary solution.

Marx' approach was strictly based on class, even though such classes were poorly defined. That said, the foundation of Marx's approach was premised on an...

• Emily's Cat
• Replies: 198
• Forum: Social Issues (Current Events now moved)

• 

 

[Emily's Cat]

In rare cases, shingles can be lethal. It can also lead to loss of vision, brain swelling and meningitis. Your lack of empathy for your fellow humans is astounding.

Why do you think it's a lack of empathy to encourage people to get the vaccine, but not expect everyone else to foot the entire bill for it?

I encourage people to take a multivitamin - do you think it reasonable to expect that the public should have to pay for everyone to get multivitamins instead of having to buy them on their own?

 

[Emily's Cat]

And yet society does pay for the lack of responsibility of a few. Whether we are willing to pay the cost or not.

The subject of infectious disease is one where the doctrine of personal responsibility falls down and tries to eat its own foot. A completely faithful wife might be infected with HIV by a philandering husband. You might be infected with COVID by an asymptomatic carrier who got it from a family member who got it from a coworker who knowingly went into work sick since they didn't think it was a big deal.

You can and will suffer the negative consequences of irresponsible behavior by people whose names you will never know. Negative consequences that can only be mitigated by collective action.

Okay, take your example of a spouse being unknowingly infected by a cheater. That could happen to almost anyone! Do you actually know anything about PrEP? It's not a one-time vaccination, it's not even a once-a-year vaccination. It's a profilaxis - it has to be taken daily in order to work, and if you stop taking it, it stops working. It also runs about $80 per dose. That works out to around $30K per year.

A long-acting version was very recently approved that last several months, perhaps up to half a year... at the low, low cost of around $15K per injection.

The daily version is currently required to be covered by all insurance companies as a preventive drug - the customer pays $0 for it. It's recommended for anyone who is at 'high risk' of exposure - but they have to be HIV negative. PrEP doesn't do anything if you've already got it.

So like I said - I'm happy it exists, but I don't think it should be paid for by everyone else when avoidance of HIV can be pretty easily accomplished by the use of a condom and not doing needle drugs in the overwhelming majority of cases.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Shingles is also how the herpes zoster virus seeks to spread to new hosts, that's how I got chicken pox---Grandma had shingles. Went through the whole school. Do you want to help the virus find new hosts, who might have disastrous and disabling results, with even greater 'costs' to society and doesn't need to happen?

 

[arthwollipot]

Do you want to help the virus find new hosts, who might have disastrous and disabling results, with even greater 'costs' to society and doesn't need to happen?

You're sounding like an AI here.

 

[Susheel]

You're sounding like an AI here.

Or ye olde MS Paperclip. It took me a minute to figure out what you were saying...then I caught it too.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I'm quite openly opposed to the vast majority of progressive positions. Not being progressive doesn't make me not classically liberal. It just makes me pragmatic and able to consider the likely consequences of those policies. Seriously, being able to use extrapolative thinking to see that legalizing the use of hard drugs and providing wet shelters for addicts is likely to deteriorate the quality of life for everyone else in that community, and that it does not reduce the impact of addiction and improve long-term health and well being for addicts isn't exactly an illiberal observation.

Calling yourself a classical liberal is simply admittiny you follow a very right wing ideology.

 

[dann]

Shingles is also how the herpes zoster virus seeks to spread to new hosts, that's how I got chicken pox---Grandma had shingles. Went through the whole school. Do you want to help the virus find new hosts, who might have disastrous and disabling results, with even greater 'costs' to society and doesn't need to happen?

Ninjaed by Silly Green Monkey!

And when children are no longer vaccinated with the MMRV vaccine (the V is what's important in this context!), the story of you, your grandma and the whole school is bound to repeat itself even though the tools to prevent it exist nowadays.
"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."

 

[dann]

I like how the idea of too far left is the government being a little bit too helpful and the too far right Slip n' Slide we're currently on ends with concentration camps and the military targeting civilians.

It's not "the government being a little bit too helpful." It's the government being a little too helpful for the wrong class of people.
The deserving oligarchs will continue get all the help they pay the dictator for.

 

[mumblethrax]

Identifying universal basic income as a Marxist idea is tremendously weird. It predates Marx and Engels by a long shot, and neither of them even mentions it. I also wouldn't say it's at the forefront of progressive policy goals.

Probably the best-known boosters of UBI in the 20th century were Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek. It is, fundamentally, a classically liberal idea for dealing with poverty.

The problem is that the modern right (in America, anyway) just doesn't remotely give a ◊◊◊◊ about dealing with poverty, except perhaps by digging graves.

 

[Planigale]

Universal basic income, maximization of leisure time as an objective, destruction of meritocracy, teaching to the lowest common denominator and removing programs for gifted children, presumed oppression as a basis for monetary reward in the form of reparations or unearned incomes, expansion of the social safety net to encompass discomfort rather than strict need, socially funded medical services that cover more than critical care and necessary treatment, an ever-expanding list of required "preventive" screenings and treatments as free services, living wages for part-time jobs that should be predominantly filled by high-school kids, diversity of external characteristics as a business objective while seeking strict conformity of thought and viewpoint... Off the top of my head.

As an example of the ever expanding preventive requirements... the shingles vaccine shouldn't be *free*. Available, yes, absolutely. But shingles is not contagiousand is also not lethal. It's painful and super duper sucks, but it's not a public health risk nor life threatening. I'm happy that the vaccines are available, and I've got an appointment for mine coming up... but it shouldn't be mandated to be provided free of cost to the consumer. Similarly, I don't think PReP should be mandated to be covered for free. It's great that it exists, and I'm all for it being available. But seriously, wear a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ condom and don't do needle drugs and the risk of contracting AIDS is virtually. Society as a whole shouldn't be obligated to pay the cost for the lack of responsibility of a few.

I think it is important to at least get facts right before trying to draw conclusions.
1) Shingles is highly contagious. The virus (varicella zoster - the cause of chicken pox) sheds from the skin rash.
2) Varicella zoster infection can be lethal. It can cause a fatal encephalitis, which if not fatal can cause permanent brain damage. Pregnant women are highly susceptible to zoster, when it can cause a severe occasionally fatal pneumonia, and serious abnormalities in the foetus.

Varicella used to be very common in the United States and contributed significantly to the burden of childhood disease. In the early 1990s each year:

• More than 4 million people got varicella
• 10,500 to 13,500 were hospitalized
• 100 to 150 died

More than 90% of cases, 70% of hospitalizations, and about half of the deaths occurred in children.

Clinical Overview of Chickenpox (Varicella)

Learn about chickenpox, prevention in healthcare settings, evidence of immunity, and the vaccine.

www.cdc.gov

Congenital varicella syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Varicella Zoster Virus Encephalitis | Encephalitis International

While VZV infections are common, encephalitis occurs more rarely, with an estimated incidence of 1–2 cases per 10,000 varicella cases.

www.encephalitis.info

If you are an insurance company then you can expect your clients to take reasonable precautions to prevent a claim being made, or the insurance may be invalid. The insurance company may well decide preventative health checks and vaccinations are cheaper than paying the costs of severe illness and disability.

 

[Thermal]

'Resistance' talking on a new meaning ITT.

 

[Planigale]

Universal basic income, maximization of leisure time as an objective, destruction of meritocracy, teaching to the lowest common denominator and removing programs for gifted children, presumed oppression as a basis for monetary reward in the form of reparations or unearned incomes, expansion of the social safety net to encompass discomfort rather than strict need, socially funded medical services that cover more than critical care and necessary treatment, an ever-expanding list of required "preventive" screenings and treatments as free services, living wages for part-time jobs that should be predominantly filled by high-school kids, diversity of external characteristics as a business objective while seeking strict conformity of thought and viewpoint... Off the top of my head.

As an example of the ever expanding preventive requirements... the shingles vaccine shouldn't be *free*. Available, yes, absolutely. But shingles is not contagious and is also not lethal. It's painful and super duper sucks, but it's not a public health risk nor life threatening. I'm happy that the vaccines are available, and I've got an appointment for mine coming up... but it shouldn't be mandated to be provided free of cost to the consumer. Similarly, I don't think PReP should be mandated to be covered for free. It's great that it exists, and I'm all for it being available. But seriously, wear a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ condom and don't do needle drugs and the risk of contracting AIDS is virtually nonexistent. Society as a whole shouldn't be obligated to pay the cost for the lack of responsibility of a few.

PReP is probably cheaper than treating for HIV infections. The NHS (effectively a universal health insurer) took a similar view until studies showed supplying PreP was the most cost effective option. I am not sure what the cost of PReP is in the US, but if taken regularly the non NHS (private) cost of PReP is about £60 / month. If you only need it intermittently then it is cheaper, just take a double dose at least 2 hours before doing anal, then a dose the next day and the day after that (this doesn't work for vaginal sex) which costs <£10, not much different in cost from condoms.

 

[Blue Mountain]

I can't believe that you actually thank Emily's Cat for her fabrication and think that she is "not a follower of hard-right ideology"!

What I thanked Emily's Cat for was actually posting a list that could be discussed. As subsequent posts show, many of her points have been rebutted.

Thank you for providing a comprehensive response, especially with regards to Marxist underpinnings. I actually did put her response into an LLM (lumo.proton.me) and read its analysis, which mostly mirrors yours. But I still don't trust LLMs enough to take them at their word, so I didn't summarize the analysis and post it here. Instead I chose to critique the points themselves instead of assessing their roots in Marx's writings.

 

[dann]

'Resistance' talking on a new meaning ITT.

Like so much other stuff when we're dealing with the human race, resistance begins with ideas.
Emily's Cat has presented the ideas behind the fascist takeover of America. One way of resisting that takeover is the Taylor Robinson or Luigi Mangione approach, but I don't think that's very effective on a large scale because it doesn't really deal with the fascist ideas themselves. It is an impotent response to fascism.

In the case of Robinson, instead of dealing with Kirk's ideas, he chose to shoot the man. It's a very primitive response, obviously. If he had been serious about doing away with the hate spread by Kirk, he would have had to sit down and seriously study the form in which Kirk was spreading hate: as ideas. It is not at all difficult to do so, and it is made so much easier by the people who have already done so. Mehdi Hassan is an example of that.
1 Progressive vs 20 Far-Right Conservatives (ft. Mehdi Hasan) (Jubilee on YouTube, July 20, 2025 - 1:40:53)
Mehdi Reflects On Jubilee Appearance (The Majority Report on YouTube, July 28, 2025 - 56:17)

What made Kirk dangerous wasn't the man. He was in no way unique, exquisitely brilliant or anything like that. It's the whole apparatus supporting him that's the real problem. How little Kirk meant became obvious in the clip that's been shown again and again of Trump being asked about Kirk and making it clear that he didn't give a damn about him.
Kirk's ideas live on, and the memorial service was all about that and not at all about the man. His ideas live on because they were already nothing but the common ideas of radicalized conservatism, i.e. fascism. And a whole bunch of similar idiots are already competing to replace him.
Who Will Replace Charlie Kirk? (Airmail News, Sep 20, 2025)
The same ideas with another face, which is why he won't be missed - not even by his fans.

This is even more obvious in the case of Brian Thompson, Luigi Mangione's victim. He was the head of UnitedHealthcare, but he was as easily replaced as Charlie Kirk and as little mourned by the shareholders as Kirk by Trump. He was put in charge to do a job that his company wanted him to do, he did it, and now somebody else does it. Killing him may have affected his (apparently somewhat estranged) family, but it changed nothing about the company.
What did change was the way that people started talking about the U.S. healthcare-for-profit system. Nothing much has come out of that discussion yet, but it has made people realize that everybody else has the same opinion of the health-care business - and on a bipartisan level.
(I just googled UnitedHealtcare + the resistance to see what Google's AI would come up with. It's ... interesting.)

Emily's Cat has presented the hard-right ideas in all their ugliness. The resistance against those ideas is pretty clear, which is no surprise because the ideas themselves are conspicuously bad and obviously fabricated. They don't rely on grasping what's real or on presenting what is real in a new way that is easier to grasp than earlier attempts.
Emily's Cats ideas have been met with a response that should be as discouraging to hard-right conservatives as the response to Pete Hegseth's recent speech to his generals. An obvious difference between the two settings is that Emily's Cat holds no sway over us unlike the way Hegseth does over the U.S. military.

I think it bodes well for the resistance.

 

[dann]

PReP is probably cheaper than treating for HIV infections. The NHS (effectively a universal health insurer) took a similar view until studies showed supplying PreP was the most cost effective option. I am not sure what the cost of PReP is in the US, but if taken regularly the non NHS (private) cost of PReP is about £60 / month. If you only need it intermittently then it is cheaper, just take a double dose at least 2 hours before doing anal, then a dose the next day and the day after that (this doesn't work for vaginal sex) which costs <£10, not much different in cost from condoms.

I didn't know what PReP is, so I googled it and found this: What is HIV PrEP? (NHSinform.scot)
It doesn't seem to distinguish between "anal, vaginal or frontal sex."

 

[dann]

What I thanked Emily's Cat for was actually posting a list that could be discussed. As subsequent posts show, many of her points have been rebutted.

Thank you for providing a comprehensive response, especially with regards to Marxist underpinnings. I actually did put her response into an LLM (lumo.proton.me) and read its analysis, which mostly mirrors yours. But I still don't trust LLMs enough to take them at their word, so I didn't summarize the analysis and post it here. Instead I chose to critique the points themselves instead of assessing their roots in Marx's writings.

The principle seems to be that anything MAGA doesn't like can be claimed to have its roots in Marx's writings.
The irony is that what they themselves are doing is claimed to be something Marx came up with, like this one:
"Accuse Your Enemy of What You Are Doing, As You Are Doing it to Create Confusion” (from X)

And occasionally, they then happen to get something right, like the one about: maximization of leisure time as an objective.

It's the horror of the upper classes: the lower classes getting some free time to spend on whatever they please. They might have time to think for for themselves and figure out things on their own or just enjoy life.
'Work is the curse of the drinking classes.'

 

[Flo]

It's the horror of the upper classes: the lower classes getting some free time to spend on whatever they please. They might have time to think for for themselves and figure out things on their own or just enjoy life.
'Work is the curse of the drinking classes.'

And this is why the one thing that didn't ever lack in shops aisles even at the darkest times or the Soviet Union was vodka …

 

[Disbelief]

Why do you think it's a lack of empathy to encourage people to get the vaccine, but not expect everyone else to foot the entire bill for it?

I encourage people to take a multivitamin - do you think it reasonable to expect that the public should have to pay for everyone to get multivitamins instead of having to buy them on their own?

Because the poor may have to decide between a vaccine and food. Because if someone who is poor get shingles, they may end up going to the ER to get treatment, which would be much more expensive than the vaccine.