So there was this female speaker on an elevator

[3point14]

Are you *serious*? Women can dress however they like without implying they're interested in having sex with you. There isn't a rulebook and it's not straightforward, but neither is it all that difficult.

I think you miss my point, but let's explore this.


Yes, you are absolutely right. Women can dress however they want without it implying that they want to have sex with me.

Could you tell me how it's possible to tell the difference between the ones that might fancy a quick roll in the hay and those that don't.

You've already ruled out me propositioning those that aren't dressed in revealing attire, you've now just ruled out those that are.

I've got to tell you, I don't like your version of the rules, it does seem like I'm not allowed to have casual sex with a stranger. I think under your rules I need to wait for a woman to approach me, and, sadly, that never happens.

 

[latsot]

I'd just like to know what Latsot meant by "being on a casual sex forum" since he stated he was not referring to the internet.

An internet forum, a singles bar, a party where it's understood the intention is to hook up. The important part is that everyone understands what the intention is, it doesn't matter where or on what medium it exists.

That's what I mean, apologies for not being more clear.

 

[Bytor]

Oh, I get that this particular set of circumstances creeped this particular woman out. But I don't really get why it would, or how he could possibly have been expected to have known in advance that it would.

To me what he did, as she described it, seemed perfectly polite and reasonable. Even if we assume that an invitation to talk more really meant an invitation to something else, I honestly don't see why it would creep somebody out. The rules for this, if any, seem arcane and difficult to grasp, at least for me. Given that I would be horrified to find that I had made a woman feel that way, not to mention the potential cost of doing so... seems to me like the only thing to do is play it safe.

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand you: You think it's perfectly OK for a man to corner a woman in an enclosed spaced late at night and out of sight of others and make what most reasonable people would see as a sexual proposition? Even though the man has had little - if any - interaction with her?

Do you not think that the context in which the proposition is made might have an effect on how it is received? Yes, the guy should have been smart enough to realize ahead of time that his actions could come across as creepy or even threatening. Because if he doesn't realize that, then he must be ignorant of the fact that so many women suffer some form of sexual assault through their lives, or, if non ignorant, he just doesn't care that women get assaulted.

I do not understand why you would think this empathy would be such a difficult thing?

 

[PGH]

An internet forum, a singles bar, a party where it's understood the intention is to hook up. The important part is that everyone understands what the intention is, it doesn't matter where or on what medium it exists.

That's what I mean, apologies for not being more clear.

You said you were not referring to the internet and I had poor reading comprehension for assuming that. So either you didn't mean internet or you have some apologizing to do.

Would you refer to being at a singles bar as "being on a casual sex forum"? Or a party?

You typed it because you meant internet. When I later referred to that you insulted me for thinking you meant internet. I really hate having to waste thread space with something so trivial but I simply won't let you call me dumb for thinking you meant internet when you in fact did.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I noticed that recently on SGU she is no longer living in London, and now this story, she refers to herself as a single woman. Did I miss some juicy gossip?

Not really. They're separated, on their way to (presumably) a divorce. Still on friendly terms, as far as I know.

 

[Antiquehunter]

An internet forum, a singles bar, a party where it's understood the intention is to hook up. The important part is that everyone understands what the intention is, it doesn't matter where or on what medium it exists.

That's what I mean, apologies for not being more clear.

Hmm... so casual sex (and hitting on people looking for casual sex) is 'OK' in the context of contrived situations that are known to just be a 'meat market'.

However, humans can and do 'hook up' for a date (that may or may not become sexual) and that first date sometimes leads up to a relationship that lasts for multiple dates, months, years, the rest of their lives. Its been my experience that sometimes the best relationships (my own included) take place as a result of one of these spontaneous conversations.

So - there need to be some guidelines of engagement. From a Darwinistic perspective, I daresay that the men who are able to come up with non-threatening / non-creepy ways to approach women for a date or more, are the most likely to succeed in that endeavor. Mr Elevator Guy's somewhat creepy approach certainly wasn't successful - he didn't get a hookup and he ended up wasting precious gigabits of internet bandwidth in the ensuing debate.

 

[3point14]

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand you: You think it's perfectly OK for a man to corner a woman in an enclosed spaced late at night and out of sight of others and make what most reasonable people would see as a sexual proposition? Even though the man has had little - if any - interaction with her?

Do you not think that the context in which the proposition is made might have an effect on how it is received? Yes, the guy should have been smart enough to realize ahead of time that his actions could come across as creepy or even threatening. Because if he doesn't realize that, then he must be ignorant of the fact that so many women suffer some form of sexual assault through their lives, or, if non ignorant, he just doesn't care that women get assaulted.

I do not understand why you would think this empathy would be such a difficult thing?

I'd have to agree that the guy should have been smart enough to work this out. Some people are just not very empathic. Alcohol (if it was involved) can effect judgement as well.

The approach was clearly not wise and not warranted and the guy had clearly just not been listening.

I just fail to see how this is in any way a gender issue. I don't see this as an act of sex discrimination.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Again, the problem seems to be that intentions are not clear, and propositioning is a standard method of determining interest -- some are arguing a necessary and successful method.

Of course, I believe casual sex to be morally wrong, and so it is perfectly fine with me if essentially following the "rules" you're espousing means that it's not possible, in most circumstances, to hook up. But I really doubt the feminists who are proposing these "rules" agree with my attitude toward casual sex.

It is universally understood that rejecting a proposition or advance is an uncomfortable experience for both parties. However, it is usually understood to be an accepted part of the social environment. You try to read signals and make advances that will be welcome, but the whole purpose of asking is to acknowledge that both parties are in control and to give the opportunity for the other party to accept or decline.

Because turning down someone is uncomfortable, condemning any proposition that makes a woman uncomfortable is the equivalent of condemning any rejected proposition. And as long as we accept that the propositionee gets to make a choice, we need to accept that at least some rejected propositions were reasonable to make.

It's also reasonable to express why the specific circumstances of the proposition make it specifically inappropriate. But trying to generalize it to all rejected propositions is wholly unreasonable.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

NO WOMAN ADVERTISES THAT THEY WANT CASUAL SEX.

You're correct 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time.

However, there was this one time (Dear Penthouse Forum...), about 15 years ago, honest to god true story, where a female acquaintance was sitting at a table with me and several friends, and announced "I'll <fornicate with> the first guy who buys me a scotch on the rocks". I assumed she was joking, but I thought, "what the hell". So I bought her a scotch on the rocks. She wasn't joking.

 

[Seismosaurus]

But why say that there is no reason why, when reasons were given that are not at all arbitrary?

And that helps you for this particular woman, in this particular circumstance. The next one will have different rules, and the one after that will have different rules, and so on. Men are expected to know them all, somehow.

But I definitely think he made a foreseeable error in etiquette. Good manners don't have to be an exact science, or always prevent affront, to be worth knowing about.

Personally I think he did absolutely nothing wrong. At worst he thought he'd try his chances with a woman he'd been talking to and so made a polite offer and backed off when it was declined. If that's rude then FSM help the human race, because we're going extinct.

 

[bookitty]

Want to know a breathtakingly idiotic assertion? Stating that unless a woman has advertised her availability for casual sex that means casual sex has never happened. I know people who've had sex without so much as speaking to the other person. Women don't advertise it. They simply don't. The only exception (because nothing is 100%) is a woman walking into a bar and announcing "SOMEONE'S TAKING ME HOME TONIGHT!!" Yes it happens. But casual sex happens WAY more often without that ever being said.

I was a bartender on and off for 20 years. I saw about a gazzillion hook-ups. Women who walk up to random guys and proposition them, women who were grudge-sexing someone they didn't even like and all points in between. It happens because women get horny too.

The most common hook up regardless of gender - People who are feeling frisky going somewhere and having a good time. If someone there is fun, they end up wandering off together.

 

[latsot]

Want to know a breathtakingly idiotic assertion? Stating that unless a woman has advertised her availability for casual sex that means casual sex has never happened.

Do you understand that this is a forum for logical and skeptical debate? Also do you know that what you've said before is still there and we can look back to check? Because you keep attempting to change what it is you're saying, though you keep ending up at the same place.

Yep, that would be pretty idiotic. Fortunately, I didn't say that or anything like it. Go back in the comments as far as you like and you won't find me saying that. Neither will you find me changing my point. I came at the same point from several slightly different directions but I didn't change what I was saying.

I know people who've had sex without so much as speaking to the other person.

Obviously, so what?

Women don't advertise it. They simply don't. The only exception (because nothing is 100%) is a woman walking into a bar and announcing "SOMEONE'S TAKING ME HOME TONIGHT!!" Yes it happens. But casual sex happens WAY more often without that ever being said.

Well, women sometimes do advertise it. But there are degrees of casual sex, of course. Walking up to someone in a lift and asking them straight up for sex? Hardly ever works out. Meeting someone in a bar, taking an hour or two to make a connection with them? Much more successful.

Again wrong. It's not always a man's fault if a woman is scared or insulted.

Why not? Women in this sort of situation are often scared because they have a lot to worry about. They have to worry whether the man is likely to assault them. They have to worry about whether there's an escape route. Because rape and other attacks happen all the time. Men have much less to fear from women. So if men bear this in mind when they approach women and act appropriately, women are much less likely to feel threatened.

 

[3point14]

Yep, that would be pretty idiotic. Fortunately, I didn't say that or anything like it. Go back in the comments as far as you like and you won't find me saying that. Neither will you find me changing my point. I came at the same point from several slightly different directions but I didn't change what I was saying.

Oh, I really, really do beg to differ.

Walking up to someone in a lift and asking them straight up for sex? Hardly ever works out.

Yep. Hardly ever. This is infinitely more often than never.

 

[rustypouch]

It's not *easy*. Who said it had to be *easy*? But a large part of the difficulty lies in trying to understand people's motives, fears, desires... Rather than just deciding to proposition someone because you're horny.

Well, I believe it was you who implied it was easy.

"I am somewhat shy, and socially awkward. I often have trouble picking up signals, especially those relating to romantic interest. "

Aw. Boo hoo.

"How are we supposed to know if we're freaking out a lady, or if she is just as socially awkward and nervous as us, or just flirting for the fun of it?"

It is really *really* simple. If she's not obviously advertising casual sex (for example, by being on a casual sex forum of some kind) don't act like she might want casual sex. Don't proposition her in a lift, for example. If you want sex, casual or otherwise, get to know the person. Make an effort. Demonstrate that you're interested in the person rather than just her naughty bits. Shy or not, it's the only way to do it. Whatever you do, don't blame women's freaking out at your stupid, clumsy advances for your inability to get your end away. It's all you and your attitude that's to blame, I'm afraid.

Or perhaps I am just too slow to grasp the subtleties between "easy" and "really *really* simple."



And Boo, I don't go to TAM for casual hook ups. It's just a bonus. But if a guy like me can get some play there (and more than random hugs and gropings from Toby) there's hope for anyone.

 

[Antiquehunter]

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand you: You think it's perfectly OK for a man to corner a woman in an enclosed spaced late at night and out of sight of others and make what most reasonable people would see as a sexual proposition? Even though the man has had little - if any - interaction with her?

Do you not think that the context in which the proposition is made might have an effect on how it is received? Yes, the guy should have been smart enough to realize ahead of time that his actions could come across as creepy or even threatening. Because if he doesn't realize that, then he must be ignorant of the fact that so many women suffer some form of sexual assault through their lives, or, if non ignorant, he just doesn't care that women get assaulted.

I do not understand why you would think this empathy would be such a difficult thing?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I want to chime in here.

I think it is 'OK' - as in 'legal' to do what Elevator Guy (EG) did. I don't think it was very sensitive, I don't think it was very suave or well-planned. I don't think it had a high likelihood of success with RW or indeed, the vast majority of women. So it was NOT a good move.

I don't believe that what he did was intentionally objectifying, threatening, or designed to be strangely assertive. I don't think RW is suggesting it was either. She didn't LIKE the approach, the approach made her feel uncomfortable, and she dealt with it.

I also have been to enough conferences to realize that we seem to attract an eclectic cross-section of attendees, and I've seen a lot of quirky behaviour. So to suggest that what this guy did was insidious is indeed, reading too much into the situation.

I agree whole-heartedly, that out of politeness, consideration, and improved chance of success, that this person should not make it a habit of doing what he did. However with a couple of very small changes to the story, then the nefariousness of the approach could be explained away.

For example, if the story was 'Guy was actively speaking to RW in the bar, and were engaged in protracted conversation. They were part of a larger group of attendees, and when Rebecca excused herself, he did likewise. They board the elevator together. The guy says 'I really had a great time talking with you this evening, and I enjoyed your talk. I didn't feel comfortable asking you this in front of all those other people, but I really would like to continue our discussion later. Would you be interested in coming up to my room, or meeting after the conference?'' From my perspective, that defuses the 'creep' element significantly. Its still perhaps a bit icky - but there is no Hannibal the Cannibal element to this approach, in my opinion.

And of course, now everyone is free to call me a creep.

 

[latsot]

Hmm... so casual sex (and hitting on people looking for casual sex) is 'OK' in the context of contrived situations that are known to just be a 'meat market'.

Yes.

However, humans can and do 'hook up' for a date (that may or may not become sexual) and that first date sometimes leads up to a relationship that lasts for multiple dates, months, years, the rest of their lives. Its been my experience that sometimes the best relationships (my own included) take place as a result of one of these spontaneous conversations.

Sure. But generally because you make a connection because you actually TALK to a person before you suggest sex. Look, I'm not saying spontaneous sex doesn't happen, I'm saying that barging up to a woman in and suggesting sex when you're not in the context of a date or a meat market or whatever is likely to be considered threatening. This isn't a misfiring on the woman's part, but on the man's.

 

[Morrigan]

I'm confused about something here. Is this summary of what happened accurate?

- Rebecca gave a talk at a conference, and continued to talk to other attendees at a bar late at night. [The speech/conversation included her objections to being sexualized at those conventions, and mentioned that she got threats of rape.]*
- At 4 AM, after announcing she was tired and was going to bed, she went into an elevator with another man present.
- The man in the elevator said he found her talk interesting (presuming he heard what she said) and wanted to "get to know her better over coffee".
- Rebecca politely said no, and was uncomfortable about the proposition.

* This is the part I'm unclear about. Was her talk about disliking to be sexualized at conventions etc. really before the elevator incident, or was it just something she said in the video after? In her post on Skepchick, she said, "This is especially interesting since Richard Dawkins sat next to me in Dublin and heard me talk about the threats of rape I get."

So if Rebecca talked about how she doesn't like to get hit on at convention, and then she gets hit on, then yeah, I can understand her being miffed. In her place, I wouldn't really be uncomfortable (maybe a little) so much as irritated at the utter lack of respect for her words. It's as if the guy was trolling her. "Hey, that was a nice speech, what you said about women in skeptic convention and stuff. Let's have sex?" Uh, wot? Seriously?

If, however, I got the facts wrong and she didn't talk about that in the speech beforehand, then it's just a matter of some guy being awkward. I understand her being uncomfortable but I'm not sure making a "don't do that guys" public video about it is a good idea. Sounds like a bit of an overreaction.

She didn't have the social skills to realize she would get banned for her joke.

Oh, I wanna know now. What happened? Why was she banned?

 

[Delscottio]

An internet forum, a singles bar, a party where it's understood the intention is to hook up. The important part is that everyone understands what the intention is, it doesn't matter where or on what medium it exists.

That's what I mean, apologies for not being more clear.

I understand you probably don't mean it but you aren't half painting a picture of women that use these mediums are 'fair game'.

I used to be a member of a swinging site and it wad really really poor practice to proposition someone without knowing someone, same goes for singles nights etc, the rules of the game appeared to be exactly the same as normal, the ones who had social skills got more attention and those like the lift chap got no where. The point is in my experience every social setting is pretty similar and as long as you treat people with adequate respect etc the results are pretty similar.

 

[Humphreys]

Well, women sometimes do advertise it. But there are degrees of casual sex, of course. Walking up to someone in a lift and asking them straight up for sex? Hardly ever works out.

Let's try not to forget that the guy did not actually do this, and there is every chance he really did want a chat and coffee.

To rule out this possibility is incredibly sexist.

For all we know, the guy was gay!

Edit: He may also have been trying to distract her so he could steal her purse, let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

For all we know, the guy was gay!

That makes it even creepier!