So it WAS Illegal After All!

This is incorrect:
peptoabysmal said:

...
It cracks me up when people call the war with Iraq a "pre-emptive strike". The first war was never officially over, we were in cease-fire mode and Saddam was not living up to his end of the treaty. What is so hard to understand about that?
...
U.N. Resolution 687 -a ceasefire in the war of 1990-, doesn't spell 'attack Hussein in Iraq'.

U.N. Resolution 678 -starting the war in 1990- spells 'attack Hussein in Kuwait' so that Kuwait is freed.

'attack Hussein in Iraq' is nowhere in the U.N..

'attack Hussein in Iraq', that's Bush outside of the U.N..


678 :
authorizes use of all means necessary to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;


660:
demands that Iraq withdraw immediately and unconditionally all its forces to the positions in which they were located on 1 August 1990;


661:
sanctions if 660 is not followed;


662:
demanding, once again, that Iraq withdraw immediately and unconditionally all its forces to the positions in which they were located on 1 August 1990;
determined to bring the occupation of Kuwait by Iraq to an end and to restore the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Kuwait;
determined also to restore the authority of the legitimate Government of Kuwait.


The objective of resolutions referred to in 678 is having Iraq out of Kuwait and having the state of Kuwait reinstated.

This goal for which the use of force was authorized is accomplished in 1991 thus ending the authorization to use force, unless the U.N.S.C., which remains seized of the matter – not the U.S. – decides otherwise

The authority of the U.N.S.C. in this matter is further stressed and accepted by the U.S. in all following resolutions including:

687: ceasefire conditions
34. Decides to remain seized of the matter and to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area.


1441: threat of serious consequences
14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.


687 was the ceasefire which also said that the U.N.S.C. remains seized of the matter.

It was up to the U.N.S.C. - not the U.S. - to decide if Iraq violated the agreement, and if yes how to react to that violation.

Any action by the U.S. without U.N.S.C. authorization is a violation of 687 and all other Iraq resolutions after it.

The U.N.S.C. did not again authorize the use of force against Iraq despite desperate U.S. attempts to obtain such authorization in February 2003.

It is the U.N.S.C. – not the U.S. made of Bush, Perle, Powell, etc. – who had the authority (as recognized by U.S. in its signature) to authorize further use of force.

The U.N.S.C. didn't authorize further use of force against Iraq.

Thus, the Bush war in Iraq is illegal by world standards.
 
Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

Here is the explicit promise by the U.S. to not use force without the U.N. Security Council Authorization if 1441 was violated:

here

"As we have said on numerous occasions to Council members, this Resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA, or a member state, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12."

I repeat:

this shows the explicit promise by the U.S. to not use force without the U. N. Security council authorization.

The promise is broken by Bush's U.S..

Q.E.D.
 
Ion said:
This is incorrect:

U.N. Resolution 687 -a ceasefire in the war of 1990-, doesn't spell 'attack Hussein in Iraq'.

U.N. Resolution 678 -starting the war in 1990- spells 'attack Hussein in Kuwait' so that Kuwait is freed.

'attack Hussein in Iraq' is nowhere in the U.N..

'attack Hussein in Iraq', that's Bush outside of the U.N..


678 :
authorizes use of all means necessary to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;


No need to go any further. I pointed this out a long time ago, "and all subsequent relevant resolutions." If you think that Iraq was complying with the subsequent relevant resolutions then you are completely deluded. There was nothing illegal about this war. You can argue about whether or not war was the best means to solve the Iraq problem but not whether or not it was legal.
 
Re: Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

Ion said:
Here is the explicit promise by the U.S. to not use force without the U.N. Security Council Authorization if 1441 was violated:

I repeat:

this shows the explicit promise by the U.S. to not use force without the U. N. Security council authorization.


That shows no such promise. Nice selective quoting though:
As we have said on numerous occasions to Council members, this Resolution contains no "hidden triggers" and no "automaticity" with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, reported to the Council by UNMOVIC, the IAEA, or a member state, the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12. The Resolution makes clear that any Iraqi failure to comply is unacceptable and that Iraq must be disarmed. And one way or another, Mr. President, Iraq will be disarmed. If the Security Council fails to act decisively in the event of a further Iraqi violation, this resolution does not constrain any member state from acting to defend itself against the threat posed by Iraq, or to enforce relevant UN resolutions and protect world peace and security.
 
Re: Re: Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

ssibal said:

That shows no such promise. Nice selective quoting though:
It does.

And it spells that U.N. is to be seized on the matter.

"...acting to defend itself..." which you stupidly (what else?) highlighted is not U.S. acting solo to defend itself from Iraq, or to enforce alone relevant resolutions pertinent to reinstating Kuwait:

.) no WMDs, no Al-Qaeda, no Niger uranium, so no threats from Iraq, but lies galore instead, remember?

.) the resolution 678 and the ceasefire 687 were designed by U.N. (not by U.S.) for reinstating Kuwait, and the reinstatement of Kuwait was achieved and done with.

U.S. is a criminal attempting to wear a sferriff badge here.
 
That's how stupidity goes:
ssibal said:


No need to go any further. I pointed this out a long time ago, "and all subsequent relevant resolutions." If you think that Iraq was complying with the subsequent relevant resolutions then you are completely deluded. There was nothing illegal about this war. You can argue about whether or not war was the best means to solve the Iraq problem but not whether or not it was legal.
U.N. was to be seized on the matter to decide.

It's spelled in each U.N. resolution.

U.N., not U.S., got that?
 
Who is this ssibal?

Who cannot read clear statements of signed documents?

Even though ssibal is using documents and links that I research and I post, with no efforts by ssibal, then ssibal can not chew them because of suffering indigestion...
 
Re: Re: Re: Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

Ion said:
And it spells that U.N. is to be seized on the matter.

"...acting to defend itself..." which you stupidly (what else?) highlighted is not U.S. acting solo to defend itself from Iraq, or to enforce alone relevant resolutions pertinent to reinstating Kuwait:

How stupid of me for highlighting the whole sentence.....:rolleyes: Where does it say relevant resolutions prertinent to reinstating Kuwait in the U.S. explanation on the vote for 1441? It does not. In their explanation, which is what I was addressing, they explicitly said to enforce relevant UN resolutions.
 
I cannot believe that people like ssibal live in idiocy.

I posted this, didn't I?
Ion said:

...
1441: threat of serious consequences
14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.

...
"...14. Decides to remain seized of the matter..." means that U.N. (not U.S.) "...Decides to remain seized of the matter.".
 
Ion said:
That's how stupidity goes:

U.N. was to be seized on the matter to decide.

It's spelled in each U.N. resolution.

U.N., not U.S., got that?

So, do you think Iraq was complying with the subsequent relevant resolutions? If your answer is no then the UN was already siezed on the matter in resolution 678.
 
Ion said:
Who is this ssibal?

Who cannot read clear statements of signed documents?

Even though ssibal is using documents and links that I research and I post, with no efforts by ssibal, then ssibal can not chew them because of suffering indigestion...

Ion, if you try to remember, I posted the same documents and links a while back and you denied that the subsequent resolutions were relevant to 678.
 
Ion said:
I cannot believe that people like ssibal live in idiocy.

I posted this, didn't I?

You also posted this which you keep ignoring:
authorizes use of all means necessary to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

Another imbecility by ssibal:
ssibal said:


How stupid of me for highlighting the whole sentence.....:rolleyes: Where does it say relevant resolutions prertinent to reinstating Kuwait in the U.S. explanation on the vote for 1441? It does not. In their explanation, which is what I was addressing, they explicitly said to enforce relevant UN resolutions.
My post says that 1441 has no "...relevant UN resolutions." to be enforced by U.S. alone:

.) resolutions about Kuwait are out;
so 678 and ceasfire 687 that imbecility from ssibal tries to bring in in this thread, they are out;

.) threat by Iraq is out;

.) the U.N. (not U.S.) is to decide on breaches;
see the texts that I posted.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

Ion said:
Another imbecility by ssibal:

.) Kuwait (so 678 and ceasfire 687 that imbecility from ssibal brings in this thread, are out);

Wait, are you saying that Iraq was in compliance with the terms of the ceasefire? Ion, there is nothing more to discuss with you concerning this, I might as well argue with a 6 day creationist.
 
ssibal said:

You also posted this which you keep ignoring...
The text that you quote comes from 678.

For the fourth time in this thread:

.) 678 was to restore Kuwait;

.) Kuwait was restored:

.) 678 is done with.

If 678 was not done with because Iraq breaches the ceasefire 687, then U.N. is to be seized on the matter, not U.S., and U.N. is to act on the 678 and 687, not U.S..
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding U.N. Resolution 1441

ssibal said:

Wait, are you saying that Iraq was in compliance with the terms of the ceasefire?
...
The resolutions do spell out that it is U.N. "...to remain seized on the matter..." of whether Iraq complied with the ceasefire 687.

Not U.S..

For example, 1441 (i.e.: "...14. Decides to reamin seized of the matter..."), does that.

U.S. tried to dupe U.N. in February 2003 that Iraq didn't comply with the ceasefire 687.

It didn't work:

U.S. was debunked, as really looking for oil in Iraq.
 
peptoabysmal said:
[...]
On the other hand, this international court implies a global governmental structure and is very Socialist in that regard. We all know how well Socialist experiments turn out.
<off-topic>Good grief, where do you people come up with this stuff? Is there a Little Blue Book of Hysterical Things to Say About Socialism or something?</off-topic>
 

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