So, is the Palestinian Intifada over?

[Art Vandelay]

Mycroft

What they really need is someone to give them permission to struggle in a different way.

I don’t understand what you are saying here. How can anyone “give permission”? Do you think that Palestinians already want to struggle in a different way, but they do not feel that they have permission? Do you think that a single person can give them the feeling that they do have permission?

BTW, welcome to the forum. You are a refreshing change from the same old tired arguments

Thanks.

 

[allanb]

You would rather women and children be sent to martyr themselves than peacefully negotiate an end to the "occupation".

Why do you write "occupation" in quotes? It is an occupation, and an illegal one.

If a US state was occupied by (say) Canada or Mexico in pursuit of a religious objective, and had no army to defend itself, would you say to its people "Don't resist! Accept the fact that they are destroying your houses and settling on your land! Negotiate peacefully!" I doubt it.

There was a well-respected fellow called Patrick Henry who said: "Give me liberty, or give me death", and at least one US state (New Hampshire, if I remember correctly) turned this idea into its slogan: Live Free Or Die. It seems to me that's a fair statement of the policy being followed by a lot of young Palestinians.

I think suicide bombing is appalling. But given the intractability of Israel and its evident support from the mighty USA, someone who has spent his life in the slums of Gaza City might see it as the only possible way to achieve anything.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Why do you write "occupation" in quotes? It is an occupation, and an illegal one.

It is an occupation, I put it in quotes because people always talk about the occupation and the "illegality of it" but never admit the reasons there is an occupation. Those reasons include a war in 1967 and the failure of the Palestinan Authority to stop terrorism as mandated by the obligations in the Oslo accords, Israel-PLO Recognition, Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities, Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, The Wye River Plantation Agreement, The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement, Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) and the Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

All those 'peace treaties' state that Israel is responsible for security and public order inside Israel and outside Israel on settlements until a) the terrorism stops and b) the Palestinian Authority arrests and stops the terrorists operating from their territory....Ironically the terrorists of Hamas, Al Aksa, Islamic Jihad not only threaten Israelis but threaten and undermine the authority of the Palestinian Authority and it's goal of a Palestinian state. That is why the occupation still exsists.

 

[a_unique_person]

It is an occupation, I put it in quotes because people always talk about the occupation and the "illegality of it" but never admit the reasons there is an occupation.

By a strange act of fate, the Palestinians are to blame for everything that has happened to them.

Those reasons include a war in 1967

Which Israel started.

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/1967war.html

I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997

[/quote]

and the failure of the Palestinan Authority to stop terrorism as mandated by the obligations in the Oslo accords,

[/b][/quote]

Both sides were in breach of the accords, the policy of the Israeli government, as recently repeated by Sharon, was that settlements never stopped being created.

Israel-PLO Recognition, Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities, Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, The Wye River Plantation Agreement, The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement, Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) and the Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

All those 'peace treaties' state that Israel is responsible for security and public order inside Israel and outside Israel on settlements until a) the terrorism stops and b) the Palestinian Authority arrests and stops the terrorists operating from their territory....Ironically the terrorists of Hamas, Al Aksa, Islamic Jihad not only threaten Israelis but threaten and undermine the authority of the Palestinian Authority and it's goal of a Palestinian state. That is why the occupation still exsists.

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy, we keep getting shot at because we won't stop the occupation. Very convenient for those who care more about fairy tales of past glory than real people suffering and dying now.

 

[zenith-nadir]

By a strange act of fate, the Palestinians are to blame for everything that has happened to them.

No...you are wrong...the Palestinians have not had the choice as to what happens to them Haj Amin al-Husseini, Gamal Abdel-Nasser and Arafat have been the sole decision makers/dictators regarding the fate of all Palestinians on the earth. And history doesn't lie...those three guys made terrible decisions which have placed the Palestinians where they are today. Insead of peace all three chose war, you can't lie about that one a_u_p.

p.s. you need to read up some more on the 1967 war. Prior to Israel's offensive Syrian planes were bombing Israeli civilians as Nasser blocked the Straights of Tiran, forced the UN troops out of the Sinai and massing Arab forces moved towards Israel borders. That is in addition to the attacks by Palestinian fedayeen. That is why the 1967 war started.

 

[a_unique_person]

No...you are wrong...the Palestinians have not had the choice as to what happens to them Haj Amin al-Husseini, Gamal Abdel-Nasser and Arafat have been the sole decision makers/dictators regarding the fate of all Palestinians on the earth. And history doesn't lie...those three guys made terrible decisions which have placed the Palestinians where they are today. Insead of peace all three chose war, you can't lie about that one a_u_p.

p.s. you need to read up some more on the 1967 war. Prior to Israel's offensive Syrian planes were bombing Israeli civilians as Nasser blocked the Straights of Tiran, forced the UN troops out of the Sinai and massing Arab forces moved towards Israel borders. That is in addition to the attacks by Palestinian fedayeen. That is why the 1967 war started.

You are doing what you accuse me of. From what I have read, the policy of resistance to invasion is a broadly popular one for Palestinians, as it naturally would be. You are invaded, you fight back. Human nature.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You are doing what you accuse me of. From what I have read, the policy of resistance to invasion is a broadly popular one for Palestinians, as it naturally would be. You are invaded, you fight back. Human nature.

So what? you fight back and fight back for 60-70 years until your streets are battlegrounds, your children strap bomb vests on themselves and your leader rules out of a bombed-out building? Oh...wait a sec...that's already happened. I can smell victory any time now.

There have been three decision makers for every palestinian on earth since 1900. All three have failed the Palestinians.

 

[Mycroft]

You are doing what you accuse me of. From what I have read, the policy of resistance to invasion is a broadly popular one for Palestinians, as it naturally would be. You are invaded, you fight back. Human nature.

Unless maybe you never had political control of the land to begin with and there were peaceful avenues available for you to negotiate that political control.

Once again you portray the Palestinian-Arabs as only being capable of reaction and not decision making.