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So I just watched Ben Stien's Movie

Smiledriver

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Jun 4, 2007
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168
So I watched Actor/Economist/Speechwriter and Intelectual at Large Ben Stien's movie today.

So what do we think of some of his claims?

Specifically,

1.) That while slight changes in nature over time is evident, we do not have evidence of one species becoming another.

2.) That the peer review process is hostile to views/evidence that run counter to established theories?

Discuss.
 
I saw that site. I just thought the JREF'rs might have a diverse point of view and I wanted to start a discussion.
 
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1.) We have quite clear evidence of dinosaurs becoming birds, and quadrupedal mammals becoming whales.

2.) This is deceptive You cannot conflate views and evidence in this way. The peer view process is indeed hostile to views contrary to established theories, but it is not hostile to any evidence. There is a healthy degree of skepticism towards evidence that counters established theories, but the standard response is for others to attempt to replicate the evidence, or to repeat the test with improved controls.

The highest plaudits in science go to those who disprove established theories with replicable evidence. Countering the "hostility" (better called "skepticism"), using the scientific method is a necessary step leading to such plaudits.
 
I saw that site. I just thought the JREF'rs might have a diverse point of view and I wanted to start a discussion.

Fair enough, I haven't had a chance to see it yet so I can't comment directly, though a few people that I know that saw it had a really bad taste in their mouth, with the whole Nazi emotional connection the movie tried to establish.

http://communities.canada.com/vanco...lowed-producer-defends-anti-darwin-movie.aspx

I read this a couple of days ago and found it interesting that the guy who financed it.. how they intentionally wanted to make people mad. And this guy said that it was Stien's idea to use the Holocaust, where Stien said it was this guy's. Hm..

Love your avatar BTW.
 
Stein jumped into the "Intelligent Design" loony bin when The American Spectator (which publishes his column) was bought by Alfred S. Regnery, a known ID nut.
 
Anytime that a debater or someone posing an argument tries to tie someone in any way to Nazism they have probably jumped the shark and lost the argument before they even started. I don't have the link anymore but the best argument against intelligent design was the coverage of the trial in Ohio. The "science" of ID was totally blown away in court. The judge was a conservative George Bush appointee, but he still knew which side was presenting shinola and which side was presenting the opposite.
 
So I watched Actor/Economist/Speechwriter and Intelectual at Large Ben Stien's movie today.

So what do we think of some of his claims?

Specifically,

1.) That while slight changes in nature over time is evident, we do not have evidence of one species becoming another.

2.) That the peer review process is hostile to views/evidence that run counter to established theories?

Discuss.

Were you persuaded that these were possibly legitimate concerns by this movie?

Linda
 
I mean if the academics faced the the kind of harassment the film said they faced over just trying to present a view counter to the established view then the cynisim of the ID community to the peer review process is somewhat justified.
 
1.) That while slight changes in nature over time is evident, we do not have evidence of one species becoming another.

Was the limiting mechanism identified? No? There you have it.


2.) That the peer review process is hostile to views/evidence that run counter to established theories?

This point is not as ridiculous as the first. As scientists tend to be humans, they suffer from all the failings that come from that condition. Envy, pride, stubborness, etc can serve to delay a verifiable finding but not to quench it altogether. The stronger the evidence, though, the faster the resistance is overcome.

The problem for the IDers is that they have no evidence. So they will always be derided. They've turned the Scientific Method on it's head. They have the answer before they've asked the question.

Pretty much the intent of this point is to claim virtue by comparing onself with a great who was ridiculed. It's tantamount to my being laughed at and my stating that they also laughed at Einstein. Being laughed at does not make me an Einstein.
 
I mean if the academics faced the the kind of harassment the film said they faced over just trying to present a view counter to the established view then the cynisim of the ID community to the peer review process is somewhat justified.

I agree. So do you think that they did face that kind of harassment? Do you trust that they didn't misrepresent or make-up the information presented in the film?

Linda
 
So I watched Actor/Economist/Speechwriter and Intelectual at Large Ben Stien's movie today.

Besides your referral to Stein as an "intellectual" without the benefit of a smilie, the fact that you're jumping in with an argument from authority makes me suspect you are a cdesign proponentsist.

He's an actor, an economist, and a speechwriter. So what? Is is a biologist?

NO!

So what do we think of some of his claims?

They're lies. Pure and simple.

1.) That while slight changes in nature over time is evident, we do not have evidence of one species becoming another.

2.) That the peer review process is hostile to views/evidence that run counter to established theories?


No. We have nearly 150-or-so years of evidence, from multiple sources and disciplines, that shows that all life on this planet share a common ancestor and that life has changed over the course of 4.5 billion years due to a process of random mutation and natural selection.

Now, if you or Ben Stein really think that evolution didn't happen and that all life was "poofed" into existance by an invisible, Bronze Age, tyrant who lives outside the universe (whatever the frack that means), then you must provide evidence before the mean, old, "atheist," scientistic community will take you seriously. It's the way the scientific method works.

What is the testable, reproducible, empirical, and objective evidence, that proves ID is correct? What lab experiments can you site? How about fossil evidence that shows Yahweh's meddling in the biological record? What forces and factors did Jehovah use to create and modify life, how did he produce and manipulate them, and why did he make the decisions that he made? What predictions does ID make?

Show us why evolution is wrong and prove to us ID is right, then we'll talk about whether or not it was fair for "Big Science" to ignore the collection of religioius fanatics trying to pose as scientists that Stein presents.
 
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So what do we think of some of his claims?

Specifically,

1.) That while slight changes in nature over time is evident, we do not have evidence of one species becoming another.

Complete and total ********. Such a blatant lie that if Pinocchio told it, his nose would wrap all the way around the earth and hit him in the back of the head.

2.) That the peer review process is hostile to views/evidence that run counter to established theories?

Views, yes, somewhat. Evidence, no.
 

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