So, how 'bout that voter fraud, eh?

[SezMe]

I don't think there was significant electoral fraud but I do think our election process is a mess. From the registration process, to the electronic machines, to the proprietary software and machines by the vendors to the processes by which all the votes are counted, there are way too many holes for me to have a lot of confidence in the system. There's much improvement that could be made.

 

[Random]

The investigations were part of the ploy? What, are you suggesting that the different police agnecies, FBI, or whoever else was involved, was actually in on this thing? So did Bush somehow really coherce these agencies to investigate to push the issue? Seriously? Do you realize that sounds like a ridiculous conspiracy theory?

How hard could that be? The head of the FBI is a Bush appointee. Do you remember the Attorney General scandal? AGs were fired for not pursuing bogus voter fraud charges. Do you think they were replaced with AGs who would also refuse to persue bogus voter fraud charges? The Bush administration was been filling the Justice Department with right-wingers for years.

And how complicated does the conspiracy need to be? You just need to launch an "investigation" that doesn't even need to find anything. The press takes care of the rest. "We investigated ACORN for allegations of voter fraud and found nothing." can easily become "We investigated ACORN for allegations of voter fraud..." in the hands of FOX News.

Presto, instant GOP talking point. Believe me, the right wing will be pushing the "ACORN investigations" line long after they have been cleared of all wrongdoing.

I live in Milwaukee, and was first hand witness to the "smokes for votes" and the case where the sons of an Alderman and Congresswoman (IIRC) slashed tires at a Republican "get out the vote" station to keep them from being able to get around and pickup people to take them to vote. It was reported locally by our papers and TV stations. Vote fraud is real and does happen. I do not deny the possibility that people on the Right engage in it as well, and I find that equally deplorable.

Tire slashing, fake registrations, even ballot box stuffing and machine tampering are not voter fraud. Voter fraud is when someone walks into a polling station and illegally casts a vote. That is incredibly rare, and the GOP knows it, that's why they like to muddy the water with voter registration fraud, a completely different problem.

Here is a fun exercise. Try to find any GOP rep who is willing to give an estimated number of fraudulent votes cast in any election in the past two decades. Not fake registrations, not complaints about ballot stuffing in Chicago, but actual people coming in and casting fraudulent votes. It doesn't even have to be an accurate number, just a GOP rep who is willing to state one for the record.

But I think that this idea that it's all just created as a smokescreen to disenfranchise certain voters is a ridiculously naive position. I seriously do not mean any disrepect here.. but you are swallowing the Democratic line hook, line and sinker. I can't understand why anyone at all would not want to take seriously the issue of voter fraud. It affects every single one of us. Every fraudulent vote cancels out a legitimate one. It should be investigate, and if there are ways to reform the system without disenfranchising people, it should be done.

I suppose the GOP claims that they are not trying to disenfranchise voters would sound more believable if they didn't have a history of disenfranchising voters. And people don't "take the issue of vote fraud seriously" because it just isn't nearly as big a problem as GOP bleating would have you believe.

 

[Dr Adequate]

2) not even the loons at FreeRepublic are dumb enough to claim that ACORN could account for a 7-point Obama victory in the popular vote.

Yes they are, I looked.

 

[CHF]

Yes they are, I looked.

Wow.

I'd ask them for a single example of a phony vote being cast by ACORN in this election but I'd probably get banned for it.

 

[BeAChooser]

Why, it's almost as if the whole "voter fraud" conspiracy was just a bunch of made up nonsense the GOP ginned up to hassle poor and black voters.

No, concern about voter fraud is a legitimate concern.

Consider for example, that a democrat won the Washington governorship in 2004 by a margin of only 129 votes out of 2.8 million. After multiple recounts that for some reason always increased democrat votes. But in one county alone, officials found there were 1800 more votes cast at voting booths than there were people who had signed in to vote. After the election, officials examined rolls and deleted over 50,000 registrations.

Then consider that in 2007, in Seattle Washington, prosecutors indicted seven workers for Acorn in what Secretary of State Sam Reed said was the "worst case of voter-registration fraud in the history" of the state. And of course, that wasn't the only case of Acorn being caught handing in fraudulent registrations. How those registrations might get used is another issue but it isn't impossible to use them ... especially when identity isn't checked at the polling booth because democrats insist it not be.

Now I don't know whether enough fraud took place to have changed the outcome of this election ... probably not from the looks of things ... but voter fraud is a reality and there are investigations under way by the FBI.

It's a concern that Obama has appointed as his Chief of Staff a member of the Chicago democrat machine which was even known to vote dead people.
The real proof that Obama is clean will be if any of the voter or campaign finance fraud allegations are investigated and prosecuted once he's in office. As far as the latter is concerned, I suggest he start by finding out who "PRO, DOODAD" and "GOOD, WILL" is since that individual or group clearly and knowingly violated the law by making contributions of over $30,000 to Obama's campaign by credit card. Obama campaign claims the money was returned which leads me to believe they know the identity of that donor. That person should clearly go to jail. Now let's see if Obama is as honest as you all claim.

 

[leftysergeant]

Consider for example, that a democrat won the Washington governorship in 2004 by a margin of only 129 votes out of 2.8 million. After multiple recounts that for some reason always increased democrat votes.

A lot of it involved wet ballots stuck together as they were fed into the counting machinery. It rained a bit around here on election day. Then there were a bunch of ballots that somebody, for some reason, stuck into a gap between some bins or some such. (Now who would have a reason to do that in a heavily-Democratic area like Seattle?)

But in one county alone, officials found there were 1800 more votes cast at voting booths than there were people who had signed in to vote.

That I hadn't heard. Which county? If Yakima or Snohomish, blame the garbage machines that that idiot Reed allowed into the state.

Then consider that in 2007, in Seattle Washington, prosecutors indicted seven workers for Acorn in what Secretary of State Sam Reed said was the "worst case of voter-registration fraud in the history" of the state. And of course, that wasn't the only case of Acorn being caught handing in fraudulent registrations.

Were these regular staffers or paid signature collectors? ACORN would be the victim, if the latter. ACORN does not issue the voter registration card. ACORN just submits the applications. They check them and identify possibly bogus applications and those that they have confirmed. The fake collections cost ACORN money and do not put any more voters on the rolls.

How those registrations might get used is another issue but it isn't impossible to use them ... especially when identity isn't checked at the polling booth because democrats insist it not be.

BS! We have a Democratic majority in the legislature since 2006 and i had to show ID to vote.

 

[Just thinking]

Tire slashing, fake registrations, even ballot box stuffing and machine tampering are not voter fraud. Voter fraud is when someone walks into a polling station and illegally casts a vote.

So I get a fake voter registration and then cast a vote under that fake registration. In one breath you say it's voter fraud and in the next it isn't?

 

[Tricky]

Tire slashing, fake registrations, even ballot box stuffing and machine tampering are not voter fraud. Voter fraud is when someone walks into a polling station and illegally casts a vote.

Any casting of an illegal vote (whether you walk in to the polling station to do it or not.) is voter fraud. If you stuff a ballot box, that is casting illegal votes. Machine tampering may or may not be casting illegal votes, though usually it is the deletion of legal votes, not the adding of fraudulent votes.

But it is true that fake registration is not voter fraud unless a fake registration is used to vote. As far as I know, Mickey Mouse did not show up at the polls.

 

[Just thinking]

But it is true that fake registration is not voter fraud unless a fake registration is used to vote.

Yes, I thought I made that point quite clear. But what is it that determines a vote/voter being fraudulent except for the registration under which it occurs? What other means are there in finding out? Even if the person's ID is a match at a given polling station, a duplicate registration elsewhere (in multitude, even) is what will be used to render it fraudulent. Hence, fake registrations should immediately raise the red flag of suspicion.

As far as I know, Mickey Mouse did not show up at the polls.

I was in Disneyworld on November 4th and voted absentee ... but I could have sworn I saw him standing in line somewhere.

 

[BenBurch]

Wow.

I'd ask them for a single example of a phony vote being cast by ACORN in this election but I'd probably get banned for it.

Count on it.

So, use a proxy IP address and a fake registration to ask such questions there if you actually care about keeping your membership.

 

[BeAChooser]

A lot of it involved wet ballots stuck together as they were fed into the counting machinery.

And only democrat ballots did that?

Which county? If Yakima or Snohomish, blame the garbage machines that that idiot Reed allowed into the state.

King County. And in King County they "discovered" additional ballots 9 different times. What a coincidence. Furthermore, there were at least 557 names in the January 7, 2004 King County Voter Data Base for people who voted on Nov. 2, 2004 but who weren't listed in the November 1, 2004 King County Voter Data Base. Only 94 of the 557 names are in the December 29, 2004 King County Voter Data Base.

ACORN would be the victim, if the latter.

lefty ... if it had only happened once or twice during the past decade or so, perhaps I might buy that excuse. But ACORN has been involved in this sort of thing over and over during that time. It's willful behavior on their part ... and growing worse.

We have a Democratic majority in the legislature since 2006 and i had to show ID to vote.

Well first of all, voter ID laws vary from state to state and it is true that democrats are the entities fighting such laws in state after state. Second, officials are supposed to check ID. That doesn't mean they always do being rushed or lazy.

By the way, did you hear about the case in Seattle of the women who registered her dog, Duncan, to vote as a protest against the process. She submitted absentee ballots in three elections on the dog's behalf. Each was signed with a paw print and each had void written on them. Even after an official called the first time because of the void and paw print, she continued to receive ballots in the mail for future elections and send them in with the same markings. Election officials admitted that she probably wouldn't have been caught if she hadn't blown the whistle on herself by doing that ... i.e., if she'd just forged a signature for Duncan and submitted the vote. And despite the fact that this was clearly a protest to show how easily the system could be circumvented and she succeeded, they prosecuted her. Do you think they should prosecute ACORN, lefty?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Wasn't the election bought and paid for by the GOP? What happened to Diebold? What happened to the vast right wing conspiracy? Personally I think it was all BS but you gotta admit, the BS coming from the right wing is ever so much more interesting.

Well the 2000 election with florida deciding to remove so many black voters on its rolls becuase they were close enough, by their loose standards, to some convicted fellon would seem to be pretty bad.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I'm sick of this strawman that the right only complains about vote fraud as some evil plan to keep minorities from voting.

Get real. The only reason anyone complains about vote fraud is as a pretext to challenge the validity of the election and/or to try to ensure that people of the other side don't vote (or that their votes don't count). It was true of the left in 2000 (at leas the 'challenge the validity' part) and it is proving true of the right in 2008.

I think the right does engage in the second reason for complaining about vote fraud more, to disenfranchise voters of the other side, but only for the most practical of reasons; they have a more easily identified target, minorities. If the left had a group of consistantly right leaning voters that they could target easily, they' d be doing the same damned thing.

 

[leftysergeant]

And only democrat ballots did that?

No, mostly votes in King County did that. A few other locations on the west side of the Cascades. It is usually wet here on election days. If two ballots are stuck together with any frequency, it will most adversely effect the dominant party in that area. Democrats are more numerous on the wet side of the mountains, so who would lose the most votes from double-feeds?

King County. And in King County they "discovered" additional ballots 9 different times. What a coincidence.

There are two possibilities. Either the ballots got stuck to the bottoms of the bins when someone stacked them (it's damp here, you know) or someone may have tried to hide some ballots from counting. It is obviously impossible to take them out of the warehouse or shred them without being detected, and I fail to see how anyone could have brought them in were they not already in the bins that were delivered to the counting site. And, in case you hadn't noticed, there is a very large populatiuon in King County.

Furthermore, there were at least 557 names in the January 7, 2004 King County Voter Data Base for people who voted on Nov. 2, 2004 but who weren't listed in the November 1, 2004 King County Voter Data Base. Only 94 of the 557 names are in the December 29, 2004 King County Voter Data Base.

Idiot boy Reed didn't see any discrepency, where do you get documentation for your data? The election results were certified after the books were reconciled by a Republican, you must keep in mind.

... if it had only happened once or twice during the past decade or so, perhaps I might buy that excuse. But ACORN has been involved in this sort of thing over and over during that time. It's willful behavior on their part ... and growing worse.

You increase the numbers of people gathering signatures, even at the same error rate, the error numbers go up. Simple arithmetic.

Usually, it is ACORN who spots the errors. Now, were they turning in the forms (they're accountable, you know. Do you understand what that means?) and tried to get known duplicates and forgeries on the rolls, you would have something of significance to say here.

By the way, did you hear about the case in Seattle of the women who registered her dog, Duncan, to vote as a protest against the process.

Ask our idiot Republican Secretary of State how that sort of thing happens.

Do you think they should prosecute ACORN, lefty?

No, they should prosecute Ashcroft, Gonzo and Mukasey.

 

[BeAChooser]

Either the ballots got stuck to the bottoms of the bins when someone stacked them (it's damp here, you know) or someone may have tried to hide some ballots from counting.

ROTFLOL! Hanging chads. Wet ballots. There is ALWAYS an excuse it seems why democrat lost elections need to be challenged. And for some reason none of those excuses every seem to cause republican vote totals to rise in comparison to democrats. Bad luck?

Have you followed the Al Franken case, lefty? Now they found 32 absentee ballots supposedly sitting in the trunk of an election official's car (a democrat's, of course). And they weren't in a sealed box. What they were doing there hasn't been explained, since by law they weren't supposed to be there. A liberal judge has ruled those votes count despite the fact that state law says all ballots must be counted on election day. And surprise, surprise, most are for Al Franken, a democrat.

Why is it that only in the liberal strongholds of Two Harbors and Partridge Township, do election officials say they "miscommunicated" vote totals, adding about 350 votes to Franken's? And isn't it odd that in other contests in Two Harbors, none of the other contests recorded any change in their vote totals.

Or how about that time stamp on the exactly 100 votes discovered in Mountain Iron, another democrat stronghold? They are stamped 2 days before the election. Just an accident? And is that region so strongly pro democrat that every single vote went for Franken and Obama? NO area in Minnessota went 100% for Obama and Franken. This REEKS of election tampering. Yet they are being counted.

Odd how everything always seems to swing towards democrats.

 

[leftysergeant]

ROTFLOL! Hanging chads. Wet ballots. There is ALWAYS an excuse it seems why democrat lost elections need to be challenged. And for some reason none of those excuses every seem to cause republican vote totals to rise in comparison to democrats. Bad luck?

It's simple arithmetic. If a vote fails to register in a Democratic region, there is a high probability that it was a vote for a Democrat. This is not rocket science.

And surprise, surprise, most are for Al Franken, a democrat.

Why would he not have wanted to turn them in? Yes, stupidity runs in both parties, and stuff gets handled wrong.

Why is it that only in the liberal strongholds of Two Harbors and Partridge Township, do election officials say they "miscommunicated" vote totals, adding about 350 votes to Franken's? And isn't it odd that in other contests in Two Harbors, none of the other contests recorded any change in their vote totals.

Are the votes all totalled in one run or are they run through once for each contest? The latter seems more reasonable. Any re-tabulation or examination which does not address the other races will obviously not effect the results of those contests.

Or how about that time stamp on the exactly 100 votes discovered in Mountain Iron, another democrat stronghold? They are stamped 2 days before the election. Just an accident? And is that region so strongly pro democrat that every single vote went for Franken and Obama? NO area in Minnessota went 100% for Obama and Franken. This REEKS of election tampering. Yet they are being counted.

Out of a hundred votes in a working-class area, 100% is not an utter impossibility. The time stamp? Good question, but I do not have all the information I need. Are we talking about absentee ballots. They would have to be post marked before the cut-off on election day. They can be recieved later as long as they have the right post mark. Was there early voting there? Slovenliness could account for some discrepencies.

Odd how everything always seems to swing towards democrats.

Given that most people were swinging toward the Democrats, why would it work out to the advantage of the Republicans?

 

[Giggywig]

Wasn't the election bought and paid for by the GOP? What happened to Diebold? What happened to the vast right wing conspiracy? Personally I think it was all BS but you gotta admit, the BS coming from the right wing is ever so much more interesting.

Let me search for a second...

Of course.

This is why Obama needs to win by a huge margin; The fix is in and we need to win by much, much more than can be fixed.

Seems the fix wasn't in after all.

 

[BeAChooser]

Out of a hundred votes in a working-class area, 100% is not an utter impossibility.

ROTFLOL! You folks ALWAYS have an excuse.

By the way, the other votes for the precinct where these extra 100 votes were discovered was NOT 100% in favor of Obama and Franken. democrats won the vote in that precinct by only a ratio of 2 to 1 (http://electionresults.sos.state.mn...s.asp?M=P&Precincts=69SAINT LOUIS_0820&LD=05A ). So the probability that a 100 additional votes would show up that are 100% for democrats is so remote as to defy all logic and common sense.

And aren't you even curious that they found EXACTLY 100 votes? That in itself is a little unlikely, wouldn't you say, lefty?

The time stamp? Good question, but I do not have all the information I need. Are we talking about absentee ballots.

No. These votes were from voting booths.

Was there early voting there?

No, democrat election officials are claiming these are votes from the 4th.

Really, lefty, if you can't see this example as a indication of foul play, I really don't think ANYTHING would convince you. Certainly not the fact that almost all of Franken's votes came from just 3 of 4130 precincts.

By the way, do you know that ACORN filed more than 43,000 registrations in Minnesota, about 75 percent of all new registrations in the state? Hmmmmm ....

 

[tyr_13]

So your basic argument is that ACORN was successful at registering people? And that most of those people voted Democrat? Or that the votes that seem to have been hidden were for the Democrat? Wouldn't that point to fraud on the other end?

Or is it that Democrats tend to live near each other?

What a huge conspiracy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wasn't the election bought and paid for by the GOP? What happened to Diebold? What happened to the vast right wing conspiracy? ....

Obama numbers too big to be stopped.