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Smoking Gun for Ratzinger. That's it!

I actually think Ratzinger and others would fall clearly under California Penal Code 273a: Child endangerment. Are there any experts who understands California's statutes of limitations? From what I can tell in California " statutory periods do not begin until offense is or should have been discovered." How would that apply to secret internal policies that lead to child endangerment?

As a foreign head of state I think the Rat probably enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Perhaps we could declare it an ongoing terror attack by religious extremists on our children and declare war on the Vatican?

It would be worth it just to see what those guys have stored away in the vaults from nearly 2000 years of pillage, er, I mean spreading the good word.
 
Sadly, I am not surprised to hear this news.

It'll be interesting to see the response from the Vatican. I'm fairly certain they'll find yet more inventive ways to dig their hole ever deeper...

:dig:
 
At this point; I wonder why nobody asked the Hague's tribunal to look into this
 
The one thing in all this mess that never ceases to amaze me is that the Catholic Church has no concept of why people are angry.

They keep bleating about how priests are not the only child molesters, how it happens in other places, etc etc and so-forth. All the defenses I've seen focus on this. Oppression and Tu Quoque rule the day with them.

But while such things do happen, other groups and organizations don't hide it, protect the offenders, and move them to fresh pastures.

The Catholic Church did. Knowingly and repeatedly.

And somehow they don't understand that this lying and mishandling of the crimes is why people are mad.

They think the people are mad about the abuse cases. Well, we are. But the overriding concern among the critics is that the Catholic Church knew it was happening, not not only did they do nothing, they actively enabled it and protected the guilty.

Why they can't understand this is a mystery to me.
Or maybe not. Perhaps it's simply that admitting they handled the issue "poorly" would be admitting infallibility and sin, on behalf of the Church as a whole.

Let them howl. Their please for calm amuse me. Because they seem incapable of addressing the basic issue people are mad over.
 
I can't see an issue here. RC's simply go to confession whenever the spirit moves them, talk through a laundry list of what sins they have commited since their last confession ("I buggered 27 boys yesterday), get told to say a few rosarys, and come out as pure as the driven snow,

So what's the problem? They confess and are no longer sinners, until the next confession, and they can again be purified an hour later. I assume that The Rat simply assumes that they have been forgiven by God, so let it go, and screw the poor kid (Literally)

Norm
 
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I just had a vision of many thousands of outraged Catholics storming the Vatican and razing it to the ground, while dealing out of hefty dose of mob justice using baseball bats and a variety of other blunt instruments...

... a frightening, but eerily satisfying, vision. I suppose a guy can dream, can't he?
 
I just had a vision of many thousands of outraged Catholics storming the Vatican and razing it to the ground, while dealing out of hefty dose of mob justice using baseball bats and a variety of other blunt instruments...

... a frightening, but eerily satisfying, vision. I suppose a guy can dream, can't he?


I wouldn't want to see that happen. More violence is the last thing this world needs.

Besides, it would be better to force the Vatican to split a percentage (say, a nice round 90%) of its vast wealth among the abuse victims.

No more elaborate jewelry and funny hats.
 
Ratzinger could die (82 years old one stroke already it's a posibility).

If this were to happen, how many people would suspect that he was offed by some cardinals who wanted to save the Church the indignity of having the Pope arrested?
 
The one thing in all this mess that never ceases to amaze me is that the Catholic Church has no concept of why people are angry.

The level of cognitive dissonance on the part of the RCC is absolutely staggering, but in a weird way it makes sense when you realize they've been living in an echo chamber of their own making for hundreds of years while the rest of the world has moved on. In many ways, I think their brains are still stuck in the pre-Enlightenment era.

In fact, I heard on an NPR story this afternoon that, believe it or not, the vast majority of the RCC priesthood seem to have the attitude that their Church has been "under attack by secularism" for quite a long time. And, mind-bogglingly, they somehow see this outrage over the sexual abuse cover-up as nothing more than an extension of this "secularist attack".

It's pretty frakked up, but there you go... wow.
 
I wouldn't want to see that happen. More violence is the last thing this world needs.

I agree. It's just something that popped into my head, and it satisfied my schaudenfreud (sp?) impulse.

Besides, it would be better to force the Vatican to split a percentage (say, a nice round 90%) of its vast wealth among the abuse victims.

No more elaborate jewelry and funny hats.

I think that would be a good start. That and prosecuting every last bastard involved in this cover-up.
 
If this were to happen, how many people would suspect that he was offed by some cardinals who wanted to save the Church the indignity of having the Pope arrested?

After seeing how they can rationalize things as horrible as covering-up massive amounts of child rape, I wouldn't put much of anything past them at this point.
 
I can't see an issue here. RC's simply go to confession whenever the spirit moves them, talk through a laundry list of what sins they have commited since their last confession ("I buggered 27 boys yesterday), get told to say a few rosarys, and come out as pure as the driven snow,

So what's the problem? They confess and are no longer sinners, until the next confession, and they can again be purified an hour later. I assume that The Rat simply assumes that they have been forgiven by God, so let it go, and screw the poor kid (Literally)

Norm
.
That's the problem... the "sin" is not seen as the crime it is.
The Church feels it is above that mere secular concept, apparently.
A novena or three, shift to a new parish (target rich environment) and continue preying... on the children.
 
He is not REALLY protecting the pedophile, he is just saying (rightfully) that going public will have a negative effect on both the priest and the church and that must be taken into consideration.
Maybe he just called for a diligent fool-proof inquiry, to make sure not to punish an innocent? [/apologetist]
No, the priest in question had pled guilty to the charges. The Cardinal then made his pathetic excuses to not defrock the guy, and actually sat on the issue for at least eight months. Several other members of the church hierarchy tried to persuade Ratzinger that not defrocking the preist would be more harmful than simply not acting, but Ratzo was convinced that the first consideration should be to the "universal church", not its minor members who have been , and may continue to be, molested.
Although, since there was a guilty plea in court, the charges that this letter constitutes a "cover-up" are unfounded. The letter rather constitutes an example of a dispicible man who doesn't care that an abuser is a member of his club, as long as his special club still seems cool.
 
In fact, I heard on an NPR story this afternoon that, believe it or not, the vast majority of the RCC priesthood seem to have the attitude that their Church has been "under attack by secularism" for quite a long time. And, mind-bogglingly, they somehow see this outrage over the sexual abuse cover-up as nothing more than an extension of this "secularist attack".

Since this is a skeptics' forum...

Who knows, maybe some of them actually buy the Prophecy of Malachy? Ratzinger is supposed to be "Gloria olivae", so here comes the Tribulation. "Others have pointed to the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel of Matthew and argued that the events described therein will come to completion during the reign of this Pope. These people argue that the Tribulation will begin during the reign of Benedict XVI."

If the prophecy says it's going to happen, you roll with it, right?

The last pope on the list is "Petrus Romanus", who is pope "During the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church". Maybe he dissolves the organization, which is why the list ends. ;)
 
As much as I'd love to see this be the death-blow to the Catholic Church as we know it, I don't think much is going to come to it.

My ultra-Catholic father blames this matter on the notion "that "faggots" have been let into the preisthood." What the Church hierarchy has done to cover up the abuse doesn't factor into his thinking on the matter at all. My sister is also well aware of what the church has done, yet she works in the local Catholic hospital system, she just had her infant son baptized into the faith as she did her daughter, and she speaks glowingly of Ratzi's efforts to bring back the "traditions" of the Catholic church. Both of them, along with millions of other American Catholics, toss money in the collection plate each weekend, financially supporting this continued cover-up, knowing full well what's going on.

The fact of the matter is that rank-and-file Catholics don't give a damn what there Holy Mother Church does. If the facts surrounding the long and murderous history of their faith wasn't enough to get them to leave, why should a few abused children matter to them? As long as their precious "community" and "traditions" stays intact, I wager the Pope could slit the throats of newborns on the Vactican steps in front of a 100,000 people and world media and Catholics would still stand by him.

Nor will our governments, either here or in elsewhere in the world, do anything. The politicians of Western democratic nations, regardless of their own religious beliefs, won't jepordize their worthless careers by angering Catholic voters who'd think their faith is under "attack" if Ratzi and his gang were made to face justice. In America, Dubbya gave the Rat in the Hat immunity from prosecution surely as a means of buying the votes of right-wing Catholics. I'm sure other such deals exist elsewhere.

And then, when the media finds something else shiny and distracting to focus on, the paltry trickle of press coverage the story is receiving will stop and soon all we be forgotten by the public. And the Church will gone on... business as usual.
 
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I can't see an issue here. RC's simply go to confession whenever the spirit moves them, talk through a laundry list of what sins they have commited since their last confession ("I buggered 27 boys yesterday), get told to say a few rosarys, and come out as pure as the driven snow,

So what's the problem? They confess and are no longer sinners, until the next confession, and they can again be purified an hour later. I assume that The Rat simply assumes that they have been forgiven by God, so let it go, and screw the poor kid (Literally)

Norm

Well; the confession and the repentance have to be sincere.
If the priest administrating the confession does not feel the guy is sincere (for example, molested a few more children since his last confession and does not seem to be making an effort to change), he is normally not supposed to gie an absolution...
 
Don't all cults ultimately result in sexual abuse? I mean, isn't that what they're FOR? ... besides making money tax-free, that is.
 
Don't all cults ultimately result in sexual abuse? I mean, isn't that what they're FOR? ... besides making money tax-free, that is.

I had a conversation about this with a nurse where I work the other night... (at three a.m... a good time for this type of conversation, I think.) She correctly pointed out that a lot of other churches have seen the same phenomenon. (She was specifically thinking of her Pentecostal church.) The difference with the RCC, though, is the prolonged, planned, deliberate, coordinated, MASSIVE, conspiracy coverup with a HUGE paper trail and smoking guns everywhere. :eye-poppi

What makes me so mad is that

a.) I have to believe in at least one conspiracy theory now. I'm not fond of them in general

and

b.) I defended the RCC for so long. Particularly b. I suppose that deep deep deep deep deep down, even after knowing how horrible it was (and is), I still really didn't want to believe that it was THIS bad-- but this particular piece of information pushed it all over the edge, for some reason. There's just something about knowing for a fact that the current pope specifically knew and specifically covered it up...
 
I am irresistably reminded of the words of Lord Denning when speaking of " the Birmingham Six". These 6 people were wrongly convicted of terrorism offences, and they were in jail for a very long time. Denning opposed the moves to right this wrong, and he said this:

Just consider the course of events if their action were to proceed to trial ... If the six men failed it would mean that much time and money and worry would have been expended by many people to no good purpose. If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further." [83]

This kind of thinking is not exactly unusual. You sometimes see it in very large corporations as well, I think.

It seems to me that our attitudes to that approach have changed radically over the last 30 years and we now expect that any large institution will respond to the discovery of wrong doing with an open admission of that wrong doing: with effective action to right it: and with due regard to, and involvement of, the criminal justice system.

But as the exampe of Denning shows, the criminal justice system is itself a powerful institution, and it is itself subject to the same processes which lead to the problem in the first place.

What I think is crucial here is not that the church has been slow to accept the changes in societal views of how such things should be handled: that is what you would expect. I think there is reason to believe that most of the very large and long-lived institutions have at least some members who would take the same view. And it is an arguable position (though seldom argued openly)

That is not to say that I agree with it: I think it is wrong and I am glad it is no longer accepted. But it seems to me that we should oppose on rational grounds, and so the dispute is not about the repugnance we feel about this particular issue. It is rather an argument about fundamental moral principles and there are some interesting questions in there

Denning and Ratzinger are essentially utilitarians. Their position is actually my main reason for rejecting that position as a basis for moral thought, because what leads to their conclusion is a notion of "the greater good". It is somewhat startling to find that the head of the catholic church is utilitarian in his standpoint: that the judiciary or other large scale institutions are, not so much. I think that some of the surprise arises from a view of the church as a pastoral entity and all of the expectations which arise from its "mission statement": all the rhetoric of care and compassion and "suffer the little children" etc etc. But mission statements are hurrah document: they seldom make explicit that part of the purpose of any organisation is to survive and grow and prosper and increase their power/influence/ market share. It is arguably the biggest part of their purpose and the omission is striking. Same with advertising: while it is probably true that the makers of Daz want to help you get your clothes cleaner, they want your money more: gettng your clothes cleaner is a means to that end for them: but not for you. We all know this but we do not keep it to the front of our minds as much as we should: or at least some of us don't. And of course they do not help us to remember it: why would they?

From the perspective of an honest but firmly institutionalised person it is perfectly possible to reconcile the conflicting aims: that does not make you evil though it does speak to a different set of values or at least to a different way of weighting moral conflicts. But why would that surprise us? Many here are moral relativists and they make a powerful case. Not one I accept, it is true, but it is a strong argument nonetheless

For this type of person there is a great focus on the importance of stability and societal cohesion. A threat to that is a threat to civilisation itself and they can honestly believe that undermining confidence in "the establishment", for want of a better word, will lead to anarchy. They consider that to be the worst of outcomes for all of us. They also think that they are working with the grain of human nature (or some variation of that theme) and that it does not matter what arrangments we make in society there will always be those who commit crime, or sin, or whatever word is applied to the problem in their particular appreciation of its source or its nature.

Seen in this light the organisation cannot avoid "evil" in its ranks: business men will embezzle; priests will sin; judges will reach conclusions not entirely based on the evidence. But for this mindset it is the respect for the organisation as a whole which stands between us and a breakdown in society. And there is a problem there too. An organisaton is made up of the people who run it together with the "mission statement" it avows. It is inevitable that we expect that every individual should embody the expressed values: and at the same time we know that this is childish.

They know too. We cannot really escape some culpability in the conclusions the powerful reach: for we collude. We recognise that we are all human: yet we jump on the human failings of those with power, and we look for "leaders" in peculiar terms. Why does it matter that Tiger Woods is not faithful to his wife? His golf is good and that should be all that matters. But it isn't. If we are to say that his admitted talents are in some way undermined by his private failings in an irrelevant sphere, then we will get hypocrisy on a stick. There can be no other outcome. And having forced that, we cut up rough when we get it.

If that is how we behave it is not irrational for an institution to wish to keep the failings of its personnel private. It does not follow that they do not take them seriously nor that they do not deal with them. Internal disciplinary codes etc are in place, for example in the police and professional bodies. This is not unusual. And those are subject to all the dynamics of small and large groups, just as the public judiciary is, as Denning's quote shows

WE have become aware of the failings of all these systems: and we have become distrustful of power. That is an interesting outcome because it the very thing which the lack of transparency seeks to avoid. Slowly those institutions are adapating to the change in the public mood. More and more "transparency" is called for and I have heard pundits in the business world say with confidence that the way to retain trust when bad things happen is to admit it; fix it; show that you have fixed it. Perhaps that is true: in the short term it certainly is, IMO. But unless we stop being indignant when such things come to light then in the long term I am not sure it is enough: and to that extent I understand the mindset I am describing. If you honestly believe that widespread lack of confidence in all and any institution will lead to the breakdown of society and the rule of law then it makes sense. It does not mean that you will not deal with any problems: just that you will wash your linen in private.

This particular scandal rests in part on the fact that sexual abuse was not really recognised in the past. The church is not alone in thinking that it was a very small problem in terms of prevalence: that is what most people thought (and still think). We are still learning how widespread it actually is, and that has not been easy because we are all uncomfortable with the idea that it might be more than just a few monsters who are not like us. Yet that seems to be true.

It is likely that the church thought it could deal with this internally: many have seen paedophilia in terms of a disease model, for example: you do not throw those with an illness to the wolves, if you are a decent human being: and that idea of supporting those who are troubled is also part of the particular values of the church. The complete failure to take account of the needs of the victims is where this fails hard. But again they are not unique in this: think of thalidomide or bhopal. It is what institutions do.

What do we prefer? We insist that part of the solution is to ensure that priests and businessmen and everyone should be subject to the civil and criminal law which applies to the rest of us: that seems right to me. It comes at the price of centralising power, and that may well be a good thing: on the whole I think it is. But it is perfectly possible to argue that a plurality of power-bases has value too. In the work place it is helpful to have some version of a union, else the employer can do what he likes: and he will. Absent union power we have various levels of employment law which ought to serve the same function as a check on power: but it is remote and there are losses from that approach as well as gains.

If we are to argue (as I do) that we must all live under the same law, then we absolutely must have confidence in it, and respect for it: or so I think. I have sympathy with those who see building and preserving that as a goal in itself. It is wrong to do so by hiding mistakes: but if we are unforgiving when things go wrong then they will be hidden. Within the establishment there are many who believe that the "great unwashed" are not fit to have the facts: but I think we often give them cause for that belief: enough to feed confirmation bias, at any rate.

On this board I have seen it argued that some people should not have the vote: this has been put forward quite seriously, and those who propose it are not monsters. But it is exactly the same mindset of elitism, so far as I can tell.
 
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A thought-provoking snipped...QUOTE]

Oh, I need to go to bed...

There's one thing that the RCC will never admit and which I don't think most people certainly want to think about, but which makes the utilitarian model essentially unworkable in this case even if someone did want to really put it forward: the priesthood and the hierarchy are increasingly being revealed, provably revealed by a paper trail and a witness trail, as a haven at the least and a manufacturing plant at the most for the abuse of children and a series of coverups of the same at all levels of that hierarchy.

Let's say that the argument is made that collateral damage is acceptable; the problem even in that case is that this is exactly the opposite of collateral damage. This is not a minor, unfortunate glitch that somehow accidentally arose as a tiny percentage of error while manufacturing the main product; this is a direct, profound consequence of choices made by the church at ALL levels, by individuals, by small groups, by large groups, by every imaginable combination of every kind of individual and every kind of group. This is so inextricably interwoven into the fabric of the church that it is the fabric, the warp and the woof. The production of thalidomide was not an inextricably interwoven and huge part of what that particular drug company did and the product they produced, as terrible as it was (and they also didn't cover it up for anywhere near as many years as the RCC did. And they didn't continue to cover it up for thousands and thousands of execs over many, many, many, many, many years, and continue to move those execs around to different parts of the country for decades and decades so they could keep hurting more kids, and.. you know what? The analogies fall apart very fast.) What do these analogies mean, anyway? The RCC was justified in covering it up, because gee, if we'd all known about it, then we would have been furious at them for molesting kids, resulting in "confirmation bias"? The public has no right to know? Privileged information really should be kept from the "unwashed masses?", unless we can all stay calm about it once we find out and not get upset, because then the church/corporation/whatever has every right to keep it from us? Can this possibly,possibly be meant seriously as an argument? I sincerely hope not.
 
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