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Smart Republicans

I'd vote for another Ike, or heck, even another Nixon. Even Bush Sr. was far superior to his son. I hate the fact that if I mention that I loath GWB as worse that Harding and Buchanan put together many people automatically assume that I must be far to the left, just before they ask who Harding and Buchanan are.

Steven

Yeah, but that goes both ways. If you didn't like Clinton, you had to be a far-right wing nutjob.

I think it's time for a new political party, personally. Having only two parties makes it too likely that they end up being fairly identical in the long run.

Marc
 
The phrase, BTW, is in reference to the mass suicide by the followers of Jim Jones.

Yeah, Jim Jones was GREAT in the role of Powers Boothe... wait a minute, maybe I got that backward.

It's a very good phrase. I can't think of a better one to replace it.

I dunno. I find it more than a little ironic that a group dominated by people who believe that an invisible supernatural being will soon cause the dead to rise and they themselves to suddenly disappear from the face of the earth in preparation for an apocalyptic battle with another invisible supernatural being should choose as a catchphrase a reference to one of the worst religious atrocities of modern times.
 
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Actually, how about the "normal" among the Republicans and the Democrats put their differences aside and form a viable third party? I suspect that there are fewer differences between the moderates on each side than there are between the moderates and their idiot party-mates. How about that for democracy? For once, I would like to vote for a candidate that I like rather than the lesser of two evils.

I think the problem here is that you end up splitting the vote. Scientists and those who believe in a strong separation of church and state are not a united voting block like the religious right. Their votes are divided among several political parties--including Libertarians, the Green Party, Independents, and those who don't care enough to vote--at least that is the case in America. So the lesser of two evils might not even have a chance at being elected. Iconoclasts aren't quite the voting block that those fearing damnation are.

Moreover, "secularists" are labeled as "evil" and "godless" and people like Katharine Harris are telling people that voting in such a manner allows these :evil secularists" to insert their "godless agenda" into politics. Ann Coulter and others do a lot of fear mongering too, so that religious people are afraid that voting for those other than evangelical Christians will lead to evil, doom, and assorted horrors having to do with going to hell in a hand basket. Religious people have come to believe that you cannot be moral without religion--particularly their specific religion...and that those who believe as they do fall under the umbrella of "good" and those who don't are "evil", dark forces bent on the destruction of family, religious freedom, the bible, the sanctity of marriage (as if) etc.

Salvation vs. fear makes people get out and vote. Secularism isn't such a compelling story...it's almost boring...it's "rational" and can't promise "happily ever after" or the thrill of fighting evil forces. It's a hard sell in a world of sound bites, I think.

I did just read Sam Harris' book Letter to a Christian Nation where he laid out why it's important that our governments be secular--he makes a very compelling argument, but true believers are taught not to trust such messages--to fear them--vote against them--shut their ears to them.
And Bill Maher, a Libertarian, points out that the Democrats don't stand for anything--they are not against religion enough...but how can they be, when the religious are such an "inspired" block of voters. Sam Harris points out that atheists are the least trusted minority in America, and that you can't expect to hold a higher office without professing to believe.

Dogmas are great for getting people to act (and vote) without thinking--people are moved by "ideals" and "emotions" and catch phrases and "fear" and the feeling of being chosen or special or having a specific purpose per divine authority--And once the religious snowball gets rolling, I don't know how you stop it. It seems to have gathered up a slew of Americans who vote similarly; wheras, those who oppose it split up their vote or don't vote at all due to a distaste of politics in general. Secularists and Scientists (some of whom are religious even) aren't a unified voting block, because how can you organize a group around something as prosaic as reality and a non belief in a supernatural overlord? And yet the United States Constitution has gone out of it's way to keep religion and politics separate--but the religious seem to have no clue in reguard to this fact. As other developing nations are becoming increasingly secular (particulary in government) and scientific; America seems to be turning into a theocracy where those who dissent are shouted down and labeled as treasoness or worse.

Secular societies are healthier. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html Evolution is a fact. And yet, the mere mention of it, makes Americans uncomfortable as a group. They hear it as "evil"-lution. I see this every day. There are so many exciting discoveries in the field, but the mere mention of it makes people go silent...as if they feel guilty for even revelling in some of our latest discoveries. And it is religions unsavory alliance with politics that makes it so. The people we are told to trust spread this disinformation and they encourage people to not trust science, facts, hard won knowledge, rationalism. It is religions coupling with politics that makes secular thinking something to be feared, and I hope that something somewhere can pierce this unholy alliance before this country gets any more divided on what an invisible guy in the sky wants (or whether he exists.)

As long as "faith" is seen as something "great", and "feelings" are promoted as good ways to "know something", then educating others in rational thinking and the benefits of secularism is going to be a tough job.

I wish I could think of a catchy meme for promoting facts over faith--because this idea that faith is something good is a notion that has infected many a mind--and it forms a strong barrier against reason. Why chance a blissful eternity by "biting from the tree of knowledge"?

I commend Richard Dawkins and his website: http://richarddawkins.net for his efforts on helping America out of this miasma of ignorance, and I hope we can come together enough to make progress.
 
I dunno. I find it more than a little ironic that a group dominated by people who believe that an invisible supernatural being will soon cause the dead to rise and they themselves to suddenly disappear from the face of the earth in preparation for an apocalyptic battle with another invisible supernatural being should choose as a catchphrase a reference to one of the worst religious atrocities of modern times.
When I said it was a good phrase I was speaking for myself. I don't believe in an invisible supernatural being so I don't think that it is ironic for me to use it. However I can see your point.
 
I commend Richard Dawkins and his website: http://richarddawkins.net for his efforts on helping America out of this miasma of ignorance, and I hope we can come together enough to make progress.
I think we should be careful to not overstate the problem. Though to be sure we should not underestimate the problems either. America is going through significant changes that many fundamentalists don't like and they are fighting back. There is a backlash from the liberal progress made during the civil right era. It is my opinion that in a couple of generations America will be far less religious than it is now. Freedom and democracy are powerful things. Many people don't want to give up football, baseball, fishing, hiking, and sports and other recreational activities in general on Sunday, R-rated films, violent video games, etc.. The culture war was decided a decade ago. Religion lost. I don't count religion out but there is no way that you are going to put the toothpaste back in the tube without an Islamic invasion or a large scale conventional or nuclear war. I say that in a sincere and sober manner.
 
I actually know a few. True, I personally think they're misguided, but I certainly wouldn't say they're not smart.
Given the current state of affairs it is certainly reasonable to conclude that many are misguided but then people being what they are it's not hard to find misguided people in any walk of life, ideology, etc.

The Republican party is certainly due much criticism at this time considering the over emphasis of BS platforms like gay marriage and I say that as an active registered Republican, but surely you don't think that all Republicans are misguided? That there is something intrinsic to the Republican party that would make membership unreasonable?
 
I think we should be careful to not overstate the problem. Though to be sure we should not underestimate the problems either. America is going through significant changes that many fundamentalists don't like and they are fighting back. There is a backlash from the liberal progress made during the civil right era. It is my opinion that in a couple of generations America will be far less religious than it is now. Freedom and democracy are powerful things. Many people don't want to give up football, baseball, fishing, hiking, and sports and other recreational activities in general on Sunday, R-rated films, violent video games, etc.. The culture war was decided a decade ago. Religion lost. I don't count religion out but there is no way that you are going to put the toothpaste back in the tube without an Islamic invasion or a large scale conventional or nuclear war. I say that in a sincere and sober manner.

I wish I could believe that...but I am concerned:

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060810_evo_rank.html

Faith does seem to be an impenetrable shield to logic and these pastor Ted super churches are growing...

I'm leary of any dogma that labels an entire group of people who believe differently as "evil"--that's scarier than labeling them dumb. You don't really try to kill and rally against and fight the dumb. But atheists are the least trusted people in America. And neocons aim to silence all those who don't tow the party line on both politics and religion. It has the momentum regimes are made off and the lack of rationality too--as there is this ever present clammer to drown out dissent and cast aspersions on those who ask questions. There is a powerful, connected, and wealthy group of people running our country who talk to an invisible diety and claim he is guiding them (and hence they have no apparent need of facts or advisors). People trust these "authority figures and those wingnuts the wingnuts they trust who are telling them that evolution is some nebulous theory and radiometric dating is a presumption and scientists are arrogant and secularists are responsible for all that ails America--(them and those darwinists and liberals who they all lump together under the umbrella of "evil atheists--). How any candidate pals in comparison to this is beyond me--even a drunken Ted Kennedy and a fellated President or someone boring or whatever other tangential issues some might have with other candidates. Isn't any candidate worth uniting behind to unseat the abysmal wake of scientific ignorance and backwards thinking and corruption left in the wake of this president's term (not to mention the loss of allies and world respect, the growing deficit, the greater divide between the rich and the poor, the divisiveness which encompanies our country. You are defending a group of people who would readily label you demonic--untrustworthy--because you don't believe in the invisible sky diety that they do.

Yes, there are smart Republicans...Hitchens is smart. Dennis Miller is smart. But they don't represent my viewpoint or the facts that are important to me on some topics that is for sure--nor are they particularly scientific. And I know you are smart Rand. But the skeptics I know that align themselves with this party (and I only know a few) tend to overlook a lot and ignore a lot and cover over a lot from my perspective--it reminds me the of the way religious dogma is softened or made more palatable or justified or spun. And I don't want to coddle peoples feelings if it makes them overlook some things that should be examined. If the article above doesn't make you think this is serious, then what about stem cells? Or the many people who suffer in a war that no one is really sure what it's for--not just Americans--but all sorts of people who have no say about what their government does. It's ugly. And it's uglier to know the profits made by both Halliburton and the oil industry--especially in light of the facts regarding global warming. It's hard to justify such expenditure when minimum wage has been the same for 9 years, gas prices are up, and Americans want help at home with healthcare and our borders and education. And many of us desparately want to return to our secular roots. I want to believe that my President and those who support this administration really have altruistic good intentions at heart, but it seems so obvious to me that it's their own financial health that is guiding their conviction. So help me understand what it is you find valuable about this party--or is it just fidelity to a group--like religion or being a cubs fan or what? And what would it take to get you to speak out against this party you align yourself with and apologize for so readily? What sort of facts made you choose this party and what sort of facts make people roll their eyes at all other candidates. Why was John Kerry unacceptable or what is so awful about Clinton. Most of the people I know including myself were much better off before Bush took office.
 
The Republican party is certainly due much criticism at this time considering the over emphasis of BS platforms like gay marriage and I say that as an active registered Republican, but surely you don't think that all Republicans are misguided? That there is something intrinsic to the Republican party that would make membership unreasonable?

No, not all -- if you're filthy rich and white, I think it actually does make a lot of sense to vote republican. But I believe that anyone else who does is voting against their better interests, most likely fooled by the cloak of false morality the party has shrouded itself in. In this sense, I think they're misguided.
 
I wish I could believe that...but I am concerned:

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060810_evo_rank.html

Faith does seem to be an impenetrable shield to logic and these pastor Ted super churches are growing...

{snip}
Geez. Get it out of your system. I'm here for you. :)

I think your biggest mistake is to assume that the Republicans are dominated by the religious right. They aren't. Like I said, freedom and Democracy are powerful things. The culture war was lost. People want their Will and Grace, L Word, The Sopranos, violent and sexual movies, etc. In short they want freedom. You just can't trump that. I read your post and it was interesting but nothing that would take me beyond concern. And I'm willing to be concerned. I think these @holes can screw up a good thing for awhile. Let's be vigilant. Let's speak out against them.

But trust me on this when I say, they sky ain't falling.
 
No, not all -- if you're filthy rich and white, I think it actually does make a lot of sense to vote republican. But I believe that anyone else who does is voting against their better interests, most likely fooled by the cloak of false morality the party has shrouded itself in. In this sense, I think they're misguided.
Hey, freedom of speech and opinions are good things. I'm glad you got to share. I think you are bigoted and ignorant but that is just my opinion. :)
 
I'd vote for another Ike, or heck, even another Nixon. Even Bush Sr. was far superior to his son. I hate the fact that if I mention that I loath GWB as worse that Harding and Buchanan put together many people automatically assume that I must be far to the left, just before they ask who Harding and Buchanan are.

Steven

uhhh-Harding's the crazy figure skating chick,Buchanan's the Economic Nationalist Wall Builder.Right?
 
I'd like to post what I think is one of the best posts I have ever read on JREF. It encapsulates what I believe JREF stands for and what skepticism and critical thinking are all about. I believe that for otherwise reasonable and skeptical people, aside from religion, politics is the biggest obstacle to reason and rational thought.

With that in mind let me share the post with you.

Not a terribly brilliant insight, but thought I would share anyway...

I write software for a living. It's an intellectually humbling field. I do it well - extremely few bugs reported in my career on delivered software. Of course, I've worked in life-critical areas: aviation and medical, so let's just say my testing regimen is a tad more rigorous than Microsoft's.

Nonetheless, my compiler/debugger tells me about 20 times a day that I got a piece of logic wrong. Formal logic is hard, and we tend to make a lot of mistakes. For the programmers among you, I program extremely defensively, using pre and post condition asserts() on all function parameters, write evaluation routines that check results in debug versions, etc. Yet I make so, so many mistakes.

There's a lesson here. Reasoning is hard, very hard. We need to test our assumptions rigorously, we have to proceed with the assumption that we are wrong, not right, and we have to test even after we are sure we are right. We just have to. Because the human brain and formal logic do not mix.

So I'm bewildered by subforums like politics. We know we can't test our assumptions, or that the test are ambiguous at best. I have a vague idea that I like parts of the Democratic platform - ecological conservation, suspicion about business affairs, tolerance of personal affairs, and parts of the Republican platform, but am I sure? No. Not enough to bust a blood vessel in argument, not enough to even argue. Raising questions is fun, and exploring ideas, but I have no illusions that I have any real understanding of the consequences of a set of policy decisions.

I don't mean to single out politics. The same applies to most forums. Nor do I mean to say "bad posters. Bad!" cause you can find me blithely making declarative statements that should have more uncertaintly in them. I guess I just want to point out that writing software is a great example of how hard logic and reasoning is, because it is so clear when our reasoning is wrong. It's not so clear if I reason incorrectly about, say, the math and economics of false positives in drug tests, although that field is pretty cut and dried (in that it is math, and we can check our work). We don't have a compiler/debugger to check our reasoning, and I assure you, you can read and go over your logic by hand many times, but still be wrong. You can have many eyes look at your logic, and still be wrong.

I think a lot of our social structures recognize this. The US federal government basically hamstrings itself purposefully to make sure we don't make changes too quickly. Yes, to avoid corruption and bullying by one side, but also because we make mistakes.

We function heuristically. Try something out, it doesn't work, and we try another thing. Of course, by then 10 other conditions have changed, only 6 of which we realize have an effect on our decisions. And so we muddle through, somehow. Expecting more than "muddling through" from our elected representatives seems naive to me.
(emphasis mine)
 
That being said, let's get back to mocking the stupidity of a large segment of Republicans that Randi clearly was targeting in his commentary.
 
I think you are bigoted and ignorant but that is just my opinion. :)

Wha....? :confused: I see the smiley, so I think you're joking, but if so I'm missing the funny. Where did this come from? I don't think I've said anything that would indicate either of these qualities.
 
Wha....? :confused: I see the smiley, so I think you're joking, but if so I'm missing the funny. Where did this come from? I don't think I've said anything that would indicate either of these qualities.
It's just my ego. Never mind, carry on.
 

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