SkepticWiki And The Bible

I agree with JJramsey here:

The whole Sodom and Gammorah story is a made-up story - never meant to be taken as history. It has a "just so" tale to explain all the salt pillars around the Dead Sea. (Lot's wife)

I remember reading somewhere that there is a 'burn mark' at some location around the Dead Sea. This bibical story explains that as the place where Gods wrath came down.

And

The story identifies their enemies forefathers as the incestual bastard children of Lot :-D

It's really pretty funny - but NEVER meant to be taken as history.
 
The whole Sodom and Gammorah story is a made-up story - never meant to be taken as history. It has a "just so" tale to explain all the salt pillars around the Dead Sea. (Lot's wife)

The fact that it doesn't function very well as an etiological myth raises a question in my mind as to whether it was really intended as one. How would the story of Lot's wife being turned into a single pillar of salt explain, even by its own terms, the presence of thousands of salt pillars in the area? It seems at least as likely that the story assumes the reader knows that such pillars would have been common; if Lot's family had been fleeing through a forest, the author might have had her changed into a tree.
 
The fact that it doesn't function very well as an etiological myth raises a question in my mind as to whether it was really intended as one.

I don't understand why you don't see this as an etiological myth - it is explaining a natural oddity in an obvious made-up story.

How would the story of Lot's wife being turned into a single pillar of salt explain, even by its own terms, the presence of thousands of salt pillars in the area?

It's a fun story explaining a salt pillar. I don't think it was meant to be analyzed. (There's more than one pillar - who are those people?)

...if Lot's family had been fleeing through a forest, the author might have had her changed into a tree.

Trees are not unusual. You have to go to Genesis for that story.
 
I don't understand why you don't see this as an etiological myth - it is explaining a natural oddity in an obvious made-up story.

I'm not ruling out that it was conceived as an etiological myth. I merely noted that the story doesn't seem particularly adapted to "to explain all the salt pillars around the Dead Sea", which I think weakens the thesis that the person(s) who set down the story saw it primarily in those terms.


It's a fun story explaining a salt pillar. I don't think it was meant to be analyzed. (There's more than one pillar - who are those people?)

Good question about all those other pillars; that's more or less what I was wondering. If the real intention of the author(s) had been to provide an etiological myth to explain the presence of salt columns, the narrative easily could have been composed in such a way as to account explicitly for why there are so many. That's one reason why I'm reluctant to exclude the possibility that the biblical account of Lot's wife originated in an earnest belief (based on what, I couldn't say) that the events actually occurred, and that the written account records that belief.


Trees are not unusual. You have to go to Genesis for that story.

That depends on the context, I suppose; perhaps to the south of the Dead Sea trees are unusual but salt columns are not.
 
Saying that it supports incest is a pretty bad distortion. The offspring of the incestuous unions were the purported ancestors of nations rival to Israel. The stories of incest were likely meant to mock Israel's rivals.

Which I suppose is why Genesis glosses over the necessity of Cain, Seth, etc. in those first generations marrying sisters or first cousins.
 
Not exactly. They fear they've seen the destruction of humanity, and are the only people remaining. So they make babies. Incest? Of course. Support? Hardly.
They were not the only people left on the planet. They just felt guilty that daddy only had them (girls), so incest is okay to give daddy some sons. I've read the story in context, in the bible. They only slept with him because he had no sons, and not because they needed more people on the planet.

They flee to a mountain, and moan that no sons will carry on their father's line, blah blah. I guess daughters aren't good enough to carry on the "line".

When daddy died, or no longer had to hide in the mountains, they could have had families of their own, but no, they sleep with daddy. I wonder how they lived as unwed mothers carrying their father's children? No mention of that, just that there is a supposed lineage, yee haw.

I looked it up on the net:
30 ¶ And Lot went up out of Zo'ar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zo'ar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

I don't get most of 31, and am not sure if this is the whole story between 30 and 32, seems like something is missing, but that is all I can find.

I really can't fathom the dumb girls figuring their dad is their only option, since they could easily go around and see other people. How did they live on the mountain and manage to eat? They couldn't have been that secluded?

Or is this justifying the incest? I still feel they mostly want to preserve daddy's line directy through him rather than finding their own men. I remember reading more of their conversation in the actual bible, and that included poor daddy having no sons to carry on the lineage, so they had to bear sons, and DID bear sons.
 
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The girls were Sodomites--offspring of Lot's deceased wife and Lot. If Lot took them to Israel they'd be second class women, probably only fit to be slaves and concubines. If Lot died of old age, they'd be reduced to abandoned possessions, as women had no social rights. They'd have to scramble to find a man to take them in and hope he wasn't totally abusive, and all the men they knew were dead.

And there's also the fact that Lot had just murdered all of their relatives, including their mother (unless you buy the whole pillar of salt miracle part).

However as the mother of Israelite boys they'd have minimal social standing. They could pass themselves off as Lot's wives and eventually his widows and might have some time to establish a place in the society and be remarried to a man they could trust.

None of this is very convincing, just as the idea that they seduced Lot is clearly undermined by the way Lot makes it clear that they will have no choice. Nonetheless, you can see it as a rational choice. The girls are in trouble, no one is on their side except Lot, and they will be in a better position if they do have sons by Lot.
 
Yep, all about having sons. I guess the writers of the bible didn't see fit to disgrace them by giving them daughters by this incest. Pshaw. Incest is fine if you get sons.
 
They were not the only people left on the planet. They just felt guilty that daddy only had them (girls), so incest is okay to give daddy some sons. I've read the story in context, in the bible. They only slept with him because he had no sons, and not because they needed more people on the planet.

Yes, I've read it too. In the original Hebrew.

They flee to a mountain, and moan that no sons will carry on their father's line, blah blah. I guess daughters aren't good enough to carry on the "line".

When daddy died, or no longer had to hide in the mountains, they could have had families of their own, but no, they sleep with daddy. I wonder how they lived as unwed mothers carrying their father's children? No mention of that, just that there is a supposed lineage, yee haw.

I looked it up on the net:


I don't get most of 31, and am not sure if this is the whole story between 30 and 32, seems like something is missing, but that is all I can find.

31 says exactly what I did in my earlier post: they thought there was no one else remaining but the three of them. They just fled an apocalypse, and concluded that the world was destroyed around them.

I really can't fathom the dumb girls figuring their dad is their only option, since they could easily go around and see other people. How did they live on the mountain and manage to eat? They couldn't have been that secluded?

I think the point is that they were so secluded; otherwise boinking their dad wouldn't have been relevant. And the text doesn't say how long they were there beyond the two nights necessary for the incest to happen.

Or is this justifying the incest? I still feel they mostly want to preserve daddy's line directy through him rather than finding their own men. I remember reading more of their conversation in the actual bible, and that included poor daddy having no sons to carry on the lineage, so they had to bear sons, and DID bear sons.

No idea where that understanding comes from; it's certainly not in the text itself.

But the ambivalence about the incest is intentional, I think. On the one hand it's supposed to repulse the audience; on the other hand, it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. That's consistent with the Israelites' hate-but-don't-attack relationship with Ammon and Moab that the Pentateuch later legislates.
 
Which I suppose is why Genesis glosses over the necessity of Cain, Seth, etc. in those first generations marrying sisters or first cousins.

That whole section of Genesis is problematic if we assume that Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel are the only people in the whole world. In Chapter 4, after Cain kills Abel, Jehovah curses him to be a fugitive and a vagabond. Cain whines that "every one that findeth me shall slay me." (That's a weird phrasing by the translators of the KJV -- surely Cain doesn't expect to be slain multiple times. But I digress.) So Jehovah puts a mark on Cain so that nobody will kill him.

Who exactly is Cain afraid of at this point? It would seem that there were only three other people in the world, and he just killed one of them. The other two are his parents, who a.) would recognize him even without Jehovah's mark on him; and b.) he wouldn't be likely to meet again as he's been sent away from them to wander the earth. The rationalization I've heard most often is that Cain expects Adam and Eve to have another son who'll in turn have a whole bunch of descendants, and further expects that he'll live long enough to eventually encounter one of his great-great-grandnephews or whatever, who'll kill him because he's a fugitive and a vagabond.

But wait. Cain goes out into the Land of Nod, and the next thing you know, he's got a wife. I think there are three possibilities here:

1.) Adam and Eve had an unnamed daughter who was also exiled to the Land of Nod, and she became Cain's wife;

2.) There's a huge time gap between Genesis 4:16 and Genesis 4:17, during which Adam and Eve have a bunch more sons and daughters, and grandsons and granddaughters and so on, and they go on to populate Nod (and other nearby Lands), and one of these distant cousins becomes Cain's wife;

3.) There were already other people living in Nod and the other lands, people unrelated to Adam and Eve, possibly created by other gods than Jehovah, and Cain married one of them.

Option 1 is the flimsiest explanation, especially since Cain builds a city in Genesis 4:17 and names it after his son Enoch. It's unlikely that three people would really constitute a city.

Option 2 is, I believe, preferred by most literalists and inerrantists today, although I could be mistaken on that.

Option 3 is the only one that makes any sense to me, but I suppose the theological implications make it unpopular with your hardcore Bibliolators.

And then we come to Genesis 6, where Jehovah gets worried that the "sons of God" are marrying "the daughters of men," and especially the very weird verse 4, where the sons of God and the daughters of men give birth to giants or Nephilim or "mighty men of old". Or something. But it also implies that there are people (or very people-like beings who are interfertile with people) who are distinct from Adam's descendants.
 
I think there are three possibilities here:

There may be one more possibility: The Cain/Abel story is a R E A L L Y old story outlining the conflicts between hunter/gatherers and city dwellers. And it's told from the hunter/gatherer point of view.

Genesis 4:2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Abel sacrifices animals - which God likes. Cain sacrifices fruits. God doesn't like that. The city (Cain) winds up being the death knell for the hunter/gatherer (Abel).

Cain's offspring go on to be 'fathers' of industry.

This old story may have gotten reshaped and mixed in with a separate story of the first humans - Adam and Eve.
 
There may be one more possibility: The Cain/Abel story is a R E A L L Y old story outlining the conflicts between hunter/gatherers and city dwellers. And it's told from the hunter/gatherer point of view.



Abel sacrifices animals - which God likes. Cain sacrifices fruits. God doesn't like that. The city (Cain) winds up being the death knell for the hunter/gatherer (Abel).

Cain's offspring go on to be 'fathers' of industry.

This old story may have gotten reshaped and mixed in with a separate story of the first humans - Adam and Eve.

The whole Adam and Eve story is rife with imagery of the end of Hunter/gatherer (mostly gatherer) culture and the beginning of agriculture. At the start, Adam and Eve achieve self-awareness and gain the knowledge of good and evil, and they suddenly realize that they've been running around naked and killing innocent small animals. They also get the idea that they are supposed to rule over the animals and that animals are for human benefit.

They are then promptly ejected from the garden, which corresponds nicely to one of the big advantages that humans have over the apes, namely that apes pretty much have to live in jungles where there is a steady supply of fresh vegetation the year round. Humans are forced to toil in order to raise enough food to live in their inhospitable new ecosystems.

They are also alone in the world, isolated from the less enterprising homo erectus who just don't get their new lifestyle. Luckily, they have very little competition in this new habitat, and thrive.

Humans are not very good natural hunters. We need to use tools, and cooperation, and we need to prepare and cook meat, all activities that require communication and intelligence. Cooperative hunting gave humans the ability to live in new areas. It also may have been the beginning of religion. All primitive religions revolve around cooperative hunting and killing (sacrificing) of meat.

Community, language, omnivorism, religion, ethics and tool use--all in one nice package!
 
There may be one more possibility: The Cain/Abel story is a R E A L L Y old story outlining the conflicts between hunter/gatherers and city dwellers. And it's told from the hunter/gatherer point of view.



Abel sacrifices animals - which God likes. Cain sacrifices fruits. God doesn't like that. The city (Cain) winds up being the death knell for the hunter/gatherer (Abel).

Cain's offspring go on to be 'fathers' of industry.

This old story may have gotten reshaped and mixed in with a separate story of the first humans - Adam and Eve.

That's a very reasonable and likely metatextual explanation. I was thinking more in terms of explanations within the narrative.
 
That's a very reasonable and likely metatextual explanation. I was thinking more in terms of explanations within the narrative.


Roger. I'm at a point where I can't even look at those stories as any form of 'reality'. To me it's like examining elf productivity in Santa's workshop.

But I like to think of the Cain/Abel story as a dirt-old oral tradition from the hunter's viewpoint! The hunters lost the fight, but their story stayed in the tale - which is very rare. Usually the winner dictates history.
 
That's a very reasonable and likely metatextual explanation. I was thinking more in terms of explanations within the narrative.

I don't think there is an explanation within the narrative. Cain fearing for his life and finding a wife look like, well, plot holes.
 
What about time lines...enough of incest, that's just bible porn to titillate celibate monks and give priests naughty ideas about queer/ I mean choir boys.

The bible explains one boob job with another viz a viz Enoch!

Born in 622 A.A. {After Adam's birth}, he manages to live for a pathetic 365 yrs and is wafted up to heaven, to be with god. Well god can do anything, I suppose.

So Enoch 'dies' before his G.G.G. Grandfather, but they've got this one covered with his ascension up to heaven! But what of Peleg, Nahor and Reu?

They all too died before: GGG Gr father; GGGG Gr father; GGGGG Gr father respectively.

These people are referred to as individuals and no amount of squirming should distract from that fact. If the bible is to be "taken in context" and "oh some parts are not [literal truth] but merely "stories" to be interpreted" then the whole falls to pieces because of the parts!

Griff...
 
And of course another is the covenant between god and Noah: namely the Rainbow!

Now clearly understood to be caused by refraction {sometimes doubled} of light at a water/air boundary and fully described by Snell's Law, we have yet another example of ignorance in the bible...unless of course the covenant applies to every piece of bevelled glass in my front door!

Griff...
 

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