Skeptics and Santa Claus

[MRC_Hans]

My kids have all believed in Santa, the youngest two still do. However, when they ask me if he's real I tell them the truth. They don't believe me, because so many other people tell them he does exist and 'don't listen to your killjoy father'. When the eldest two realised he didn't exist they thanked me for being the only person who didn't lie to them. Not that they're damaged by it, but they did appreciate that I hadn't lied.

That is exactly my point: There are times when it may be better to lie to children (some facts of the world are simply too stark for children), but I have lied as little as possible to my children. Santa Claus is not a necessary lie. You can have fun with the adventure, but don't call it a truth.

Hans

 

[SusanB-M1]

I just don't understand why people have a problem with the word "teach." Regardless of what you personally may or may not have done, do you deny that a lot of parents go beyond noncommittal responses and tell their children that Santa Claus actually exists? For the most part kids don't just come up with the idea on their own; they believe it because their parents tell them to, just like many other early learning experiences.

No, of course I do not deny it. It wasn't what I myself did, and I do not doubt that parents are doing what they think is best, but don't think - in my personal opinion - that makes it right.

AvalonXQ #69
I think that's exactly right. If I'd had access to scepticism when my two were young, I'd have done similarly.

 

[Foolmewunz]

The poll options didn't have my selection (Yes, I know it's anti-skeptical, but I let my kid do the Santa thing because I don't wear my skepticism around like a baby grand piano on my back.)

I let him watch Barney. Yes, Barney. There, I've said it. It's out. And it's allowed me to tell him over and over how cool it is to use your imagination. I don't plan to have any difficulty relating that imagination drill to the Santa myth when the time comes. I really don't need to be deconstructing the Christmas Legend with him - he hasn't even finished his treatise on The Spartacist Revolt of 1919, and that's far less complicated!

He's going to notice sooner or later that his Korean pal (David) doesn't quite follow the same mythology he follows(I follow) or that his Jewish friend Sascha doesn't either. He's Thai/American - his mom's family had never done a Christmas tree in their lives before this year. And how'd you like to explain to a three year old that we have three separate New Year's celebrations, huh?

Let 'em have the fantasy. Spiderman shoots webs out of his hands. He loves it. The Transformers have him thinking every yellow car he sees is Bumble Bee and can turn into a robot. Tinker Bell is hot (he calls her "Bell" and has a crush on her) and can fly. I don't know if he gets it yet that all of this is make believe, but I'm pretty sure he does.

It seems that everyone on the internet knows a guy who knows a guy whose sister or brother was traumatized by learning the truth about Santa. They're all in asylums now, of course, having become axe murderers at the age of 11.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Really? I think it's a game no matter who asks it or why.

You've turned quite cynical if you really think asking questions for clarification of your point is inherently game-playing.

People in general. Okay?

OK. Thanks.

I would say that people in general do make many exceptions to critical thinking, whether they are supposed to or not. Indeed for many people critical thinking is the exception. I'm not sure that going after Santa Claus is the most effective way of trying to effect change in that regard, but, of course, YMMV.

 

[Psi Baba]

It seems that everyone on the internet knows a guy who knows a guy whose sister or brother was traumatized by learning the truth about Santa. They're all in asylums now, of course, having become axe murderers at the age of 11.

True Fact!

Letting kids believe in Santa Clause for a few years is not an exception to critical thinking. No one is saying that the parents actually believe in Santa Claus. This isn't like Bigfooters taking their young'ns out to look for Bigfoot. When children inquire as to whether he is real, then give them an honest answer at that time. If they're starting to wonder about the reality of it, then they're ready to know, and if they're inquisitive enough to ask, then they are likely ready to handle the truth.

I can understand that someone who didn't have Santa Claus as a child themselves can't really relate to the experience on a personal level and therefore has no motivation to share it with their own children. That's fine. If it's an unfamiliar concept to you, then don't bother--it might just come off as contrived anyway, and the kids might not buy into it. There is plenty of secular fun to be had at Christmas without Santa Claus, to be sure. Santa isn't necessary, but at the same time, it isn't harmful.

However, If you want your child to truly think critically about things like God and other forms of woo, the Santa myth is a great teaching tool. They all figure it out on their own. I've yet to hear of an exception (ie an otherwise sane adult who still believes that Santa Claus is real). Some people just need to get the sticks out of their asses, take a big swig of heavily spiked eggnog, and chill. Waes Hael!

 

[desertgal]

You missed a pretty critical bit of your story out: what did you say when they asked you?

No, I didn't miss it. As I said, our reply was always: "What do you think?" We tried to encourage them to look at the subject logically and reach their own conclusion.

Since I haven't woken up to find any of the eight kids standing over me with an icepick, screaming "You lied to me about Santa!", then I guess we succeeded in our encouragement. None of them ever seemed traumatized over the subject. I doubt that they ever gave it that much importance.

 

[bruto]

Somehow this thread has devolved a bit from what the original poll was about. The question is whether you yourself would teach your kids about Santa Claus. I have always presumed that they would get a goodly dose of Santa from the ambient culture. Of course if you live in a treehouse in the Amazon or a walled compound in Kalispell Montana, the issue is different, but most of us live in the society that surrounds us. I (and my then wife) did not teach my kids about Santa, and as far as I recall they figured things out pretty quickly. I did not see any evidence that their capacity for fantasy was thus stunted either. They were fanciful, imaginative kids, and still are as adults.

This is not necessarily about "going after Santa," or warding off some horrible trauma because bad beliefs will make you a mass murderer. Let's get some perspective. I just don't think it's wise to teach kids beliefs you don't actually believe, and I don't think it's kind or respectful to them to lie if they ask you for the truth. You don't have to chase them around with it or bludgeon them with it, but in a world that's confusing and hard to sort out, I think some kids at least would prefer to have someone they can trust not to give them the runaround. I didn't teach my kids about the immaculate conception or the angel Moroni either, but not teaching things you don't believe is not the same as going on an idol-smashing spree or a cultural crusade.

edit to add: I am kind of surprised that in a forum so densely populated by atheists who are constantly having to articulate the distinction between not believing something and believing something else, so many don't seem to get it.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Well, I think it really depends on how you parse the meaning of "teach them". I'm not weaving the Santa myth and hammering the message home, but I'm not arguing against it if he wants to believe it.

If the OP meant do you actively "educate" them as to the existence of Santa, then I withdraw my vote. I read it more as "do you play along with"....

 

[slingblade]

You've turned quite cynical if you really think asking questions for clarification of your point is inherently game-playing.

If that's actually what I thought, you might have a point.

But see, I never said "questions." I said "this question." And I meant this specific kind of question: "Who's this 'we,' Kemosabe?"

The thread title offers up a "we." If I'm not supposed to understand there is a "we" inherent in the topic, then why's it in the title? And if I say "we" and mean "we skeptics," there's going to be a wag or a few who will chime in with how I'm using a True Scotsman fallacy, or making assumptions about skeptics and skepticism.

If one values critical thought, then one would be part of the amorphous "we" to whom I had alluded. Is that necessarily all people? I could only wish! But when I say things like, "I had no idea we were supposed to make exceptions to critical thinking" then the specific "we" is right there in the sentence: the "we" who value critical thought, who use it, who advocate its use.

I would say that people in general do make many exceptions to critical thinking, whether they are supposed to or not. Indeed for many people critical thinking is the exception.

You know what? Sometimes just bringing up a topic for discussion can highlight for people the fact that they might just be trying to make an exception, and that maybe they should apply some critical thought to the topic instead.

Isn't this exactly how critical thinking is meant to be applied?

I'm not sure that going after Santa Claus is the most effective way of trying to effect change in that regard, but, of course, YMMV.

Yeah, there's no appeal to emotion or nostalgia going on in the thread, of course.

I'm not "going after Santa." And that very statement is what makes this a Sacred Cow.

How, please, is it "going after Santa" to hold the opinion that it's better for the critical thinking process not to deceive young thinkers with untruths and fictions in general?

See, I'm not examining the concept of Santa in isolation. Santa is just part of the vast collection of fictions that are usually presented as real beings or real things to children. He's part of the network that forms the idea in the developing mind that magic is real, and magic works, but only special people can access it. Now, since magic isn't real, and since magic doesn't work, and since no one is that "special person" who can access the magic, it's simply not good for advancing critical thought to pretend all this is true.

It's also not necessary. I know this, because I can come up with examples of other things we don't even try to present as fact to children, and yet which they manage to enjoy nonetheless. I used Harry Potter as one example, and if anyone noticed the point, I've missed them saying so.

Santa doesn't have to be presented as a real but magical human being in order for kids to enjoy the customs and traditions, any more than Harry Potter must be presented as a real but magical boy to enjoy reading the books.

Santa can be presented as the fiction he is, and the traditions associated with this fiction can still be enjoyed by children and parents alike.

And yes, it does behoove the average critical thinker/skeptic to understand that differing countries or different parts of a country hold differing notions of the same basic tradition. So Santa isn't portrayed in Australia as a familiarly omniscient being who watches you and judges your behavior, and who will reward or punish you accordingly?

In the U.S., Santa is essentially God. In fact, I've seen more than one American on these boards make the point that God is just Santa-for-Grownups. Because both figures do essentially the same things for the same reasons.

Knowing that, does it make my view a bit more clear, and highlight what might not be so good about the Santa concept from a skeptical, critically thought position? If Santa is not portrayed in your country as a being essentially the same as a god, then maybe your country doesn't have the same problem with perception that mine has.

I am not advocating the Death of Santa. Keep your Santa traditions; hell, for all I care, convince your children he's a real man who really can defy physics and travel around the entire world in a single night on a magical flying sleigh, and who dispenses toys to each and every child who deserves them.

There was, I presume, a reason for even asking a question about Santa and skepticism?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Santa is essentially God.

<snip>

What a slur on his character!

'Santa' is infinitely more compassionate, generous and reliable than the miserable, homophobic, sexist and vindictive bastard called 'God'.

 

[ZirconBlue]

The thread title offers up a "we." If I'm not supposed to understand there is a "we" inherent in the topic, then why's it in the title?

Well, I initially assumed that "we" referred to either JREF forum members or skeptics in general. But, I decided to ask for clarification rather than going with an assumption.

But when I say things like, "I had no idea we were supposed to make exceptions to critical thinking" then the specific "we" is right there in the sentence: the "we" who value critical thought, who use it, who advocate its use.

You could have saved yourself several posts and whole lot of words if you'd just said that the first time.

Yeah, there's no appeal to emotion or nostalgia going on in the thread, of course.

I'm not "going after Santa." And that very statement is what makes this a Sacred Cow.

By "going after Santa" I was not referring to the literal incarnation of Santa Claus.

 

[slingblade]

Well, I initially assumed that "we" referred to either JREF forum members or skeptics in general. But, I decided to ask for clarification rather than going with an assumption.


You could have saved yourself several posts and whole lot of words if you'd just said that the first time.

Sorry I didn't do it the best way, or the preferred way, or most efficient way.

I'm just a rebel?

By "going after Santa" I was not referring to the literal incarnation of Santa Claus.

...what literal incarnation? Apologies, I'm somehow missing this.

 

[JamesDillon]

Well, I think it really depends on how you parse the meaning of "teach them". I'm not weaving the Santa myth and hammering the message home, but I'm not arguing against it if he wants to believe it.

If the OP meant do you actively "educate" them as to the existence of Santa, then I withdraw my vote. I read it more as "do you play along with"....

I meant do you personally take affirmative steps to lead your child to believe in the literal existence of Santa Claus (hence the "teach" that some people are criticizing, but I chose the word carefully). It's going to be the case, at least in the United States (the setting with which I'm most familiar) that kids are going to hear about Santa through cultural osmosis regardless of what their parents do. There's a complicated discussion to be had about how to respond to that, and I can see a lot more room for skeptical disagreement on that question than I can on the question I actually posed. Personally my view of the latter, like my view of pretty much any other question about which my hypothetical kids might ever have, is that I would be honest with them about my belief and try to explain why I believe what I do (e.g., no one has ever seen Santa, he seems to be able to do things that no one else can do, there seem to be a lot of logical inconsistencies in the idea of Santa, etc.) but certainly not be dogmatic or insulting about it if they choose to believe something else. That, I think, is how to make Santa a teachable moment in critical thinking-- of course kids are going to figure out the truth sooner or later, and I'd rather be in the position of having tried to show them the right way to think about these issues than to have to explain why I thought it was consistent with my own skepticism to have lied to them about it.

 

[slingblade]

That, I think, is how to make Santa a teachable moment in critical thinking-- of course kids are going to figure out the truth sooner or later, and I'd rather be in the position of having tried to show them the right way to think about these issues than to have to explain why I thought it was consistent with my own skepticism to have lied to them about it.

The very point, succinctly made; well done.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Sorry I didn't do it the best way, or the preferred way, or most efficient way.

I'm just a rebel?

I'd heard that about you.

...what literal incarnation? Apologies, I'm somehow missing this.

I wasn't referring you literally "going after Santa", as if he were an actual person, but instead was just trying to distill "taking on the established myths and traditions surrounding Santa Claus" into something less wordy.

 

[slingblade]

I'd heard that about you.

I'm almost certain it's true.

I wasn't referring you literally "going after Santa", as if he were an actual person, but instead was just trying to distill "taking on the established myths and traditions surrounding Santa Claus" into something less wordy.

Meh, I wallow in teh werds. I shall style myself as an Eccentric Artiste and all will be well.


(I am fooling only myself. )

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

However, If you want your child to truly think critically about things like God and other forms of woo, the Santa myth is a great teaching tool. They all figure it out on their own. I've yet to hear of an exception (ie an otherwise sane adult who still believes that Santa Claus is real). Some people just need to get the sticks out of their asses, take a big swig of heavily spiked eggnog, and chill. Waes Hael!

That's an excellent point.

Do you think it's the five different blokes playing Santa they see each year or the numerous incompatible films and stories about him that tips kids off that Santa is a myth?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/14/santa.christmas.kids/index.html

(CNN) -- The government's air defense system tracks Santa's progress on Christmas Eve. The United States Postal Service even accepts letters to the North Pole.

With that kind of evidence, how could Santa not be real?

But at some point in childhood, kids start questioning the very existence of Santa.

By 8 or 9, most children know the jig is up, development experts said. But the crafty kids feign belief in Santa hoping their enthusiasm will be rewarded in the form of Christmas presents.
"Kids are smart," said Charles Smith, a Kansas State University expert in child development. "They realize he's not real even before parents think they understand that.

"In preschool or early grade school, kids understand all these Santas at the mall can't be Santa. The reality of Santa becomes apparent to them."
Santa Claus is for parents as much as for kids. A 2008 study published in Psychological Reports assessed the emotions of 600 children lined up to meet Santa Claus at the mall. Of the kids, 80 percent looked indifferent while 87 percent of their guardians appeared to be happy.

"It's a fun ritual," said Carole Slotterback, author of "The Psychology of Santa." "I think they get caught up in it being fun, and parents have a hard time letting go."

The realization for kids comes gradually, rather than through one defining moment, said Slotterback, who conducted a survey of college students about their family memories of Santa Claus.

Only one person reported a traumatic experience, after her dad told her Santa Claus had a heart attack and died. Slotterback does not recommend that approach.

...

 

[AvalonXQ]

Only one person reported a traumatic experience, after her dad told her Santa Claus had a heart attack and died. Slotterback does not recommend that approach.

... I laughed out loud!

 

[caniswalensis]

On the darker, more traumatic side of the Santa tradition, here is a 100% true story...

One shopping center in our town used to really do up the Santa visit in a big way. Every year for as far back as I can remember, they would make a big deal out of his official arrival to meet the children of our town. The always had some special conveyance for him. Somtimes a firetruck, but then they started having him land in the parking lot by helicoptor. The kids went wild for it.

Who can blame them? I am sure it was exciting, and the closest thing to a real flying sled you could imagine.

It was a very popular event, until the last year that they used a helicoptor. that was the year the helicoptor hit some power lines & crashed, killing both the pilot and the unfortunate St. Nick in front of hundreds of children.

It is hard to describe the reaction of our town with just a few words in a forum. To say people were very upset by the whole incident does not do it justice. The whole town mouned. Many of the children reported required counseling after witnessing the crash. It even made national news.

This story does not really touch on the topic at hand, but the thing about that dad telling his daughter Santa had a heart attack reminded me of it, and I felt like telling it.

Can you imagine it? For kids watching, just before christmas time, it was like watching a space shuttle disaster or something. No wonder they needed help afterward.

 

[phildonnia]

As father of a 4-year old, I can say that even young children are capable of tentatively "believing" something for the sake of a fun imaginary narrative, while still knowing that it is imaginary.

We've left the existence of Santa Claus an open question. Should my son ever raise the issue, I think I shall only play the Socratic midwife to his own opinions. I did recently ask him whether he thought Santa Claus is real, and he mentioned that there is a real Santa at [his friend's] house, but that the one at the store is just dressed up as Santa.

I think I shall treat the question of God similarly.

We sing Christmas songs around this time of year, and I sometimes worry that I am being inconsistent, and that he might become confused. I thought about it, and I realized that at other times of the year, I sing and play "Layla" on my guitar, without being concerned that he will think I am desperately in love with another man's wife.