Skepticism and The Normal

There is no STANDARD for the use of 'objective' other than the dictionairy. The only thing that could be considered 'standard use' or 'public use' would be the use of objectivitey in Journalism, which may even be it's source. And it is also ambiguous in Journalism.

Okay, first, it may be helpful to point out that this statement has at least one (and possibly several) logical contradiction in it. You say that there is no standard use for 'objective' other than the dictionary, but then you state that the only standard that could be considered would be 'objective' as it is used in journalism. The origin for the standard use of 'objective' cannot come only from the dictionary, but also only from journalism. This is impossible, a logical contradiction. You're assigning the unique origin of the standard use for 'objectivity' to two sources. Now, if you were to say that the origins of the standard uses for 'objectivity' were not unique, and could originate both from the dictionary and from journalism, then this statement would at least be logically consistent in that regard. Then, however, you would have to explain how the dictionary can be an origin of 'standard usage,' rather than what most people consider it to be, merely a source that describes what is taken to be the standard usage of words. You would also have to substantiate your idea that 'objectivity' as used in journalism is, in fact, different from what is in common use, and that its use in journalism is ambiguous.

In any case, here is the definition for the word objective. And here is the definition of the word subjective. These are in the dictionary because the dictionary collects words that are in standard use by the population speaking the language that is covered by the dictionary, and then describes what those words are taken to mean by the population speaking that language. These standard definitions, as you see in dictionaries, are based on how the words are used in the real world. This is one reason why redefining words is such a bad idea, because if you do you then fall out of line with the standard definition (as described by the dictionary and used by everybody else) and then nobody can understand what the heck you're talking about.

I get what people are arguing for. They are only telling me that's how they define it and use it. And they or you or anyone can use it that way, I dont care if you like using that word that way or not, I'm just pointing out that it produces something illogical conceptually, it's not fully considered, produces contradictions and has no consistancy.
Actually, we're not telling you that this is how we define terms. We're telling you that this is how these terms are defined by the vast majority of people who use the terms, and therefore these definitions are the correct definitions of the words as used in the English language. There will always be deviations, i.e. people who use the words incorrectly, but those deviations are generally very quickly corrected since most words have very solid definitions that are already in common use, and using any other definition will make it difficult or impossible to communicate intelligibly with people. People who use nonstandard (incorrect) definitions for words will normally have a very strong motivation to learn and use the correct definitions so that they can communicate effectively with people.

As far as the contradictions and inconsistency that you mention, we're telling you that there are no contradictions and no inconsistency in the correct definitions of the terms "objective" and "subjective," which are the definitions that we've been using. We've demonstrated this. "Objective" and "subjective" have nothing to do with "true" and "false," but instead describe, well, you can read the definitions for yourself (see above).

And the argument is almost ancedotal. the definition of objective in OS 012 does not contradict the dictionairy, or produce something falsely objective in it's place. OS 012's internal logic is hardly resting on it, it's another strawman attack from the reactors here. Every so often you think you 'found' something that 'disproves' OS 012, yet it often seems no harmless than a spelling error or historical slip up.
First of all, is "OS 012" the set of rules that you posted earlier in response to my post regarding the game that these good folks are playing? If so, then there is no part of those rules that holds up under scrutiny, logical or otherwise. I've demonstrated this. If you have specific problems with any of my points, then you'll have to argue those points in order to support your claim, because at this juncture it seems like the entire rule set is completely bunk. If you wish to attribute the problems with the rules to minor mistakes, then I submit that, before you publish a list of rules or logical sequence of ideas, that you proof read and double check the list so that it is capable of holding up under scrutiny. However, personally, I do not believe that any number of grammatical and spelling errors, missed phrases, or other minor mistakes in writing could possibly account for the major logical errors in the rules you posted.

If that set of rules you posted is not "OS 012", then why did you post those rules in the first place? What are they? I'm dreadfully curious about that.

Since OS 012 uses a 'coupling' of objective/subjective, and wishes that coupling to have a solid logical and mathematical relationship as well as a intuitive one, it's definitions must be consistant to reality, mutually observable to reality, and open to absorb more refined arguments which make even clearer the distinctions.
Taking 'coupling' to have the standard meaning, you're talking about "OS 012" being both objective and subjective at the same time. Well, this is impossible, by any standard definition of the words "objective" and "subjective." Check the definitions. Here they are, just FYI: objective subjective. Also, if any part of "OS 012" is subjective, then that part is, by definition, in some way disconnected from reality (either by merely lacking in reality, or by having personal bias or personal perception behind it, etc.) So, if any part of "OS 012" is subjective, then it is not consistent with reality, and therefore, by your statement above, the definition is inherently flawed.

And the argument is almost ancedotal. the definition of objective in OS 012 does not contradict the dictionairy, or produce something falsely objective in it's place. OS 012's internal logic is hardly resting on it, it's another strawman attack from the reactors here. Every so often you think you 'found' something that 'disproves' OS 012, yet it often seems no harmless than a spelling error or historical slip up.
Sorry, quoting this twice, but I think this needs to be said. I'm pretty sure that most people here don't care about "OS 012." If we were to ignore it, it would go away. We're not "reactors," and we're not trying to find things to disprove "OS 012." On the contrary, we (most of us, anyway) see problems with "OS 012," and we feel compelled to point out the problems so that you have constructive feedback to either refine the idea, or so that you know to abandon it in favor of other ideas that might work better. If I'm wrong about this, then somebody call me on it, but that's certainly been my motivation.

Wayne
 
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Well, it was earlier noted when I brought up the 1968 revised international rules (encompassing the new variations for play by mail and international trunk line calls) that we were keeping to the British standard regulations, but it is a good point. The informal referee may take a stab at a non-binding judgment call.

we could let it stand for the time being...

Basilio
 
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This is just for people discussing objective and subjective using similar meaning to me: I have been looking up some philosophy websites, and some of the mentioned that statements like "I like jam" are considered subjective, whereas we have been talking about them as objective expressions of a subjective idea (jam is nice). Anyone want to dive in about that? I can provide links if people want me to.

Maybe because the word "like" can have a meaning that is dependent upon the person making the statement (i.e. subjective)? Of course, in that case the statement "He likes jam" would also be subjective. . .

ETA: Have any other examples or links?
 
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I think I can see where that's coming from, and I'd be interested to know more. Sure, provide links.

Well my starting point was to find out more to use to show bubba why his usage of objective is inappropriate to the context he is using it in. My main idea was that he wants to use the journalism version of objective - which basically means taking a neutral point of view. But he is applying this definition to "ideas" - saying that an idea can be objective by his definition. But only people can have a neutral point of view - ideas cannot. People can be objective about ideas (using bubbas sense), but ideas cannot be objective in this sense. therefore if we are talking about the ideas, the other common meaning of objective (as used in philosophy) is really the best definition and the journalism one is inappropriate to the context.

So anyway I started googling to look more into the philosophical sense of objective and found that as I thought, it specifically excludes the journalism sense, but while I was doing so I found this (http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/o.htm) - and I think I came across a couple of similar instances:

objective / subjective
Distinction between propositions or judgments about the way things are and those about how people think or feel about them. The truth of objective claims is presumed to be entirely independent of the merely personal concerns reflected in subjective expressions, even though is difficult to draw the distinction precisely. Thus, for example: "Spinach is green" is objective, while "I like spinach" is subjective. "Seventy-three percent of people in Houston don't like spinach," however, seems to be an objective claim about certain subjects.

The legitimacy of this distinction is open to serious question, since it is unclear whether (and how) any knowing subject can achieve genuine objectivity. Nevertheless, because objective truth is supposed to carry undeniable persuasive force, exaggerated claims of objectivity have often been used as tools of intellectual and social oppression.

Since then I have been reading and getting myself confused about (since I am a complete novice at philosophy) the nuances of the two words and what they imply. The latest I have been reading is this:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/subjective_objective.html

I haven't got my head around it enough to discuss it yet, but you might want to read it too.
 
So anyway I started googling to look more into the philosophical sense of objective and found that as I thought, it specifically excludes the journalism sense, but while I was doing so I found this (http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/o.htm) - and I think I came across a couple of similar instances:

Okay, that makes sense. Given the idea of the thinking subject being the focus, the idea that "I like x" as a subjective statement makes sense. Concepts like "I like something" or "I hate something" are meaningless outside of the framework of the thinker, and therefore can't be objective. Makes sense, and seems to fit with the definitions I've seen so far.
 
What contradictions? Show us a lack of consistency?
I think he means something like this:
Mojo said:
No you can't. What "objective falseness" can you derive from, for example, a subjective statement that you introduced earlier: "Miles Davis is the BEST trumpet player of all time"?
Because the statement does not contain mutual viewability in it's truth value, rather, it's truth value is dependent upon my interpretation of music.

simple, mojo, real simple. Saying that Miles Davis is the best trumpet player in the world is objectivly false


Anyway, back to more important matters. Under the 1997 Basingstoke codicil, I can safely counter Tooting Broadway by moving to the DLR:

Mudchute
 
Since then I have been reading and getting myself confused about (since I am a complete novice at philosophy) the nuances of the two words and what they imply. The latest I have been reading is this:

http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/subjective_objective.html

I haven't got my head around it enough to discuss it yet, but you might want to read it too.

Absolutely fascinating article :D Hate the tone :rolleyes:, but, eh, the subject matter is spot on (except maybe for the point about aesthetic expertise, but that wasn't very well defined in the article, so...) I think we've been pretty closely hovering around the definitions that she uses for metaphysical and epistemological objectivity and subjectivity, although there have been some differences. We've been talking mostly about language, so epistemological objectivity and subjectivity have been the focus of our discussions.

As far as "I like jam" is concerned. . . Well, the liking of jam is certainly a subjective experience, and whether "I like jam" is true or not is primarily dependent upon subjective experience, so that may be why it is considered to be a subjective statement.

Wayne
 
I think he means something like this:


Anyway, back to more important matters. Under the 1997 Basingstoke codicil, I can safely counter Tooting Broadway by moving to the DLR:

Mudchute

Very clever, but I think the Wodehouse perigrination will shunt you to a siding:

Ickenham

and with that, Im off to home. With the present strategy, I think we may have a Mornington Crescent in 3!

Basilio
 
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The statement "Angelina Jolie is a beautiful woman" is an OBJECTIVE statement.

Saying that Miles Davis is the best trumpet player in the world is objectivly false
(ie subjective using your definition)

Can you please explain to me how you come to opposite conclusions for these two statements? Why is an assessment of beauty objective while an assessment of musical skill is subjective? Both are based on a range of factors which can be measured objectively, but the people using these factors weight them in a different way and come to different conclusions as to whether the statements are true. What is different about them that makes one objective and one subjective?
 
Very clever, but I think the Wodehouse perigrination will shunt you to a siding:

Ickenham

and with that, Im off to home. With the present strategy, I think we may have a Mornington Crescent in 3!

Basilio

You forget, I see, that the Revised Kathmandu ruling was upheld last month in the Northern England All-Nations Tourney... Ickenham is no longer the opening for the Beckingham-Trottney strategy, Basilio. At best, you can make MC in seven, and that's ONLY if flim-flam doesn't use the proper defense (I'll refrain from naming it - that's only fair) OR if some current observer doesn't invoke Observer's Folly and place a Black Riley on the board.

Still, the Revised Kathmandu does contain a nice, aggressive, and fairly dangerous gambit that DOES start at Ickenham - if you're man enough to try it.
 
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Very clever, but I think the Wodehouse perigrination will shunt you to a siding:

Ickenham

and with that, Im off to home. With the present strategy, I think we may have a Mornington Crescent in 3!

Basilio

Personally I think 3 is a little optimistic, especially with the late lunch due to the tea ladies' day of action march necessitating a significant diversion.

Pudding Mill Lane
 
Personally I think 3 is a little optimistic, especially with the late lunch due to the tea ladies' day of action march necessitating a significant diversion.

Pudding Mill Lane
Oh, foul! Foul! No one called Full Contact! pv+, that was brutal!!

Can I get a ruling here?
 
I think the move is technically legal, via a transverse punt (introduced after that disputed match in the third round of the 1954 Bradford tournament, remember).

But it leaves him wide open to

Chalfont and Latimer
 
I think the move is technically legal, via a transverse punt (introduced after that disputed match in the third round of the 1954 Bradford tournament, remember).

But it leaves him wide open to

Chalfont and Latimer

Finally! I have been waiting for someone to make this move.

In light of the Reverse Defense rule, allow me to make my move (and yes, I do understand that means I give up my Knip bonus, and also places me in Regression for the beginning of the next round, meaning I start play last, and without the North Quarter bonus):

Mornington Crescent.
 
Finally! I have been waiting for someone to make this move.

In light of the Reverse Defense rule, allow me to make my move (and yes, I do understand that means I give up my Knip bonus, and also places me in Regression for the beginning of the next round, meaning I start play last, and without the North Quarter bonus):

Mornington Crescent.

You guys are amateurs! You obviously didn't take note of section 2a of the 3rd Scunthorpe Convention, otherwise you'd have realised that you left yourself open to the oldest ploy in the book, namely:

St John's Wood.
 
You guys are amateurs! You obviously didn't take note of section 2a of the 3rd Scunthorpe Convention, otherwise you'd have realised that you left yourself open to the oldest ploy in the book, namely:

St John's Wood.

I assume that's an opening move. That shouldn't cause any problems for Taffer in this round as he's only in regression (it would be different, of course, if he was in full regression). I'll play safe this time, with

Vauxhall

BTW, well done, Taffer. I really hadn't spotted that one!
 

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