Skepticism and The Normal

It has also been observed billions of times that metal falls to the ground if you throw it up in the air. But then someone got the idea to give the metal a certain form. And now we have pieces of metal, some weighing hundreds of tons, floating high up in the air everywhere (they're called airplanes). ;)

Care to explain how a C-5 violates the law of gravity?
 
jimbob and sinnikal, thanks for your replies to my question. Not that I really care, but the way Rome goes on and on about my beliefs, I just wondered for a moment if everyone else had their panties in a wad too.

Apparently, just him.
 
wonderful. Nice to see you finally back full swing in the discussion zaay. even though pages back you said:
Anyway, I'll lurk, maybe reply occasionally, but you've made it obvious you have no intention of honestly replying to my rebuttals or observations, so I shall consider this a victory of sorts and take my bows.

I now submit Zaay as further evidence of the tit for tat method, combined with the knowledge that all ideas are in conflict, which influences our behavior to confront the conflict of idea.

*rats* i forget though how bloody tedious his posts are to sift through and tit for tat with, hehe.
 
wonderful. Nice to see you finally back full swing in the discussion zaay. even though pages back you said:

No, I'm in full swing at addressing the bullsquat you excreted via keyboard.

Your OS012 discussion is as boring as ever.

I now submit Zaay as further evidence of the tit for tat method, combined with the knowledge that all ideas are in conflict, which influences our behavior to confront the conflict of idea.

*rats* i forget though how bloody tedious his posts are to sift through and tit for tat with, hehe.

Uh-huh.

Whatever.
 
No she's not. We covered Ennis some time ago. She claims that she was ONCE skeptical about homeopathy, but as it turns out, she's fairly gullible and easily mislead.

Old ground. She's been dismissed already. Can't believe you wouldn't know this!

why would I know that & I why would I care? I'm not here arguing for homeopathy, I am here arguing for the third value. The link I provided revealed 13 'anomalies' discovered in recent science. If you know about two being mistaken, there are still 11 on the list.

And when you say "she's been dismissed already" that holds little wieght to me. First, says a bunch of fundamentalist disbelievers, who also have dismissed steorn too I bet. You're acting as if this holds some relative value to the discussion.

I was one of the top chemistry students of my school, and was in the top 10 of the South Florida Chem-A-Thon. My team was the number one team in 1989 or 1990 - I forget which. Though my 'academic scientific background' is minimal, it does actually exist. Point of fact - I do, in fact, conduct experiments on occasion. Mostly for my own gratification, and mostly consisting of at-home experiments to show the kids one scientific principle or another.

High school chemistry awards do not give you the same qualifications of years of rigourous study to get a phd in the matter, so therefore, when you claim arguments scientifically, as in 'this has already been dismissed!" that doesnt hold much value for me, becuase your only arguing your belief system. You yourself did not repeat Ennis experiments, nor did you provide a link to those that did.

Nor is this relevant to the discussion of the third value. The link was merely an ancedotal to relate areas of science requering further research. I hardly find you astute enough to de-value science that suggests something further than your fundamentalist disbelief.

As for 'conducting full moon rituals and pagan mass', why do you keep getting this idea stuck in your head?

Just a funny image, that's why. tryin' to imagine what you look like, ya know.

I'm a Wiccan priest, not a cult leader.

Would not your organization be considered a cult in the classic sense of the word? Is not paganism and wicca reacting many of the mystery cults of Europe?

Yes, on occasion I take part in full moon rituals. I have always loved nights of the full moon. They fire the imagination.


Arr! Verily and Amen, and with pirates glee do we lust and howl and the silver disc!

Pagan mass? No. Followers? Don't have any. I didn't say I was a temple head or a church leader - just a priest.

I see then

The nice thing about being a Wiccan Priest is, you don't really have to 'hold mass' or 'have followers'. Lots of solo practicioners have earned their priesthood as well.

Oh, I get it, a mail order priest.


Actually I've expressed my personal situation here numerous times. I enjoy my irrational, personal, fun beliefs on my own time in my own situation; but I recognize that, when dealing with issues of science, reason, and logic, those beliefs must be set aside as, at best, frivolous, and, at worse, meaningless.

I agree with this, yet those are still your beliefs, and this argument is about the third value, and the relationship of THREE values, i ncluding the personal, in dialectic.

I have provided mathematical and logical reasoning for three values. Three values is a formalized logic, so any argument you have against it is itself illogical and irrational, just like your 'beliefs'.

You, however, have provided nothing regarding any illogical inconsistancy to three values. You claim that three values are meaningless, and then you argue for two values, your 2x2 logic system, which later you tell us doesnt describe TRUTH (nature) either.


I know more about it than you seem to. Cold Fusion was an old subject here what... a year or two ago?

You're way behind the power curve, Rome. Ennis, Homeopathy, Cold Fusion - done and done. Old news.

I think you place a value of intellectual academia here that may not really exist. In case you havent figured it out yet, very very few fundamentalist disbelievers are scientific visionairies, so if you are holding this forum at the standard of the highest rational value to validate your sense of empiricism, then you just have another set of irrational beliefs in addition to your wiccan practice.


Actually, it really doesn't. And referring to me as such is not an ad-hom, no... but HOW you are choosing to refer to me about it is. It has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion.

It DOES have bearing on this discussion, it has profound bearing. It is your belief system, it is that which you hold most personally true. This is the place where we organize our arguments and truths. This is what you think is ILLOGICAL and IRRATIONAL, but that is just because you are sticking it into DUALISM and BIVALENCY, which you are arguing for on this thread.

We are relating three truth values not only logically, but philosophically in this discussion, and you are withholding your philosophy while you are pretending to argue for another.

And that has been exposed, now, let's have a discussion about what YOU BELIEVE to be true, k?


Just an aside - and this is NOT a comment about you, Rome - but I hear this all the time about blacks and gays. Usually it's from someone you KNOW is bigoted - who demonstrates, in very slight ways, their prejudice - but if ever you confront them, they reply in just this form. "I have no problem with gays. I have a gay friend, you know!"

Well, I do have black and gay friends too. I live in Los Angeles, we have about every group one can imagine. We even have AA meetings for Pagans.

I dont have a problem with your belief system, and I dont even think it's irrational like you do, rather, I think that your belief system is composed of 0, 1, and 2 just as much as any other.
 
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All I did was suggest that, if the person in question was interested in the WICCAN religion, they could learn a lot at Witchschool about Wicca.

You especially related the school to someone who was thought to have profound psychic experiences, and you wished to guide him to discover more about that. that's fine, I dont have a problem with that, what I have a problem with is your fake argument.

First off, you have made more than one highly dismissive comment towards me, trying to link somehow the arguments of the third value with mysticism, homeopathy, woo, etc etc etc. You remarks held the tone of a fundamentalist disbeliever.

Yet many of your fellow 'wiccans' hold the most glorious examples of what would be called 'woo' by most likely every single member of this forum.

So you dismiss your 'brethren' with the impatience of a disbeliever, yet your 'school' of wicca holds the philosophy that

The Correllian Tradition is dedicated to the advancement of the Pagan people. We believe strongly in the need for increased communication and co-operation between Pagans everywhere, from all Traditions.

and

Correllianism does put an unusually strong emphasis on the philosophical aspects of Wicca, and on the spirituality and inner mysteries of the Wiccan religion, but liturgically our beliefs do not especially differ from those of other Wiccan Traditions. Rather it is our attitudes toward the Pagan community and its future that tend to set us apart.

To me, this is evidence of your inner conflict, and you project your own judgements you most likely have of yourself to others so you can harmonize your conflict with the opposites.

Actually, that's all there is to a spell. Positive thinking 101.

Some people call it 'prayer'.

Wonderful. Other people call it 'The Secret DVD' and there is a thread bashing those people right now on this forum. Shouldnt you go defend your belief structure to them rationally?

You know, I seem to recall, early in my travels here, mentioning that I had no problem with homeopathy - AS A FAITH HEALING SYSTEM. The moment they tried to make it 'medicine' is the moment I was against it.

okay, that's fine with me

If someone starts espousing the medical principles of healing using red jasper or rutilated quartz, I'll be arguing against them as well.

so you agree then that healing does take place, however the cause is the human mind (magick).

That's still would be considered 'woo' by your standards, again, a contradiction


Been out of the closet a VERY long time.

In fact, this forum has seem a LOT of my woo before.

well I want you to come out of the closet with me then (erf, that sounds weird;-) I want you to argue your 'woo' on the line and honestly address the conflict you have with OS 012.

The conflict you have with OS 012 is mystical in nature, you just dont have the cajones to admit that, so you create the false logic argument which is just completly absurd.

BF
 
I don't argue my beliefs because they are illogical, irrational, and irrelevant.

Well metalogically, you ARE arguing your beliefs, that's what I'm saying. If your metalogic is irrational, then your arguments are going to be irrational.

And what is metalogic?

OS 012. Ternary Logic.

Mystery, True, False

0, 1, and 2.

On the tree of life, KETER, CHOCKMAH, and BINAH.
In Taoism, TAO, YIN, YANG

where ya been?

It's even in your own systems of magic. sheesh.

come to the argument like a real pagan, eh?


BF
 
A thought just occured to me...This is pretty damned funny, coming from an artist who has been doing the exact same thing.

yes, but I admit that, and admit that I dont know enough to argue certain scientific princaples. However, I dont assume one set of scientists is always right, especially when there is a conflict of idea coming from another set, and you do. You latch on to the fundamentalism in science, and not the wonder and awe,mystery in science.

Rather, I can fully analyze rationaly the distinctions in science and philosophy because I am using the third value, and my arguments for OS 012, are also supported IN science.
 
One of the reasons I harp on this with Zaay, is because what Zaay actually believes is true is closer to a third value system.

Wrong again. It's closer to a many, many valued system.

Polytheism, yeah, I get that. And those are the FALSE IDEAS metalogiclly, each and every single one of them, all FALSE ideas, all having ONE source, all combining in MYSTERY.

It's in your own belief system, three values. I cant wait to you get it, you are going to want to write "OS 012 and the Occult, A mail order guide for Pagans";-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

For most Wiccans, the Lord and Lady are seen as complementary polarities: male and female, force and form, [edit:TRUE AND FALSE] comprehending all in their union [EDIT: MYSTERY]; the tension and interplay between them is the basis of all creation [EDIT: all gods, i.e. FALSE IDEAS coming from the ONE source, their UNION (mystery). .

Metalogic is found in all things, mystical or logical.
 
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I've never said less than that I hold faith and reason together, and even allow them to contradict each other.

Thank you for admitting your inner contradictions that I have been pointing out for like 10 pages now.

they dont contradict each other at the metalogical level, at the metalogical level, they support each other.

You are coming on to this forum to project and work out your inner conflicts with your two sets of realities, and you are admitadly manipulating people. You do a good job of it, I must say. Getting the badscience crowd to defend a practicioner of the magical arts is quite a feat! I wish I could see Fan Gao's face! But they dont have much choice either, you were amongst their last hope for a rational argument against OS 012.

Funny how that works. Good thing flammable flower has finally come to the table.


BF
 
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No, you havent been paying attention. The conclusion of Zero was that, in the author's own words, the Greeks banned zero.
But that wasn't the claim that you said the book supported. You said that it provided evidence to back up your assertion that Aristotle, later revised to Pythagoras, murdered the man who tried to introduce zero to maths. It did no such thing. It didn't even provide good evidence that Pythagoras murdered anyone, or had anyone killed, and it stated that Hippasus's "crime" was that he revealed the existence of irrational numbers.

You had mistaken a literary device used to introduce a subject for a factual statement. If you had bothered reading the whole chapter, you would have found that the author of the book stated that nobody really knows the truth of what happened:
The legends are very hazy and contain contradictory stories about the betrayal and ultimate fate of Hippasus. Mathematicians to this day tell of the hapless man who revealed the secret of the irrational to the world. Some say the Pythagoreans tossed him overboard, drowning him, a just punishment for ruining a beautiful theory with harsh facts. Ancient sources talk about his perishing at sea for his impiety, or alternatively, say that the brotherhood banished him, and constructed a tomb for him, expelling him from the world of human beings.
It doesn't matter for the purposes for which the author used it whether or not the story about Pythagoras having Hippasus thrown overboard is literally true: it is a device meant to draw the reader in by making them wonder what Hippasus could have done to produce such an extreme reaction; to pique their curiosity.

Kind of ironic that when you stumble upon a statement the literal truth of which is irrelevant to the pupose for which it is used, you mistake it for a definitive statement of the truth, and when you find something genuinely unknown, you plump for a "yes" or "no" interpretation of it. Why are you so afraid of the unknown?
 
Could I just say that it has been a real pleasure reading over these last few pages. I've watched Bubb tie himself in knots with logic (or his absence of it), resort to ad homs in suggesting that zaay's beliefs have a bearing on the truth of zaay's statements, and, funniest of all, pulled a trick for which he has regularly upbraided other people i.e., assuming he knows what zaay really believes rather than dealing with zaay's statements (and in the process completing conflating zaay with zaay's ideas). You're arguing with the zaay in your head again ol' Bubb!

Zaay, I take my hat off to you for raising, yet again, the problem of objective mystery. It was very nicely put that statements about the real world have to be true or false. You'll never get Bubb to admit it though, it clashes too greatly with the idea that OS012 is somehow objectively useful.

Could I just advance two possibilities that account for Bubb's behaviour:

(i) He is a straightforward troll who has, rather cleverly, come up with something that, in a flattering light, with a following wind looks like something that might be worth discussing. He's then used this, apparently irrefutible idea, as a springboard for his trolling.

(ii) He does actually believe in the third value so strongly that he is simply unable to accommodate any school of thought that opposes it. Perhaps he doesn't actually believe in it any more but to admit so would just cause too much cognitive dissonance.

z wrote
No, you're just flustered because we're right, and in some dark, cobweb-filled part of your mind, even you know it.
Exactly! Is anyone else picking up hints of paranoid psychosis from Bubb? In addition to all the grandiose delusions of course...

I can't say which of these is true yet but Bubb has made it abundantly clear that in his head OS012 cannot be refuted since to any argument it is irrational and it will simply assimilate any method of arguing that does defeat it. Hardly a basis for a rational discussion.

I think I've also identified another of Bubb's little linguistic peccadilloes: "contradiction" appears to mean "something that Bubblefish doesn't agree with" rather than an actual logical or linguistic inconsistency.

OS 012 is founded on a 'law'. That law is "All ideas can either be true, or false, or mystery".
Any evidence for that "law" yet Bubb? Hell, I'd even settle for coherent definitions of "true", "false" and "mystery"... oh, and what do you mean by "idea"?
 
So Bubb, you think that my definition of "objective" creates contradictions. Care to point them out? Here's one of your attempts:

Well, the statement ‘the world is run by repetelians’ or any of David Icke’s ‘theories’ would be objective statements in your definition. His claims are testable, so therefore the statement ‘the world is run by reptelians’ is an objective statement in your definition.
Yes, it is. What's the contradiction? Bear in mind that the fact that it does not fit in with your definition of "objective" does not constitute a contradiction.

If a statement can be ‘objectivly false’, then it can also be ‘objectivly unknown’

She will come, she will not come. That’s is an objective unknown.
No it's not. It is simply a misstatement (as Z would say). You have simply put an objective statement and it's negation next to each other like this: "X, not X". One is true, one is false, together they cover all eventualities.

Quote:
You haven't satisfactorily rebutted people's concerns with it.
Such as?
Any of them.

First off, that’s [lack of understanding of OS012 is] more your problem, and understandable. I can’t present something until it’s complete, and the efficacy in evidence is not available, yet. So I don’t even request that you believe in it. I do however state that our discussion is sort of an evidence to the principles.
No, my not understanding OS012 is not really my problem for me since there's no evidence that it has any value. You certainly can present it since you have presented it: it has a public webpage and we are discussing one of its fundamental principles (the third value) on a public forum. If our shared subjective experience is a reliable indicator of objective truth, then I'd say that all this discussion has provided evidence for is that you are a tedious, ignorant fool.

There is no rational argument against OS 012. To refute OS 012 is to prove it correct
Quote:

Again, the reek of troll.
Or, an objective statement which can be challenged rationally. Do you challenge it rationally? No, you ‘react’ to the words again.
Apologies, I thought the rational challenge was obvious from my mention of the logical inconsistency. Here it is in clearer form: "refute" is the antonym of "prove" (OED: refute = 2. To prove (a person) to be in error, to confute; 3. To disprove, overthrow by argument, prove to be false: a. a statement, opinion, etc.) therefore you cannot simultaneously refute and prove a thing with the same argument.
 
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But energy is magical, isn't it? We can't really explain it, just watch it being there, being the cause of all the activity in the world. We can describe and predict how it behaves, when it interacts with natural laws (which we also can describe only, but not really explain either), but what it IS we don't really know. And energy is infinite, unlimited, from an absolute perspective. Science may not be able to prove that, but it can be proven logically, from what we know.

So I don't really see why the presence of energy in one context (e.g. the Steorn device) would be more improbably than in another (the one we already know and "can explain"). In the end they're both equally magical and unexplainable, in that the presence of energy itself is unexplainable in whatever context.

A natural law is a property of the universe that has been very consistently examined and very consistently replicated through experimentation. Something is not considered a law unless its existence is extremely well established.

Nothing "interacts" with natural laws, things obey them, as far as all existing data has shown. Natural laws describe numerous interactions, but the laws themselves are not monolithic things not subject to any alteration. Instead, they represent the best rational understanding of the natural world that all of humanity currently has to offer.

Those laws can be, and are, revised, but that revision requires well conducted research. If a law is shown to be incomplete, vast amounts of work need to be done to understand how and why the law is incomplete, and then remedy that problem.

Energy, in fact, is remarkably non-magical. Because we do not know its source (which may be a matter of some dispute, there are several theories regarding this, and we may actually understand it better than I am aware) does not imply that we do not understand it. In fact, we understand it quite well.

The assertion that the "presence of energy" in the device Steorn claims to have built is just as likely as anything else is ludicrous. In order for Steorn's device to work, they must have found a situation in which the current laws of physics are inapplicable. This is a situation that has never been found before, and plenty of people have tried. The various proposed "explanations" I've seen bandied around here are non-starters: Fission, fusion, magnetism... all those things are very well observed, and their operation well documented.

I think one of the main problems here is that there are many people who don't understand what the concept of a natural law actually implies, or how well we actually do understand some of the concepts involved here.

The other big problem is the kind of equivocation behind the reasoning that if we don't understand where energy came from, therefore we can't say we understand the forces involved in a possible perpetual motion device.

This is not to say that scientists are unwilling to accept a perpetual motion device. Such a thing would be invaluable for humanity, at least if it were able to produce useful energy rather than just continue to move as a closed system. However, as I said before, our understanding of the concepts involved is considerable, and therefore the amount of proof required for most scientists (or those with a decent science education) to simply drop everything and embrace the claims of perpetual motion is correspondingly higher.

Your analogy of metal falling but planes flying doesn't really work. Again, there are very well understood physical laws at work here, and no breaking of them or contradiction is involved. It's also more complex than the plane simply being "dropped". If you simply eliminated all forward thrust from an airplane in flight, what do you think would happen to it?
 
Entirely off topic and ad hom, but does anyone else find it extremely amusing that someone with such amazing knowledge of evolutionary strategies still hasn't worked out how to spell "evolutionary"?
 
Let's be fair cuddles, Bubb has never claimed to be of great intelligence; he's described himself as a person of average intelligence.

Why does that remind me of a school report that was reported to go along the lines of: "He takes joy in setting himself abnormally low standards, which he then, consistently, fails to achieve."

Whatever the problems with Bubb's linguistic skills I don't think that they're the primary reason for nobody accepting or understanding his claims.

In any case, what's far more amusing is the misspelling in his signature. "A rational arguement" indeed!
 
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Entirely off topic and ad hom, but does anyone else find it extremely amusing that someone with such amazing knowledge of evolutionary strategies still hasn't worked out how to spell "evolutionary"?

Or such knowledge of game theory etc and still hasn't worked out how to spell (prisoner's) dilemma?
 
I'm particularly impressed by his use of the expression 'layman's understanding'. He seems to use it when he has a faulty understanding, but to be honest he does use words in a unique way.

Perhaps he uses them in a layman's way!
 
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