Skepticism and The Normal

tit for tat between two honest rational people will produce agreement. tit for tat between one honest person and one irrational person will produce a predictable number of outcomes. 1.) the irrational person will leave the discussion once the rational argument is isolated and dependent upon contradiction from irrational party 2.) The irrational person will adopt the rational strategy for discussion, and continue to argue rationally until there is agreement.


Note that what is left is the rational argument, regardless of who leaves or stays in the discussion.

BF
 
Look, stop trying to use terminology that you are clearly not famliar with.

I'm not trying to use set theory to back up my argument. Me using it is ancedotal.

You can start but defending that MYSTERY is an element of the set JAMES_RANDI and that MYSTERY is an element of DECEPTION.

that makes sense, thanks

And, since you apparently didn't catch it, JonnyFive's OP using Randi and set notation was, I believe, a joke.

If it's a joke, it makes logical sense as well



BF
 
I'm not trying to use set theory to back up my argument. Me using it is ancedotal.
Then don't even try using the terminology. Oh, and
Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
Pronunciation: "a-nik-'dO-t&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : [SIZE=-1]ANECDOTIC [/SIZE]2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <an anecdotal painting> <anecdotal details>
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/anecdotal


that makes sense, thanks
Then start defending.
 
That, in and of itself, is sufficient to demonstrate that "Tit For Tat" isn't a very good strategy. If it worked so well with Jonny, why didn't it work with the badscience crowd?

huh? It's still working on the badscience crowd, at least they are FINALLY engaging me with more critical arguments. It's working on them perfectly, and if they stay in the discussion, and I as well, you will see something similar beginning to happen.

The tit for tat transformed their calls of me being a troll, etc etc etc, into actually thinking about what I am discussiing. Even flim flam, who truly is annoyed with me now, stated that he 'thought about all of this all afternoon'.

Human behavior effects the truth values of ideas, the truth values of ideas effect human behavior. there are only three limits to truth values in ideas, 0, 1, and 2.

There is no conflict between 0, 1, and 2, there is only conflict between 1 and what is believed to be 1.

It's beautiful, can't wait to you can see what I can see.


BF
 
Then don't even try using the terminology. Oh, and
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/anecdotal

note the third prescription

Then start defending.

James Randi percieves unknown relative to him just as much as anyone else. He encountered an unknown relative to his point of view in term of Steorn's claim. Here is where we can say mystery is apart of James randi's perception.

He didnt keep the mystery a mystery, he claimed it was false. (unknown=false) He operated his behavior (writing his blog entry) around the truth value that steorn is a hoax/fraud, and gave what he interpreted as evidence. Evidence simply supports what can be called 'true'. james randi's evidence for Steorns 'fraud' is not inconsistant with commerical administration, and Steorn allows open investigations into such claims as fraud, which james randi could have investigated as well as anyone of us.

Therefore, James Randi was either deluding himself with his unknown=false metalogic, or he is decieving all of you for the sake of maintaining his position as leader of the critical thinking and skeptical movement.

When the third value is not considered, it produces either delusion or deception in interpretation and/or application. Thus, the intersection between James Randi and Mystery is Deception/Delusion.


Happy?


BF
 
Any comments to this post?

Jimbob, sorry, i will get to your post later in the evening, as it addresses a higher topic than this thread, which is, strategizing global conflict resolution.

See you then

BF
 
note the third prescription
The third definition states "3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <an anecdotal painting> <anecdotal details>" This does not describe your misuse of terminology to try to support your claim.

James Randi percieves unknown relative to him just as much as anyone else. He encountered an unknown relative to his point of view in term of Steorn's claim. Here is where we can say mystery is apart of James randi's perception.
1) You have not clearly defined "mystery"
2) You are trying to change your use of "mystery" from that of saying that it is an element of James Randi, to saying that James Randi is observing it.

He didnt keep the mystery a mystery,
Correct. He evaluated the probability of the claims being true and; given the laws of thermodynamics, Steorn's actions in this matter, his past experience, etc; he determined that the probability of the claims being true to be so small as to give provisional agreement to the conclusion that the claims are false.

he claimed it was false. (unknown=false)
He stated that Steorn's claims were false, not that the unknown is false. Once again, as you have done so many times in this thread, you are either intentionally or unintentionally committing equivocation. You can not just mutate the uses and definitions of words just to suit your argument.

He operated his behavior (writing his blog entry) around the truth value that steorn is a hoax/fraud, and gave what he interpreted as evidence. Evidence simply supports what can be called 'true'.
No. Evidence is evidence. Evidence is used to evaluate claims and determine if the claims are true or not. He presented his claim and the evidence he used in coming to the conclusion that Steorn is a fraud. What you have consistently failed to do in this thread is to show that either Randi's evidence, or logical reasoning, are flawed.

james randi's evidence for Steorns 'fraud' is not inconsistant with commerical administration, and Steorn allows open investigations into such claims as fraud, which james randi could have investigated as well as anyone of us.
Steorn's copyrights and trademarks on any such processes would not be imperiled by their following of standard scientific methodology and allowing open, unbiased peer-review. Additionally, that the claim is in violation with well established laws of physics is sound enough ground to state that Steorn's claims is de facto false until they prove otherwise. The onus is on the claimant that would change the status quo.

Therefore, James Randi was either deluding himself with his unknown=false metalogic, or he is decieving all of you for the sake of maintaining his position as leader of the critical thinking and skeptical movement.
False choice fallacy. He could be:
1) fooling himself
2) intentionally fooling us
3) misapplying his understanding of physics
4) committing a logical fallacy
5) he's right
6) other

That his target audience is filled with critical thinkers and skeptics puts #2 into strong doubt. #1, #3, and #4 are all put at serious risk, again because of the target audience, but this time because of the knowledge set of said audience. #5 has strong backing by all but a small, vocal minority (yourself included).

When the third value is not considered, it produces either delusion or deception in interpretation and/or application.
You still haven't put forth a convincing argument of this assertion within this thread.

Thus, the intersection between James Randi and Mystery is Deception/Delusion.


Happy?


BF
No, your still trying to use set terminology and failing miserably.
 
Are there no limits to the bullshite that you're willing to speak?

hmmm, I wonder which member of badscience.net this may be.....

Anyway, timanfaya, I'm not going to tit for tat back like I normally would, I am just going to show your metalogic operating and request you participate in this discussion critically.

So, your metalogic is stating that my statements are false. If they are false, they must be shown to have a contradiction with established facts and or research. Can you provide a rational testimony to your claim that what i write is false?

Looking forward,

BF
 
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Soooo tired right now, was going to get to a few responses, but i will wait til tommorow. Until then, I thought some of you may enjoy this paper 'The Online Disinhibition Effect', by Prof John Suler, Ph.D. It highlights a few things I discussed regarding internet dialogue, tit for tat, the internet isolating how we respond to ideas, our natural false ideas we have regarding the anonyminity of another. etc etc. It formalizes actually much of what I have been talking about. This whole environment summarized here is the environment of online dialectic. the online life of all of us affords us a wonderful new way to express and communicate, and OS 012 outlines the natural dialectical process occuring in such environment

This is not a link to a page. It will open up as a PDF. Found on Boingboing.net

http://www.samblackman.org/Articles/Suler.pdf

enjoy
 
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Aah, an elementary mistake Mojo. Of course there is no 'tit-for-tat' employed in Evolutionary Theory. However when it comes to Evolutionairy Theory we are opening up a whole different kettle of worms (or can of fish, bubblefish perhaps?).;)
 
Just out of curiosity, Rome, what would have to happen in your online discussions, for you to consider tit for tat was *not* an effective strategy?
 
Aah, an elementary mistake Mojo. Of course there is no 'tit-for-tat' employed in Evolutionary Theory. However when it comes to Evolutionairy Theory we are opening up a whole different kettle of worms (or can of fish, bubblefish perhaps?).;)
Oh. I thought he was just putting on a silly French accent (something to do with Lamarck, perhaps ;) ).
 
Just out of curiosity, Rome, what would have to happen in your online discussions, for you to consider tit for tat was *not* an effective strategy?
A direct message from god to that effect followed by simultaneous explosion of every web-connected device on earth?

Bubb, you can keep writing true = true, false = false and unknown = unknown for as long as you like, it's not really an argument given that also fish = fish. Yes these are three possible truth values in a trivalent logic system. However this appears to bear no relationship to how use them and, as many people have pointed out before, trivalent logic is not original.

As far as I can work out what you're thinking at all, the confusion seems to arise (yet again) from your bafflingly inconsistent and non-standard use of language. Firstly the word "objectively". My best guess so far is that OS012 is a metalogical system that doesn't even try to ascribe truth values to statements but instead serves only to classify statements into three groups:

i) What you bizarrely call "objectively true", actually contains all objective statements to which we are currently capable of ascribing a truth value i.e., objective true statements "flimflam is a man", and objective false statements "George W. Bush is made of meringue"

ii) What you yet more bizarrely call "objectively false" actually contains statements that are *not objective* including subjective statements e.g., "Betty is foxier than Wilma"

iii) What you most bizarrely of all call "objectively mysterious" actually contains objective statements whose truth value is not yet know (but that still have a truth value) e.g., "tomorrow bubblefish will explode", and other unusual potentially unresolvable (paradoxical, metalinguistic) statements such as "this sentence is false"


These are not "truth value" they are perhaps "levels of confirmability" or "levels of reference".

Is that reasonably close?


Secondly the words "true" and "false" seem to mean something different to you than to everyone else. To the best of my knowledge pretty much everyone uses them to refer to statements and uses them, basically, to mean "correct" and "incorrect". "flimflam is a man" is true, "flimflam is a woman" is false. You appear to tack them onto an adjective and use them to mean "having the property of" and "not having the property of". So "objectively true" for you actually seems to mean "objective" and "objectively false" seems to mean "not objective".

Edit: here's a lovely example

Objectivly false statements are not objective statements, they are false objective statements

I'd join my voice to Arkan's in beseeching to use language that is (i) standard, (ii) consistent and, (iii) within your linguistic capacity.
 
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And, since you apparently didn't catch it, JonnyFive's OP using Randi and set notation was, I believe, a joke.

Wow, I really made of mess of this with what was, I believe, an extremely corny joke. :)

If you're going to be using set theory, you should use it properly.

Seriously.

the intersection between james randi and deception is mystery. That is so well put and elegant. I have begun to use that phrasing now 'intersection' to describe various things, thank you Jonny.


But you could put deception/delusion into the same category, no?

The intersection between james randi and mystery is deception/delusion.

No, it was a joke. If you really want to know:

latex.php


In this case, the elements "James Randi" and "Mystery" are separate and unique values. Because they are the only elements in their respective sets, and are not the same, they cannot have an intersection. If I defined the two as sets with the element "Mystery" the statement would in fact be correct, as pointed out above. However, I didn't, and as written most (read: "all") people familiar with set notation would simply assume they're values. I put "Mystery" in itallics because it's mysterious, not because it is inteded to be a variable or anything.

To whit:

latex.php


Is perhaps clearer. However:

latex.php


Sorry to have to do this to death, but you really shouldn't be reading into my jokes so much, it's not healthy.
 
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And that is exactly your problem. You adopt 'intersection' and begin using it "to describe various things". Intersection, especially as displayed in JonnyFive's latex code example, has very specific meanings and applications in dealing with Sets. Your stating, "the intersection between james randi and deception is mystery," is exactly equivalent to saying, "For all elements of James Randi and all elements of Deception, the elements that they both share in common are Mystery." Which, frankly, makes no damned sense whatsoever.

It's even worse how I meant it, which would read:

"For a set containing the value "James Randi" and a set containing the value "Mystery", the elements they have in common is "Deception""

Which is literally mathematical nonsense.

To be fair, I did itallicize "Mystery", which implies it's a variable, and bold-face "Deception" which implies it's a set, but that still makes no sense:

"For a set containing the value "James Randi" and a set containing the undefined variable "Mystery" the elements they have in common are contained within the undefined set "Deception""

I guess the set "Deception" could have only the value "James Randi" in it, which would also be the value of the variable "Mystery", but that's reading into the joke waaaaay too much. :)
 
Just out of curiosity, Rome, what would have to happen in your online discussions, for you to consider tit for tat was *not* an effective strategy?
I'm reminded of the saying, When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Wow, I really made of mess of this with what was, I believe, an extremely corny joke. :)

Seriously.

No, it was a joke. If you really want to know:

http://www.randi.org/latexrender/la...s Randi}\} \cap \{\textit{Mystery}\} = \{\}$$

In this case, the elements "James Randi" and "Mystery" are separate and unique values. Because they are the only elements in their respective sets, and are not the same, they cannot have an intersection. If I defined the two as sets with the element "Mystery" the statement would in fact be correct, as pointed out above. However, I didn't, and as written most (read: "all") people familiar with set notation would simply assume they're values. I put "Mystery" in itallics because it's mysterious, not because it is inteded to be a variable or anything.

To whit:

http://www.randi.org/latexrender/latex.php?$$\{ 1 \} \cap \{ 2 \} = \{\}$$

Is perhaps clearer. However:

http://www.randi.org/latexrender/la...p \{1, \textit{Mystery}, 5, 12 \} = \{ 1 \}$$

Sorry to have to do this to death, but you really shouldn't be reading into my jokes so much, it's not healthy.
Dangit, I have got to learn LaTeX.
 

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