Skepticism and The Normal

In talking about whether we can be absolutely sure that the reality we percieve is real, I was just reminded of a paper that i read about in the New Scientist which concludes that:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]A technologically mature “posthuman” civilization would have enormous computing power. Based on this empirical fact, the simulation argument shows that at least one of the following propositions is true: (1) The fraction of human-level civilizations that reach a posthuman stage is very close to zero; (2) The fraction of posthuman civilizations that are interested in running ancestor-simulations is very close to zero; (3) The fraction of all people with our kind of experiences that are living in a simulation is very close to one.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]If (1) is true, then we will almost certainly go extinct before reaching posthumanity. If (2) is true, then there must be a strong convergence among the courses of advanced civilizations so that virtually none contains any relatively wealthy individuals who desire to run ancestor-simulations and are free to do so. If (3) is true, then we almost certainly live in a simulation. In the dark forest of our current ignorance, it seems sensible to apportion one’s credence roughly evenly between (1), (2), and (3).[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Unless we are now living in a simulation, our descendants will almost certainly never run an ancestor-simulation.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
 
There are variations of the certainty of objective reality. Our existence occurs in objective reality. Objective Reality is our certainty, which is founded upon our individual sense of certainty, existence and being. You would never know the truth to the cognito if it were not for objective reality.

These are the two truth values in OS 012. Our being is the two value, objective reality is the one value.
Completely the wrong way round, I can be absolutely sure about my existence, but I am sure about nothing with regard to objective reality.

Clarity can be understood as the ability to accuratly percieve that which one does not know juxtaposed against that which we do. Clarity is a state of honesty. To invoke the third value is to invoke honesty. Clarity is not a perception about knowledge, it is an understanding of knowledge.
So OS012 basically says "if you don't know, you should admit that you don't know". I suggested ages ago that this was your problem with Randi and Steorn. It's hardly novel, nor does it require a dialectic.


I think we are saying the same thing two different ways. Socrates makes him aware of the 'neccesary truths' of what he already knows, but has not considered, and therefore is not aware of, and is therefore unknown.
Notice the clash in that sentence bubb between "what he already knows" and "... is therefore unknown". What you are describing is implicit knowledge, not the unknown.

The ternary process that I am reffering to is happening naturally in the human mind and brain.
Statements I know are true
Statements I know are false
Statements whose truth value I don't know

Any indication of how to translate that into something objective and useful?

Our brain circuitry is ternary in nature.
Reference please. I'm genuinely interested regardless of this discussion.


Our internal information exchange is ternary in nature. Formalized systems of ternary logic are relevant to their respect applications, which include propositional logic, language translation, and electronics. We cannot confuse a formalized ternary logic with a ternary process whose foundation may be purely biological, rather, we have to formalize that process into a language so we can understand it.
I'm confused Bubb, if we do it naturally, do we need to formalise it? Ternary logic may be useful in certain applications, although in electronics I understand it is not widely used. Understanding biological ternary systems would be interesting academically but you've provided no evidence that it is useful nor valid to formalise it onto a macroscopic scale for dialectic. The onus is still on you Bubb, not only if you want OS012 to be accepted (which you deny) but if you actually want real informed critique to work with. At present it appears like you're very much hear to preach and all you want to do is inflate your ego by having people ask you about stuff which you claim to know about.
 
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One note cannot set a tempo since without a pre-determined rhythm you cannot say whether it is a crotchet, a minim, a quaver or whatever
Yes you can, musicians do it all the time. If I hit one single note on the piano, even accidently, a musician can immediatly answer that back with a complimentary note and continue a rythym. A drummer can hear one simple down beat and jump right in. A beat is just a beat. a quarter note is a beat. rythyms are made of 'beats'
OK then, Bubblefish: here's one for you to try:

The first note of the tune is a D natural. Can you identify the tune and tell me what tempo it is being played at?
 
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Our brain circuitry is ternary in nature.

Reference please. I'm genuinely interested regardless of this discussion.

I think his reference for this is that some guy he knows who supposedly knows about neuroscience told him so.

More likely scenario?

Bubba: I think our brain circuitry is ternary in nature
Neuroscience guy: Yeh, Rome, I'm sure you are right, now stop bugging me.

Notice he keeps coming out with this nugget as if it is established scientific fact, when in fact he doesn't even know what "brain circuitry being ternary in nature" means, what it would look like, what it would imply, simply because he knows nothing about brain circuitry. He heard something once that sounds like it boosts the status of his theory, so he automatically treats it as true and uses it is "evidence" that he is right. It doesn't occur to him to learn more about it and find out if it is really true, and if true what implications it might have on his theory, because he doesn't care about truth, just about bostering his own pet theory. Thats why he has a huge breadth of knowledge (he knows the names of all sorts of theories even though he can't spell them), but no depth of knowledge at all (he doesn't really understand any of them). Because to dig deeper would be to let in the possibility that he might be wrong and that none of his "evidence" supports his theory in any way at all.
 
Notice he keeps coming out with this nugget as if it is established scientific fact, when in fact he doesn't even know what "brain circuitry being ternary in nature" means, what it would look like, what it would imply, simply because he knows nothing about brain circuitry. He heard something once that sounds like it boosts the status of his theory, so he automatically treats it as true and uses it is "evidence" that he is right. It doesn't occur to him to learn more about it and find out if it is really true, and if true what implications it might have on his theory, because he doesn't care about truth, just about bostering his own pet theory. Thats why he has a huge breadth of knowledge (he knows the names of all sorts of theories even though he can't spell them), but no depth of knowledge at all (he doesn't really understand any of them). Because to dig deeper would be to let in the possibility that he might be wrong and that none of his "evidence" supports his theory in any way at all.

Yup, "Rome-tinted spectacles" as someone put it earlier. It's very hard not to get derailed (more than we already) are onto the question of whether he actually believes all this, whether he will ever realise that it's not actually supported by everything that has ever happened and what the possible psychological ramifications will be for our Californian friend.
 
Oh, be fair. Tell him that the note is also exactly half a second long.
That shouldn't be necessary. According to him he can treat the note as a single beat and pick up the tempo and time signature from that.

My betting is that he can't even tell what key it's in.
 
If you feel I didnt contradict him, then repeat his argument as you understood it and then I will show you the contradictions or inconsistancies.
Quote:
His argument holds together just fine: "mystery" is a knowledge value, not a truth value.
That's not an argument. That is a claim. Can you define what a 'knowledge value is? Knowledge is known in terms of true and false. Does that mean that mystery is a value of true and false?
Ok, let's refresh Z's model by taking 4 statements:

Flimflam is wearing blue trousers
Flimflam is not wearing blue trousers
Bubb is wearing a green shirt
Bubb is not wearing a green shirt

Now all those statements are either true or false. If we introduce a point of view into it you can simply add the known/unknown factor. If the state of objective reality at the moment is that you are not wearing a green shirt then for me, the arguments are:

Known, false
Known, true
Unknown, false
Unknown, true

This separates the truth of statements as they relate to objective reality and knowledge quite neatly. As far as I'm aware you haven't come up with a coherent argument why this is invalid.

Then if that is his point, why does he disagree with me? And that is hardly the contradictions I pointed out. Those pages are waaay back there, I dont need to dig them up. If you feel I didnt contradict him, then repeat his argument as you understood it and then I will show you the contradictions or inconsistancies.
Go on then, Z disagrees with you for the ame reason that I do. Unknown is a knowledge value not a truth value. To say something is unknown is to say that a specific individual doesn't know whether something is true or false, not to say that it is neither true nor false. Unless of course you're stuck in some sort of trivalent loop.

ETA: to put in terms that are closer to what you use. The objective part of the model is the truth value i.e., whether the statement is accurate in describing reality (objectively true, objectively false). The subjective component is whether a particular individual knows the objective truth value (true or false).


Would you like to provide some evidence for this, the latest in a long line of personal slurs?
I have a right to have an observation about someone who not just argued with me, but was openly hostile and insulting to me. I have that right to state my HONEST opinion about his character. That is my honest opinion. Am I wrong? Sure, I could be wrong, but that is HONESTLY how he appears to me.
So it's just your opinion. My opinion is that he doesn't manipulate people. End of discussion. If it's just an opinion then mine is as valid as yours, a bit like beauty really.


I dont understand how you can have one set of philosophical understanding, claim it's not rational, and then argue for another set of philosophical ideas that you dont even believe in.
...
Sure, he says he puts his beliefs to one side, but I dont think that is what he does, not at least in this discussion. This is a philosophy discussion, and I dont understand how you can have one set of philosophical understanding, claim it's not rational, and then argue for another set of philosophical ideas that you dont even believe in.
If you can't separate someone's beliefs from the validity of what they write you have no business being here. I don't actually believe that I am a brain in a jar, but as a hypothesis it still holds up logically.


If you want to believe the man's words, go for it. I personally dont believe anything he writes, and wont take him at his word when he says he doesnt believe those things. The man is a woo. a big beautiful woo who has deep issues about his wooness.
Again, if you don't believe what he writes, nor consider the validity of each statement only for the statement and not entangled with the beliefs of the writer what hope do you have of actually taking part in a discussion? If I say that the Pacific Ocean is only 3ft deep and really believe that it is true, how does my belief change the fact that my statement is demonstrably false?
 
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I guess by definition alone, yes, but your not defining attraction and you havent once yet defined beauty, so I doubt we are talking about the samething.
You were the one who introduced 'attraction' into the equation, perhaps you would care to define it?

I have already listed many links to formal papers, experiments, philosophical studies, contemplations, etc etc about this. I am not your librarian. I have already posted those links and will not summarize them for you, I dont have that kind of time.
Again, you've done no such thing. You've posted links to the results of some google searches you've done.

You are making the claim, you need to substantiate it.
Did you read any of these? Some are quite interesting, perhaps you should.

The idea of objective beauty seems to be an idea that was imposed in both the Communist USSR, and in China. The third link is an interesting account of the individual resisting the state's imposition of objective beauty.

Beauty exists so long as it is experienced by man; when it is not experienced by man, it does not exist. It is impossible to overlook the aesthetic experience of beauty in studying the question of beauty. There is no aesthetics without the aesthetic experience of beauty. Any attempt to attribute objectivity to beauty is futile.

The fourth piece has the conclusion "Musical beauty evades definition", after summarising some previous attempts to quantify musical beauty.

So, three of the first four of the links you quote are actually in opposition to your thesis. The first is by the well known philosopher "Rufus Wallaby", and has links to pictures of some pretty girls.

We do, it's called symmetry.
Please show the equation that measures the symmetry of Angelina Jolie and deduces her beauty from it.


Very pretty, but I'm sure you know that is not an answer to the question. How is that an example of 'beauty being observed objectively'?

Visually by it's planar, radial, and geometrical harmonies. Sonically by it's aural harmonies. Subjectively by it's internal harmonies (thinking and feeling)

Number Theory
Where in number theory does it say "The number 3 includes all other natural numbers in existence for it to have that relevance of 3."

Music is composed of notes and beats arranged harmoniously. You failed to comprehend my meaning because you are stuck on language. Music is comprised of 12 notes that can be expressed in multiple harmonies, phrases, octaves, voicings, and rythyms.

The natural voicing, singing, when performed with perfect pitch, is objectively beautiful.

Ah, so perfect pitch is required for music to be beautiful?

when I hit a note, I hit a beat by default.
No, you don't.

so what? it's an subjective arrangement of ONE OBJECTIVE pattern of musical possibilities. Look at a musical mandala, the circle of fifths. Every single note and chord there is represented, and all music follows that pattern in some manifistation, whether the arranger or composer is aware of it or not.

What do you mean, 'so what'? Getting the distinction between objective and subjective is absolutely crucial to this discussion. Yes, the process by which a composer arrives at an arrangement may well have a subjective component (he may feel that trumpets sound better at a particular point than a violin would, for example), but the arrangement that is produced is an objective thing. The 'musical mandala', which you've just stumbled across, I would guess, is irrelevant to this.

It's objectfied on paper, and also on recording, but the process of choosing that particular arrangment was not objective, it was subjective.
We are not talking about the process of creating it, we are talking about the arrangement itself.

Beauty is both objective and subjective. I can say 'that's not beautiful to me' and still hold my meaning.

A very interesting statement; if I didn't know better, I'd suggest you were actually on the brink of understanding. In what way does that mean the beauty is objective? That's the essence of subjectivity, surely, that one person experiences something as beautiful and another does not?

At the risk of muddying the waters still further, there is certain food that I do not enjoy eating. I realise other people find it delicious. Does that make the food objectively delicious?

Not interested in your claims or opinions, only your arguments.
It would be nice if you could participate by introducing some arguments, too.
 
Music is composed of notes and beats arranged harmoniously. You failed to comprehend my meaning because you are stuck on language. Music is comprised of 12 notes that can be expressed in multiple harmonies, phrases, octaves, voicings, and rythyms.

This is really one for someone who knows music, but I think you betray a very Westernised view of music if you are limiting yourself to the 12 notes of the chromatic scale.
 
This is really one for someone who knows music, but I think you betray a very Westernised view of music if you are limiting yourself to the 12 notes of the chromatic scale.
The fact that he claims that beauty in music is objective indicates that he considers that anyone who does not share his own perceptions about music (whether those perceptions are personal or cultural) is wrong.
 
Absolutely sure about your existence ? That's weird. Pray tell. How are you so absolutely sure that you're not, yourself, a figment of someone ELSE's imagination ?

Cogito ergo sum.

ETA:

Expanding on this, I would argue that it wouldn't actually matter if I was a figment of someone elses imagination, because I have (at least the sensation of) free will.

Arrgh. Total thread derail.

One of the common ideas about posthuman civilisations or sublimed civilisations is that whole civilisations exist within a computing substrate. The "citizens" are sentient programmes r routines...
 
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Absolutely sure about your existence ? That's weird. Pray tell. How are you so absolutely sure that you're not, yourself, a figment of someone ELSE's imagination ?
Interesting argument that one, assuming you're being serious. One of my old professors said it had been put to him as "how do I know I'm not just a thought in someone else's mind" by a 12-year-old kid (which in no way reduces its cleverness). I think that the main point is that the "I" in "I think therefore I am" is not specified in any way. Even if I am a figment of someone else's imagination then "I" still exist, even if only as that figment.

If you're being really hardcore you could say that, actually, the statement should be "thought exists". But you can get round that as well by saying that the thought necessarily implies a point of view, which implies an "I". Now I'm going to be incorrigably lazy and quote from the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy since it says it better than I could:

"Granting that the cogito does not presuppose a substantial self, what then is the epistemic basis for injecting the “I” into the “I think”? Many critics have complained that, in referring to the “I”, Descartes begs the question—that he presupposes what is supposedly established in the “I exist.” Among the critics, Bertrand Russell objects that “the word ‘I’ is really illegitimate”; that Descartes should have, instead, stated “his ultimate premiss in the form ‘there are thoughts’.” Russell adds that “the word ‘I’ is grammatically convenient, but does not describe a datum.” (1945, 567) Accordingly, “there is pain” and “I am in pain” have different contents, and Descartes is entitled only to the former.

One effort at reply has it that introspection reveals more than what Russell allows—it reveals the subjective character of experience. On this view, there is more to the phenomenal story of being in pain than is expressed by saying that there is pain: in the former case, there is pain plus a point-of-view—a phenomenal surplus that's difficult to characterize except by adding that “I” am in pain, that the pain is mine. Importantly, my awareness of this subjective feature of experience does not depend on an awareness of the metaphysical nature of a thinking subject. If we take Descartes to be using ‘I’ to signify this subjective character, then he is not smuggling in something that's not already there: the “I”-ness of consciousness turns out to be (contra Russell) a primary datum of experience. And though, as Hume persuasively argues, introspection reveals no sense impressions suited to the role of a thinking subject, Descartes, unlike Hume, feels no pressure to reduce all of our concepts to sense impressions. Descartes' idea of the self does ultimately draw on innate conceptual resources."


ETA: Jimbob, I wouldn't worry about derailing this thread since it was pretty much a train wreck from the start. However I wouldn't be so sure that this is a derailment. Bubb claims that through dialectic (implication = his dialectic) I can be as sure of things in objective reality as I am of the fact of my own existence. This is simply not true. If it were true and Bubb had come up with it, he would be (i) sufficiently clever to put his arguments a lot better than he has, and (ii) making roughly a bujillion dollars on the lecture circuit.
 
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Bubblefish said:
Music is composed of notes and beats arranged harmoniously.... Music is comprised of 12 notes that can be expressed in multiple harmonies, phrases, octaves, voicings, and rythyms.
"Harmoniously"? How quaint! And I'm sure you are trying to be patronising. Instead you betray your own limited musical knowledge and ability. Yes, we all know Bubblefish has "composed" music for films (should that be "a film"?). So what!
What of Cage? Stravinsky, even? Stockhausen? How about what the Masai regard as music in Kenya? Tibetan chanting?
How ignorant can you possibly be to come up with such a pathetically inept definition of music? Don't you know anything? Have you ever visited the world outside the confines of your skull - apart from Wikipedia?
 
Ah yes I love the notes and beats in Cage's 4'33"

Well, Bubble has never heard it. For sure, he's never heard of it either. I can guarantee he'll Google it and come back and describe it in all its glory because he will have "been" to a live performance (or he "owns" it on vinyl, but just happens to have lent it out). Perhaps he would care to tell us what key he imagines it's in.
 
Nah, he'll claim that it's perfectly symmetrical and harmonious on a metaphysical level.

And he accuses ME of magical thinking! :)
 
What makes you think they are in conflict?
I don't but that is what I understood from your system:
ALL IDEAS ARE IN CONFLICT OR HAVE THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICT.
Let me restate it this way. True Ideas themselves can be represented in logical grammatical structures. 'is' is naturally in conflict with 'is not' with a singular conceptual object , such as 'trees are beautiful' or 'trees are not beautiful'.

all ideas that can be concieved of as 'true' will have in potential or acctuality an idea which will oppose it in truth structure. You can have no other way around it. The conflict of idea is essential for learning, and if there was no anti-thesis, there could be no 'thesis' to propose or ponder.

I define conflict as two or more physical or conceptual structures that wish to occupy the same physical or conceptual space as true at the same time. that's what OS 012 means by conflict.

What do you mean by conflict?

BF

So you are saying that ideas that contradict each other contradict each other, and then give it a confusing syntax to hide the triviality of the statement.

We seem to share roughly a similar idea of what conflict means.

I would make it wider, than that, but otherwise OK...
 
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