Skepticism and The Normal

And another problem with humpty dumpty's definition is that his "false" value lumps together things which are subjective "I like playing the fiddle" with things that are objectively false like "The moon is made of Wensleydale cheese". I can't see how treating these two types of statement as equivalent could be useful, and further is an impediment to understanding. Especially when he uses the word "false" to describe both of them, when only humpty here and any dullards he may have convinced would agree that that is a correct meaning of "false".

I do however agree with bubblebrain that when you use his OS012 way of thinking, the only outcome is a win win situation. If we all used it, we would all think just like him. He clearly thinks he always wins his arguments, regardless of what actually happens in them. So if we just think like him and live in our own little world, we will all think we are winning all the time.
 
OK, let me jump in here... and, no, I haven't read the whole thread.

When dealing with issues brought to this forum's attention (examples: homeopathic efficacy, 9/11 conspiracies, dowsing, qi, telepathy), any given statement has three possibilities:

1) True
2) False
3) Undetermined

A cynic will compare the statement to what he believes he already knows, and either apply 1 or 2. A skeptic is willing to apply 3, but with the caveat that an undetermined statement does not allow for 1 to be conclusively applied.

Example: if a homeopath insists that a remedy diluted 1000 times has an effect on the common cold, a cynic will simply reply that the statement is false, as the available scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against this fact. A skeptic must look at the same facts and reply that, while it is impossible to know if this remedy will or won't ever or has ever in the past affected the common cold, all available evidence suggests this statement is false.

In the case of a lack of evidence, things become more complicated. If a believer in Christianity states that the biblical God exists, the cynic states that this is clearly false, based on a complete lack of any reasonable evidence. A skeptic should take the position that the Biblical God requires a resolution of many problems from the Biblical account, and that if paradox and conflict is to be resolved, any existing God cannot match the Biblical account. He must further state that the existence of any such God cannot be shown to exist or to not exist, causing this statement to match case 3.

The problem then for a pragmatic individual is that any statement which is indeterminate ceases to be useful. Such a statement can only be useful in the most vague, abstract ways. Saying that our world is a dream of another being might be interesting from some philosophical standpoint, but it's an indeterminate statement which lacks any practical value.

Let's examine the notion of qi for a moment:

Qi is very hard to define clearly to those unfamiliar with the concept. The origins of the concept revolves around the 'vital breath', and actually began around a superstition that all breath was an energy that permeated the world. Good air made one healthy, and bad air made one ill. Air is everywhere, air moves, and a lack of air causes death. Eventually, the concept evolved into an energy concept, rather than one involving air. This lead to mystical concepts and misconceptions, leading in turn to an entire system of supernatural belief that, fortunately to its practicioners, resulted in many positive benefits.

Yet if we look critically at the claims made by qi practicioners, we learn that much of what is being practiced is good health, good common sense, and self-control of natural bodily functions. We can remove notions of qi in almost every case and still come up with similar results to the physical practices of qi practicioners; those which appear to defy physics are, apparently, the results of self/mass delusion, tirickery, or selective memory.

I do not doubt that you've had experiences which cause you to believe in the power of qi, but I do doubt that you've applied critical thinking to those experiences. I say this because I've been along the same road many times, usually with magical/psychic phenomena. Since learning to apply critical thinking and observation, I've realized the many ways in which our minds can make mountains out of molehills, and how we can be caught up in perfectly ordinary physical reactions and believe them to be mystical.

Now, does qi exist?

A rigid definition of qi is wanting, unfortunately. The most rigid definition I can find is that qi is an emergent property of physical systems, related to the underlying order found in matter-energy relationships. Of course, this would cause qi to equal, to some degree, the laws of physics, rendering a need for the concept of qi to be unimportant. Other definitions of qi result similarly in either the concept being redundant, or being false (for example, that qi is the luminous ether).

However, I'll rely upon a common definition for qi as applid in martial arts: life energy. Obviously, life energy exists; any thing which is alive is undergoing constant biochemical reactions, which involves continual conversion of energy.

Now, can qi be used to, for example, protect yourself from harm?

By itself, no. If qi is just the common natural biochemical energy of the body, there's no particular way to focus that energy into a defensive field. You can, of course, prepare your body to lessen damage from an attack - classic 'roll with it' or 'bracing' techniques. You can, of course, mentally prepare yourself to not react to pain signals - even to ignore them completely. You can, of course, regulate your breathing and heart rate for a number of effects. Yes, these things require you to use life energy; but so does reading a book or walking to the store. Even sleeping requires the use of life energy. But of course, this once again renders the notion of qi to be irrelevant.

In the case of qi, the third value simply isn't applicable. Any given definition of qi either results in an outright false statement, or in a true statement, but one in which the definition of qi equals the definition of an existing known physical process or system.

It's like defining God as a daisy. Yes, in that case, God exists, but becomes irrelevant.

Now, that being said, an indeterminate statement does not always remain irrelevant; as new evidence is uncovered, a truth value can be assigned to a statement based on new evidence. But in most cases, until a truth value can be assigned, an indeterminate statement is irrelevant.

In some cases, the value of the statement comes from secondary results. For example, if I claim that precognition exists, we would have to say that the statement is indeterminate and irrelevant, since precognition has no resulting effects at the moment. The moment an alleged precog produces significant solid evidence of their abilities, without resorting to trickery, the statement shifts to becoming both true and relevant. Until then, however, the statement remains irrelevant.

Example: I claim I can dreamwalk. This ability is difficult to control and success is limited; further, there is no outward effect apparent from this ability, since interaction in the dreams of others is strongly limited. Hence, this claim is indeterminate (since no one, not even myself, can provide solid proof of the ability) and irrelevant, since such an ability has no objective observable effect.

So, perhaps the third value should simply be 'irrelevant'.
 
Hey, Bubbafish! How are ya? Still trolling I see - some things never change. Still churning out the same old pretentious half baked garbage. Still can't spell. Even your own American English eludes you to the extent that you have to invent meanings for commonplace words, and you seem to have lost your apostrophe again. Your communication skills are really quite dreadful for someone purporting to be clever enough to understand the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
Has anyone else in this forum, apart from Mojo, been over to the Badsience.net forums to check out Bubblewotsit/TM's demented ramblings? He claimed to the moderator, when all was almost said and done, that the whole thing had been an experiment to test people's reactions - pretty much what's happening here, I'd say. It's just a different kind of trolling where the troll does it in his own thread.
In case anyone doesn't already know, Bubblefish/TM/
Edited by Lisa Simpson: 
name removed
other activity is viral marketing (not very good, but that's what he claims to do), hence the YouTube videos he likes you to watch. It might throw some light on his understanding of the words "objective" and "truth".

More later Bubblywubblyfishywishy.

Best

pv
 
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Based on the above explanation: "The sun did not rise this morning." The statement pertains to external reality, but it is incorrect. This fits with the objective/subjective definitions I am using, and is clearly false, as the sun happened to rise this morning.

I do know what you're actually meaning, but the trivial nitpicker in me just has to mention that the sun did in fact not rise this morning. The earth merely rotated around its own axis so that the sun would eventually be able to illuminate the part of our world. But the sun just stayed put, as far as the earth is conserned (I.e., I know that it's travelling through the vastness of space, but... Well, you get my drift, right?)

:D:D:D

Again, I do understand what your actual argument is about, and I have no quarrels with that.
 
Has anyone else in this forum, apart from Mojo, been over to the Badsience.net forums to check out Bubblewotsit/TM's demented ramblings?
I notice that when he opened the thread by talking about the "interesting discussion" he had had, in which arguments had "crumble[d] into nothingness" in the face of his "third value", he said that it had been at "badscience.com", for ease of reference. ;)
 
Mojo, I can't post links, but I think the memes one is worth a link too, as he pretty much derailed it, and it was his bad science debut.
 
I do know what you're actually meaning, but the trivial nitpicker in me just has to mention that the sun did in fact not rise this morning. The earth merely rotated around its own axis so that the sun would eventually be able to illuminate the part of our world. But the sun just stayed put, as far as the earth is conserned (I.e., I know that it's travelling through the vastness of space, but... Well, you get my drift, right?)

:D:D:D

Again, I do understand what your actual argument is about, and I have no quarrels with that.

That did occur to me, and perhaps I should've chosen a better example. I'll stick with the common term "the sun rises" rather than being anal. :)

I suppose I should expect nothing less out of you. I'm sure the linguistic dictator in you is not easily silenced, even though you technically stepped down from your position of power. ;)

The dictator is dead, long live the dictator.
 
That did occur to me, and perhaps I should've chosen a better example. I'll stick with the common term "the sun rises" rather than being anal. :)

I suppose I should expect nothing less out of you. I'm sure the linguistic dictator in you is not easily silenced, even though you technically stepped down from your position of power. ;)

The dictator is dead, long live the dictator.

I'm not dead yet. And thus, the setup for an obvious MP reference is born
 
2+2=5

Purely an objective statement, and factually incorrect.

I don't have much time right now, so let me just address one of two simple rebuttals.

I challenge you, Arkan, that 2+2=5 is an objective statement. If true, then would not there exist some physical model that could account for this conceptual abstraction?

It is a subjective statement, the intention of the writer who made this mistake was to account for a simple mathematical problem. 2+2 distinctions are 4 distinctions, not 5, and those 4 distinctions are verified objectivly by others. Who would verify 2+2=5 other than someone who was delusional and thus unable to distinguish objective from subjective?

2 + 2=5 is soley a subjective concept, it is not a concept all can agree on, thus, it is not objective in the definition of the word objective.
 
I'm not dead yet. And thus, the setup for an obvious MP reference is born

How long does it take that damn poison to work?


I mean... ah... that's wonderful, good to hear it! Have some more poison delicious hot chocolate!

(I'll take the high road here and not invoke the MP joke, thank you very much.)
 
I do know what you're actually meaning, but the trivial nitpicker in me just has to mention that the sun did in fact not rise this morning. The earth merely rotated around its own axis so that the sun would eventually be able to illuminate the part of our world. But the sun just stayed put, as far as the earth is conserned (I.e., I know that it's travelling through the vastness of space, but... Well, you get my drift, right?)

I loved it! Whats even more interesting, is that some places right now, on our planet, the sun did NOT rise this morning. And it won't rise all day either. It won't set either. Depends on where you are actually.

Some things are only true for the observer. The sun rising is a good example.
 
2 + 2=5 is soley a subjective concept, it is not a concept all can agree on, thus, it is not objective in the definition of the word objective.

Only using one definition of the word "objective". If you use another definition, one which is also quite common, it is objective: not being influenced by personal feelings or bias.

It's also objectively false.
 
Hey, Bubbafish! How are ya? Still trolling I see -

Best

pv

PV, I have reported you to the moderator of this forum. Please remove my name from your post, as that is in violation of forum ettiquette, and kindly stop following me around and trolling, flaming, and insulting.

You are just as welcome to address the topic of discussion as anyone else, which is the third value, but your behavior is inappropiate. I tolerated it on badscience, I wont tolerate it here.
 
If I'd been here long enough I'd post a link, as I haven't just try a quick google along the lines of: narcissistic personality disorder wiki.
LA seems to produce more than it's fair share
*if I'm going to ad hom I may as well allow the possibility that he can't control it*

sinnikal, why do you keep addressing me? either address the ideas, or leave me out of it. I am here to discuss this concept in a place where I assume many will challenge it critically, which is what I want, and which badscience.com failed to do when given the oppurtunity.

If I had a narcissitic personality disorder, I would be talking about myself for the sole intention of getting attention. I'm not here to prove I am right, I am here to find where I may be mistaken.

It's unfair to be harrassed this way when your not adding anything to the argument.

Either politely address my argument, or back out gracefully, i.e. be reasonable here
 
I have to agree that it's not very nice to ad hom BF and all that. Let his arguments speak. If you disagree, debate the arguments (or the methods), not the person behind them.

Doing otherwise just makes us look like a bunch of turds.
 
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Now that's not strictly true is it Bubba? If there was toleration going on over at BadScience it was being extended to you by the mods. Pray, enlighten us as to why you don't post there any more. Remember there is objective evidence.
 
Hey, Bubbafish! How are ya? Still trolling I see - some things never change. Still churning out the same old pretentious half baked garbage. Still can't spell. Even your own American English eludes you to the extent that you have to invent meanings for commonplace words, and you seem to have lost your apostrophe again. Your communication skills are really quite dreadful for someone purporting to be clever enough to understand the meaning of life, the universe and everything.
Has anyone else in this forum, apart from Mojo, been over to the Badsience.net forums to check out Bubblewotsit/TM's demented ramblings? He claimed to the moderator, when all was almost said and done, that the whole thing had been an experiment to test people's reactions - pretty much what's happening here, I'd say. It's just a different kind of trolling where the troll does it in his own thread.
In case anyone doesn't already know, Bubblefish/TM/Rome Viharo's other activity is viral marketing (not very good, but that's what he claims to do), hence the YouTube videos he likes you to watch. It might throw some light on his understanding of the words "objective" and "truth".

More later Bubblywubblyfishywishy.

Best

pv

:bigclap
 

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