Skepticism and Libertarians

[TheChadd]

Alot of my mates which I'd say are also 'skeptics' would be classed as libertarians in America and I'd dare say alot of skeptics that I find on here seem to lean to the same sort of libertarian right as them. Personally I am a fairly staunch leftist, I see the United States as an outlaw state etc. I was just wondering (please direct me to the thread if this has been covered before) if anyone else has noticed the amount of libertarians and if anyone has an explanation for it.

I tend to find many (at least my age, at university etc) that are leftists tend to not be skeptics much at all, often buying in to some wild 9/11 conspiracy theories and such - It's rather disheartening.

 

[UserGoogol]

I think that libertarianism has various characteristics that have it appeal to skeptically-minded people. For one, I think skeptics are more likely to be socially liberal due to skepticism over religion and the like, and therefore skeptics who would be orthodox conservatives become libertarian for that reason. Additionally, libertarian political philosophy often comes to people in very rationalistic terms (classically liberal philosophers, Ayn Rand) while (due in part to their wider popularity) the left and right uses more emotional methods. Also, the far left in particular has the problem that because of its association with communism and the like, skeptics are going to look at it and say "well, we tried it, and it didn't work" and lump it among other failed theories like Lamarckism.

I also think that there is a connection between conservativism (in the generic sense of resistance to change) and skepticism, (if a person is skeptical of new ideas, old ideas may gain the advantage because they have been "tested") and even though libertarianism has its radical elements, it does have a tendency to "look conservative" because of its connection with classical liberalism and (by extension) the founding principles of the United States constitution. At the same time, I think that skeptics are probably more likely to be socially liberal, because of skepticism directed at religion, which again helps libertarianism.

Of course, it could be that libertarianism is simply right, and that skeptics believe it simply because they are more willing to look at the facts objectively. I am not a libertarian, so I am hesistant to accept this possibility, but at the same time I suspect that even if libertarianism is wrong, it is closer to being right than a lot of other political philosophies. Personal and economic freedoms are good things, in my opinion, but the devil is in the details.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Libertarians tend to be very keen to bang their political drum, perhaps in common with many political movements outside the mainstream. Perhaps they're over-represented here because they like joining internet forums?

 

[Beerina]

They bang their drums because they have a lot of work to do. They are outside the mainstream, and sadly so, because they are much closer to the concept the Founding Fathers believed in.

When was the last time you heard a politician talk about freedom? They talk about democracy -- because "the vote" is what gets them their power. Witness the idiocy in places like Iraq where we "institute democracy", instead of freedom, and the first thing people vote for is to shove their god damned religions down each other's throat.

 

[Darth Rotor]

They bang their drums because they have a lot of work to do. They are outside the mainstream, and sadly so, because they are much closer to the concept the Founding Fathers believed in.

When was the last time you heard a politician talk about freedom? They talk about democracy -- because "the vote" is what gets them their power. Witness the idiocy in places like Iraq where we "institute democracy", instead of freedom, and the first thing people vote for is to shove their god damned religions down each other's throat.

The religious matter is already a given in Iraq, what they are fighting about is who controls the pot of resources. Your analysis completely misses the point.

Follow the money.

DR

 

[Darat]

They bang their drums because they have a lot of work to do. They are outside the mainstream, and sadly so, because they are much closer to the concept the Founding Fathers believed in....snip...

Closer yes but liberals are closer still.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Closer yes but liberals are closer still.

Which founding fathers: Hamilton's crowd or Jefferson's?

What kind of liberal: a nineteenth century classic liberal, or a Tax and Spend FDR style liberal? How about a Wilsonian League of Nations, Fourteen Points, spread democracy at the point of a bayonet liberal?

Vera Cruz for fifty, Alex.

DR

 

[Darat]

Which founding fathers: Hamilton's crowd or Jefferson's?

What kind of liberal: a nineteenth century classic liberal, or a Tax and Spend FDR style liberal?

DR

I refuse to define my no-true liberal!




Slightly more useful answer, I am referring more to what the actual founding fathers hammered out between them then any individual founding father's view, the resulting compromise was a liberal framework.

(And by liberal I'm referring to the ideology of liberalism.)

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Libertarians tend to be very keen to bang their political drum, perhaps in common with many political movements outside the mainstream. Perhaps they're over-represented here because they like joining internet forums?

Libertarians certainly seem to be over-represented on the internet in general compared to how well they do in elections. I'm not convinced that they are any more out of proportion on skeptical sites relative to the rest of the web.
The Lib. candidate got only 0.3% of the presidential vote in '04. Now it's possible that many self proclaimed libertarians don't vote their position because they know they don't have a chance to win, so they instead vote for the lesser of two evils (or just abstain). It's also likely (IMO) that many people who espouse economic and social liberties and freedom don't realize that they are really libertarians, so they align with one of the two major parties despite disagreeing with many of their issues.

Alot of my mates which I'd say are also 'skeptics' would be classed as libertarians in America and I'd dare say alot of skeptics that I find on here seem to lean to the same sort of libertarian right as them.

There was a political opinion quiz done on an atheist board. While not the same as a skeptic board, there is certainly considerable overlap. The bottom right quadrant would be the Libertarians (and bottom left is Liberal).

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I've never understood staunch libertarians, especially the anti-public education stance. (ETA: The ol' "I don't have kids, why should I pay to educate your snot nosed brats?" canard, I mean.) I feel like lecturing them about all about the nature of public goods, the tragedy of the commons, and the tragedy of the uncommons.

 

[brodski]

If skepticism= libertarianism, can anyone explain to me why the US Libertarian Party has become so closely associated with anti-government conspiracy theorists?
Check out scams such as the "liberty dollar" and it's support in libertarian circles, and what was the name of the guy that turned himself blue?

 

[Steven Howard]

When was the last time you heard a politician talk about freedom?

Me, personally? A little under two weeks ago:

The challenge playing out across the broader Middle East is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of our time. On one side are those who believe in freedom and moderation. On the other side are extremists who kill the innocent, and have declared their intention to destroy our way of life. In the long run, the most realistic way to protect the American people is to provide a hopeful alternative to the hateful ideology of the enemy, by advancing liberty across a troubled region. It is in the interests of the United States to stand with the brave men and women who are risking their lives to claim their freedom, and to help them as they work to raise up just and hopeful societies across the Middle East.

From Afghanistan to Lebanon to the Palestinian Territories, millions of ordinary people are sick of the violence, and want a future of peace and opportunity for their children. And they are looking at Iraq. They want to know: Will America withdraw and yield the future of that country to the extremists, or will we stand with the Iraqis who have made the choice for freedom?

 

[Darth Rotor]

I refuse to define my no-true liberal!

Evasion noted.

Slightly more useful answer, I am referring more to what the actual founding fathers hammered out between them then any individual founding father's view, the resulting compromise was a liberal framework.

(And by liberal I'm referring to the ideology of liberalism.)

Explanation greatly appreciated, as it trumps your evasion.

DR

 

[Kerberos]

Libertarians certainly seem to be over-represented on the internet in general compared to how well they do in elections. I'm not convinced that they are any more out of proportion on skeptical sites relative to the rest of the web.
The Lib. candidate got only 0.3% of the presidential vote in '04. Now it's possible that many self proclaimed libertarians don't vote their position because they know they don't have a chance to win, so they instead vote for the lesser of two evils (or just abstain). It's also likely (IMO) that many people who espouse economic and social liberties and freedom don't realize that they are really libertarians, so they align with one of the two major parties despite disagreeing with many of their issues.

You forgot the possibility that they realize exactly what they are, but vote for one of the two major parties because they consider the Libertarian party to be a bunch of extremists, I recall a couple of self-identifying libertarians on this board saying essentially that when the subject came up. Being libertarian doesn’t mean you should vote Libertarian, any more than being democrat or republican (and almost all Americans are both) means you should vote for the Democratic or Republican party.

There was a political opinion quiz done on an atheist board. While not the same as a skeptic board, there is certainly considerable overlap. The bottom right quadrant would be the Libertarians (and bottom left is Liberal).[qimg]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/StretchyCheese/policomp_350.jpg[/qimg]

The results might possibly in part be an artefact of the questions. I've taken some such tests and in some they use religious questions to place you. Such a mythology is clearly fatally flawed when trying to determine the political positions of atheists. Do you happen to know what test was used?

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

You forgot the possibility that they realize exactly what they are, but vote for one of the two major parties because they consider the Libertarian party to be a bunch of extremists

Good point. I hadn't thought about that, but you're almost certainly correct. Of course the same can be said of the Dems and Repubs as well, but people still vote for them in droves. I'm guessing it's the fear of wasting a vote keeps the majority away.

The results might possibly in part be an artefact of the questions. Do you happen to know what test was used?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

[Beerina]

Closer yes but liberals are closer still.

Classical liberals, which are close to libertarians.

Which Founding Fathers were interested in nationalization of health care, or providing social security, and so on? That's what I'd like to know.

 

[Beerina]

I've never understood staunch libertarians, especially the anti-public education stance. (ETA: The ol' "I don't have kids, why should I pay to educate your snot nosed brats?" canard, I mean.) I feel like lecturing them about all about the nature of public goods, the tragedy of the commons, and the tragedy of the uncommons.

The tragedy of the socialism greatly outweighs the tragedy of the commons, which (to use a quote) if you follow the money, is really a penny-wise, pound foolish political argument for the takeover of industry by powerful people.

 

[Beerina]

Libertarians certainly seem to be over-represented on the internet in general compared to how well they do in elections.

Half the damned Republican party are economic libertarians. And most of those are social libertarians too.

Alan Greenspan was a buddy of Ayn Rand he was so libertarian-esque. One of the few economic things Clinton did well was reappoint him.

Economic principles of freedom brought in by Reagan ended the stagflation of the '70's, something both Democrat and Republican administrations were content to live under indefinitely because their big government beliefs wouldn't jive with libertarian concepts of economics.

It has done nothing but dominate this nation's public discourse for 25 years, shoving liberal economics to the side, much to the benefit of everyone.

 

[Solitaire]

Of course the same can be said of the Dems and Repubs as well, but people still vote for them in droves. I'm guessing it's the fear of wasting a vote keeps the majority away.

Truer than you can ever imagine. Wow! I hate the candidates we get from the major parties, but a brief look at the third parties and I'm back in the fold. Literally, a crowd of mini-me clones. Icky! Icky! Icky!

Economic principles of freedom brought in by Reagan ended the stagflation of the '70's, something both Democrat and Republican administrations were content to live under indefinitely because their big government beliefs wouldn't jive with libertarian concepts of economics.

Unreal. Alan Greenspan ended stagflation by controlling inflation by literally slowing the rate on money growth. Reagan did nothing. He presided over an ever expanding government, something I call the Leviathan Project.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

The tragedy of the socialism greatly outweighs the tragedy of the commons, which (to use a quote) if you follow the money, is really a penny-wise, pound foolish political argument for the takeover of industry by powerful people.

I wasn't advocating socialism. I was pointing out that if you want to live in a society full of doctors, nurses, lawyers, and other educated professionals to provide you needed services, someone needs to provide them with the access to education, from grade school on. Public education is a public good. Even if you don't have children, you benefit.