single-payer system ... singled out

[Rolfe]

I knew I was having deja vu all over again....

Rolfe.

 

[volatile]

Interesting link via BoingBoing - Debunking Canadian Healthcare Myths, including the quite wonderful snippet that follows:

"Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.
The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered."


Anyone - and I'm looking at you, Balrog, - who dares claim again that government bureaucracy is more cumbersome that its private equivalent will be rightly ridiculed. I intend to link this each and every time someone makes the argument that bureaucracy is their objection to socialised, universal care.


Are there any sensible arguments against nationalised care? At all?

 

[nescafe]

Are there any sensible arguments against nationalised care? At all?

No, just arguments from people who have the World's Largest Ideological Bias.

 

[Architect]

Interesting link via BoingBoing - Debunking Canadian Healthcare Myths, including the quite wonderful snippet that follows:

And when we read the comments section on the article, we see the same old myths and spin from the anti UHC group. One of my personal favourites was a claim that the UK was a small country (60m, what the heck, eh?) and then the poster deftly sidestepped (say) German at 80m people. Another claimed that doctors had a financial disincentive not to specify treatments. All of the opponents overlook the statistics as regards cost and overall health indicators.

Nowt as blind and all that......

 

[Doc Daneeka]

Interesting link via BoingBoing - Debunking Canadian Healthcare Myths, including the quite wonderful snippet that follows:

"Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.
The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered."

Some years ago, our minister of health pointed out that the bureaucracy for our entire healthcare system (nationwide) was about the same size as that for Blue Cross of Michigan. I can't quickly find this information via google, but the statement certainly stayed with me.

Are there any sensible arguments against nationalised care? At all?

I'm quite sure that such arguments exist. However, the people with whom I have discussed the matter have so far tended to be ideologues. Their arguments have generally amounted to hand waving and rants that, once one boils away the layers of obfuscation, reduce to, "But it will dilute our ideological purity!" There are certainly much more rational people out there opposing a public option; I do not seem to encounter their arguments though.

Speaking as a Canadian who lived in the USA for some years, the major downside to a public system is that it will take longer to get an MRI, for instance. We (in the GTA) solve this by driving to Buffalo and paying for it, if able. Even this isn't a real problem though, as nobody seems to be arguing for a purely public system in the USA anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

The article was of course specifically about Canada, but I'm getting quite tired of listening to Americans who seem to think that the only possible alternative to what they have now is to adopt the Canadian system, warts and all. The Canadian system does seem to have some particular problems, which aren't evident in a number of other universal systems. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the country that put a man on the moon to do an evaluation of all the current systems in operation around the globe, note their strengths and weaknesses, and learn something.

But no. Canada has such-and-such a problem. If we had universal healthcare we'd inevitably have exactly the same problem, so don't go there.

Blinkered, much?

Rolfe.

 

[Prometheus]

The article was of course specifically about Canada, but I'm getting quite tired of listening to Americans who seem to think that the only possible alternative to what they have now is to adopt the Canadian system, warts and all. The Canadian system does seem to have some particular problems, which aren't evident in a number of other universal systems. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the country that put a man on the moon to do an evaluation of all the current systems in operation around the globe, note their strengths and weaknesses, and learn something.

But no. Canada has such-and-such a problem. If we had universal healthcare we'd inevitably have exactly the same problem, so don't go there.

Blinkered, much?

Rolfe.

It's even worse than that--it's actually a straw distortion of the Canadian system that many of my countrymen hold up as the evil we must desperately avoid. Where I live, there's only one local newspaper company still in business, and they are pretty staunchly right wing. For weeks now, the op-ed page has been informing us that Canadians are dropping like flies waiting months and months for the opportunity to pay more than we do to be seen for life-threatening emergencies, and reader comments they publish are all from those who swallow that BS hook, line and sinker.

 

[Rolfe]

I gather it does vary from province to province though, and that there are restrictions on accessing private healthcare if you want it.

I think the latter is probably a hot-button issue with Americans. I don't see what their problem is. The idea of making private medicine illegal sounds violently unAmerican, and since even Britain allows it, the idea that the USA might somehow be brainwashed into going down that road is a bit risible really.

Rolfe.

 

[Doc Daneeka]

I gather it does vary from province to province though, and that there are restrictions on accessing private healthcare if you want it.

I think the latter is probably a hot-button issue with Americans. I don't see what their problem is. The idea of making private medicine illegal sounds violently unAmerican, and since even Britain allows it, the idea that the USA might somehow be brainwashed into going down that road is a bit risible really.

Rolfe.

Private healthcare is not illegal here in Canada. It's very common, actually. There is however one major restriction: if your practice charges patients for treatment directly, then it may not also act as a public practice that bills the province. Québec is (as always) the exception here. The result is that private clinics which offer treatments not covered by the provincial plans are very common, but it's very difficult to find a hospital that will let you pay to jump the line for hip surgery or the like. Of course, there's much more to it than what I have said...

It's also worth noting that most Canadians do have supplemental private insurance. My employer, for instance, pays into a private plan that covers my dental care, life insurance, prescriptions, etc.

 

[Rolfe]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I note that when some specific alleged Canadian horror stories were posted in another thread, all the cases turned out to have been grossly misrepresented. My all-time favourite was the woman with Cushing's disease, a very slowly-progressing hormonal disorder, who was presented as having a brain tumour which would have killed her within a couple of weeks if she hadn't gone to the US for surgery.

I'm sure there are real horror stories - they occur in every system, including the US one. It was odd, though, that those presenting these examples apparently couldn't find any, and had to rely on misrepresentation to try to make their case.

Rolfe.

 

[Random]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I note that when some specific alleged Canadian horror stories were posted in another thread, all the cases turned out to have been grossly misrepresented. My all-time favourite was the woman with Cushing's disease, a very slowly-progressing hormonal disorder, who was presented as having a brain tumour which would have killed her within a couple of weeks if she hadn't gone to the US for surgery.

I'm sure there are real horror stories - they occur in every system, including the US one. It was odd, though, that those presenting these examples apparently couldn't find any, and had to rely on misrepresentation to try to make their case.

Rolfe.

You have to use misrepresentation to make the case for US healthcare. European countries have medical outcomes just as good as the US (life expectancy, infant mortality, cancer survival rates, etc.) , but manage to cover their entire populations and do so for far less money per person. By any objective standard you care to name, we suck.

Proponents of US healthcare like to make an issue of wait times, but that is deceptive. When calculating average wait times, how do you factor in people who do not get surgery because they can't afford it? The free-market types don't even bother to try.

I have heard the argument about European countries taking advantage of expensive US medical research, but I don't think anyone believes that. If we are really spending hundreds of billions of dollars a year propping up medical science in other countries, why are Republicans not complaining about that?

Malpractice insurance costs are not the problem either. Payouts have remained relatively flat on a per person basis. When was the last time you saw a tort reformer present actual numbers when making their case? It's all anecdotes and spin.

Don't even get me started on the drug companies...

 

[Oliver]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I note that when some specific alleged Canadian horror stories were posted in another thread, all the cases turned out to have been grossly misrepresented. My all-time favourite was the woman with Cushing's disease, a very slowly-progressing hormonal disorder, who was presented as having a brain tumour which would have killed her within a couple of weeks if she hadn't gone to the US for surgery.

I'm sure there are real horror stories - they occur in every system, including the US one. It was odd, though, that those presenting these examples apparently couldn't find any, and had to rely on misrepresentation to try to make their case.

Rolfe.

In this context, it's quite remarkable that the most terrifying stories about health-care realted issues are about the US-system, especially concering the uninsured/poor, the rise in national debts and the stories about personal bankruptcy due to health-costs.

Of course there is no ultimate system in the world, and yes, there are horror-stories in those systems as well, yet I have the impression that the US system is the worst when it comes to those horror-stories.

I don't understand why pro-commercial-anti-government-intervention-healthcare-conservatives never took the chance to find an own solution to compete with the Democrats approaches to the issue to gain voters who are conservative in their heart, but rather favor the Democrats approach - because this issue is another point that makes Conservatives look outdatet, stubborn, ignorant, selfish etc.

BTW, Conservatives: What's so bad about Israels Universal Healthcare since you're focusing that much on the Canadian one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Israel

 

[Rolfe]

The thing that struck me about the US horror stories was that they almost all seemed to be about lack of entitlement. People who for some reason had fallen through a crack in the system (and it's a pretty cracked system) and so had no way to access the healthcare they needed. There was absolutely bugger-all they could do, short of finding a sympathetic charity or selling everything they had to pay a fraction of the costs they would incur, then relying on Medicaid thereafter. They simply had no other recourse in the system.

In contrast, virtually all the horror stories involving universal healthcare systems seem to be about people who for some reason or another have not been given what they were or should have been entitled to. In this situation there is a great deal which can be done. Big fuss can be and is made, questions asked in parliament, judicial review, pressure to change the rules, the lot. And in fact such measures are frequently successful. Herceptin and many other drugs are now available as of right. People no longer have to wait many months for hip replacements and so on. We are about to see statutory waiting time entitlements for cancer care introduced.

The outcome of these cases is that in the US system, nothing changes. The crack remains, ready to catch its next victim. However in the universal healthcare systems the system itself can be fixed, for the benefit of all future patients. I know which one I'm thoroughly grateful to live under.

Rolfe.

 

[Oliver]

The thing that struck me about the US horror stories was that they almost all seemed to be about lack of entitlement. People who for some reason had fallen through a crack in the system (and it's a pretty cracked system) and so had no way to access the healthcare they needed. There was absolutely bugger-all they could do, short of finding a sympathetic charity or selling everything they had to pay a fraction of the costs they would incur, then relying on Medicaid thereafter. They simply had no other recourse in the system.

And yet, the hardcore Conservatives literally give a *beep*. For them, it's Canada that is the most compelling example that the "communists approach" obviously does not work - according to a minority of "Horror-Stories" that often don't mention the individual background concerning the incident but rather portray the issue as an explicit example for an obviously overwhelmingly corrupt Canadian system. But since Canada isn't the only Country having an universal system, I would love to hear conservative attacks against the Israeli one, for example.

In contrast, virtually all the horror stories involving universal healthcare systems seem to be about people who for some reason or another have not been given what they were or should have been entitled to. In this situation there is a great deal which can be done. Big fuss can be and is made, questions asked in parliament, judicial review, pressure to change the rules, the lot. And in fact such measures are frequently successful. Herceptin and many other drugs are now available as of right. People no longer have to wait many months for hip replacements and so on. We are about to see statutory waiting time entitlements for cancer care introduced.

Ditto from the German system - which, of course, isn't perfect, either. But it certainly doesn't have such huge cracks as there are in the US concerning people in trouble.

The outcome of these cases is that in the US system, nothing changes. The crack remains, ready to catch its next victim. However in the universal healthcare systems the system itself can be fixed, for the benefit of all future patients. I know which one I'm thoroughly grateful to live under.

Rolfe.

So do I. I cannot imagine to live in another country without having the feeling that there is a solution if I'm in health-related trouble. Why? - Because it sounds barbaric that society doesn't care about me after I spend all that money for federal health-issues to help other people in need.

 

[Prometheus]

Yesterday I learned that starting today, my health insurance premiums go up by $1200, all my co-payment and deductible amounts increase as well, and my level of coverage decreases. I'm not feeling all that warm and fuzzy about private health care or the wonders of the 'free market' at the moment.

 

[Oliver]

Yesterday I learned that starting today, my health insurance premiums go up by $1200, all my co-payment and deductible amounts increase as well, and my level of coverage decreases. I'm not feeling all that warm and fuzzy about private health care or the wonders of the 'free market' at the moment.

Where do you live then?

 

[Darat]

Yesterday I learned that starting today, my health insurance premiums go up by $1200, all my co-payment and deductible amounts increase as well, and my level of coverage decreases. I'm not feeling all that warm and fuzzy about private health care or the wonders of the 'free market' at the moment.

Now why did Obama do that? ......

 

[Rolfe]

Yesterday I learned that starting today, my health insurance premiums go up by $1200, all my co-payment and deductible amounts increase as well, and my level of coverage decreases. I'm not feeling all that warm and fuzzy about private health care or the wonders of the 'free market' at the moment.

An increase of $1,200? Is that per year, or what? And what are your actual premiums now? This sounds absolutely unconscionable.

Rolfe.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

In contrast, virtually all the horror stories involving universal healthcare systems seem to be about people who for some reason or another have not been given what they were or should have been entitled to. In this situation there is a great deal which can be done. Big fuss can be and is made, questions asked in parliament, judicial review, pressure to change the rules, the lot. And in fact such measures are frequently successful. Herceptin and many other drugs are now available as of right. People no longer have to wait many months for hip replacements and so on. We are about to see statutory waiting time entitlements for cancer care introduced.

Indeed. Also, why do right-wingers in the US complain about people in left-wing countries falling through cracks in the system?

Cancer patient in Scandinavia not receiving care: this shows the system's failing! Poor guy, killed by the commie liberal system of "health care"!

Cancer patient in the United States not receiving care: tough luck. If he'd worked harder, he'd have been able to get a proper insurer or pay for the treatment he needed.

Basically, what I'm trying to convey is that when we discuss the US with right-wingers, it's one's own fault if he or she can pay and it's totally acceptable that people can't afford treatment - but when it's Scandinavia, suddenly options such as paying for private care are unthinkable?

 

[Oliver]

Happening right now:

Obama health care summit
President Obama holds an online health care town hall from Annandale, Virginia