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single-payer system ... singled out

As has been suggested ad infinitum, if 300 million of a population is too big to handle, do it on a state-by-state basis and then have reciprocity. That's exactly how it works in the EU, with a population of about the same magnitude.

Except that residency within a state isn't equivalent to citizenship within a country. Even on a purely administrative level, they just don't operate the same way.

Just to give you a help up. If citizens are demanding unneccesary expensive procedures, you exclude these from your entitlement

What counts as unnecessary? I think you will find that opinions on that matter vary quite a lot, especially when it comes to end-of-life treatment. Like what Obama's grandmother received. With baby boomers hitting retirement shortly, I just don't see any major shift towards cutting off access to treatment. And you still haven't given any reason for me to believe that an expanded system would be run dramatically better than Medicare is being run.
 
And all administered independently. Which makes totaling them up in order to compare them collectively to the US a rather meaningless exercise.

So administer yours seperately, on a state level, and use reciprocal agreements, like we do in Europe, so that you will be covered anywhere in the US. You didn't respond to this last time I pointed it out. Would there also be a problem with this?
 
Only if all of healthcare were funded by the government. Not just the doctors, but the drug companies as well. They'd have to be nationalized. The government can't afford to buy drugs at those prices.

Governments seem to get some nice discounts from drug companies where I live.
 
Only if all of healthcare were funded by the government. Not just the doctors, but the drug companies as well. They'd have to be nationalized. The government can't afford to buy drugs at those prices.

And where did that happen in all the other countries?
 
Except that residency within a state isn't equivalent to citizenship within a country. Even on a purely administrative level, they just don't operate the same way.

I'm sorry, but you're hand-waving. There is no reason why healthcare couldn't be organised on a state-by-state basis with reciprocal agreements to cover travel, holidays and the like. This is what happens within Europe, hell it's what happens within the UK (NHS and NHS Scotland are entirely separate bodies).

What counts as unnecessary? I think you will find that opinions on that matter vary quite a lot, especially when it comes to end-of-life treatment. Like what Obama's grandmother received. With baby boomers hitting retirement shortly, I just don't see any major shift towards cutting off access to treatment. And you still haven't given any reason for me to believe that an expanded system would be run dramatically better than Medicare is being run.

That's because nothing's going to convince you. You've made up your mind.
 
What are these inbuilt disadvantages? And why do you think Medicare cannot be simplified? And if it can't be, then why would the health care system as a whole be amenable to simplification? How is it that a much bigger system, which will have to cover more diverse situations and would include everything already under the smaller system, can avoid the problems of the smaller system it envelops, as well as be simpler than it?

This only makes sense if we didn't know that UHC in other counties costs a lot less. And if you believe that your own government couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery.
 
Maybe that has something to do with letting Americans shoulder the burden of most drug research?

Care to back up that claim with some links, evidence, and the like? Or just following your usual MO? Part of your crusade against the evils of Socialism, eh?

ETA: Starter for ten. In the UK alone, just one of our funding bodies - the Medical Research Council - had a research spend of £579m. That excludes other government funding streams and private sector UK spend. And just for fun, we could do an equivalent process for the rest of the EU, if you want....
 
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This only makes sense if we didn't know that UHC in other counties costs a lot less. And if you believe that your own government couldn't run a piss-up in a brewery.

And your position only makes sense if you think there couldn't possibly be any other factors driving cost differences. So let's see that proven: let's see Medicare costs brought under control.
 
And are you going to support the removal of rules like the "no negotiation on prices" issue?
 
Care to back up that claim with some links, evidence, and the like? Or just following your usual MO?

Now Architect, you must know that I'm always able to back up what I claim. To suggest not doing so is my usual MO only demonstrates that you haven't really paid much attention to my posts ... either that, or you are are just downright dishonest.

Would you like proof that the US citizen shoulders most of the burden in the creation of new drugs? Sure thing. I'll just repost some of the sources I've previously posted on this forum as evidence of that. :D

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/other/interviews/taurel.html

June 19, 2003

... snip ...

Thirty years ago, because of the quality of its pharmaceutical scientists, France was number two in pharmaceutical innovation in the world. Today, after 30 years of price controls, it is number nine. ... snip ... We've seen that, again, not only in France, but in Japan, in Italy, in Spain, in Canada. Really, most of the pharmaceutical innovation is now concentrated in the United States. More than 60 percent of new drugs are invented and developed in the United States.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cr...PEpNwN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Meeting the Challenge
By John Paugh, Dept. of Commerce, Assistent Secretary for Technology Policy
September 1997

... snip ...

Between 1982 and 1992, 82 percent of ALL new biotech products were developed in the United States, 14 percent in Europe, and 4 percent in Japan. ... snip ... Eighty-six percent of new biotech products were first tested in the United States compared to 14 percent in Europe.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/25/2/452
U.S. leadership in (BAC - development of) first-in-class, biotech, and orphan drugs was more pronounced during 1993–2003, accounting for 48 percent of first-in-class, 52 percent of biotech, and 55 percent of orphan NCEs.

... snip ...

It is striking that the United States accounted for 68 percent of first-in-class launches, 45 percent of biotech launches, and 69 percent of orphan launches after 1993.

... snip ...

U.S. firms are the dominant source of biotech drugs, originating more than half of them from 1982 to 2003.

Now, obviously I'm not saying all research and development has stopped in socialized medicine systems, but by far the bulk of new drugs are being created here in good ol' Capitalist America. Not in Canada or Europe or Japan. And they are created by pharmaceutical companies operating under the profit system, not in universities or government labs (http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=4346 ). Because developing a successful drug can now costs billions of dollars (http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8150/8150notw5.html and http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/2/420 ). Which is why Canada and Europe's drug development system is so much smaller than the one in the United States today.

Now, obviously, pharmaceutical companies will make a profit where they can, and with development costs primarily paid for via the high cost of drugs here in the US, they can negotiate deals with other countries to sell some drugs at far lower prices (because they'll still make *some* profit from such deals). But if you make the US like those countries, those companies may simply decide the rewards no longer outweigh the risks and costs of development. And then we will all suffer. As is, some drugs are already not available to patients of socialized medical systems in other countries. Those patients have to come to the US to get them. :D

In the UK alone, just one of our funding bodies - the Medical Research Council - had a research spend of £579m.

Wow. What can I say. US pharmaceutical companies spend about $30 BILLION dollars annually on drug discover and development (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2003_August_19/ai_106701637/ ). And by the way, that £579m was the total research budget, not just that spent on drug development. :D
 
As has been suggested ad infinitum, if 300 million of a population is too big to handle, do it on a state-by-state basis and then have reciprocity. That's exactly how it works in the EU, with a population of about the same magnitude.

...snip...

To the nearest million the population of the EU countries is 500 million, the USA 300 million. The most populous USA state is California with 37 million people, three countries in the EU that have UHC have almost double that population (Britain, France & Germany). Whichever way you slice it the figures are against the arguments such as "UHC is OK for a 'small' country but couldn't work here" and so on.
 
Governments seem to get some nice discounts from drug companies where I live.

And where do you think drug companies recover the money lost by discount? From the private practices that have to pay full price.

There's actually a bill in Congress now about changing the way Medicare calculates reimbursement on drugs. Seems that they've been taking into account the manufacturer-to-distributor discount when calculating what the drug costs and therefore what they'll reimburse the practices for. Except those discounts have never been passed along to the practices. Medicare's simply been cutting allowables by 2%, leaving the practice to absorb the difference.

I expect the bill will be defeated, because Congress will see it as "rising costs" and not as correcting an error.
 
Can you provide any evidence that the NHS pays less than the cost of the pharmaceuticals?

Sorry, no. I have no knowledge of other countries' healthcare systems, as I only work in the US one. I should have been clearer that I was referring to the US. The US government programs (Medicare and Medicaid) get drugs at a discount (at least, they simply refuse to pay more), which is compensated by the distributors charging private companies more.

One of the problems with these discussions is that the US doesn't have a purely capitalist private system. A very large percentage of it all is already socialized in the form of Medicare, Medicaid, and VA. Complicating matters further is that the patients themselves participate in both forms--almost everybody over 65 has Medicare as their primary insurance, but can and do have secondary insurance which is generally private. Which, given the demographics of the typical oncology practice (skewed to the elderly), means that for any given patient we'll be filing claims with both a commerical insurer and the government program.

We already have a partially socialized medical system, and we have problems with it. Ditto the commercial side. That's why Americans tend not to believe in the amazing benefits of socialized medicine. It goes against our current experience. And telling us that if we just converted all the way it'd be good...well, you can see where we'd need more than trust and some internet arguments for something that big.

eta: Oh, and I forgot the horrors of "managed Medicare". It's commercial insurance that pretends to be Medicare, or Medicare programs run by commerical insurers. It manages to combine the worst aspects of both worlds, pays little, and late, and is immensely popular because the companies market it well. They're making a mint from it, but nobody else is.
 
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Sorry, no. I have no knowledge of other countries' healthcare systems, as I only work in the US one. I should have been clearer that I was referring to the US. The US government programs (Medicare and Medicaid) get drugs at a discount (at least, they simply refuse to pay more), which is compensated by the distributors charging private companies more.

...snip...

OK - do the Medi-schemes pay less than cost for their drugs?
...snip... That's why Americans tend not to believe in the amazing benefits of socialized medicine. It goes against our current experience. And telling us that if we just converted all the way it'd be good...well, you can see where we'd need more than trust and some internet arguments for something that big.

...snip...

That's pretty much conceding that the objections are irrational and based on ignorance of the actual facts!
 

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