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single-payer system ... singled out

Oliver, why are you so obsessed with US domestic issues? Seriously, isn't there anything going on in Germany right now?


I'm interested concerning this topic since I [in raw disbelief] learned that the US doesn't have universal healthcare. So I will follow this topic whenever there are big developements or national discussions about it. And yes, nothing interesting happening over here. :"/
 
Funny how in that entire interview, there wasn't a single figure presented as to the actual amount of money spent by the health insurance industry on lobbying ...


I'm pretty dure they presented a number about how much the insurance industry paid to further their interests and if I remember right, it was billions. But there were two interviews last week about that topic, so can't tell which one referred to that number.
 
Medicare writ large! Who wouldn't want that? :rolleyes:

I don't know why everyone's so down on Medicare. It performs better than commercial payors, from what I've seen. They actually pay out, and on time, whereas commerical payors fight tooth and nail to get out of paying, or at least drag it out as long as possible.

If your beef is that Medicare doesn't cover everything, well, I hate to bring this up but most commercial payors decide what they'll cover and how much they'll pay based on what the Medicare allowables are. They just copy Medicare's stance so they don't have to do the research themselves. Unless your provider or hospital has a good contract negotiator with the commercial payors, they're not going to make any more money than they would with Medicare.

Bottom line is, Medicare just tries to break even. Commerical insurance needs to turn a profit. By their very nature, commerical insurance has to cost more. That's why they fight with doctors, fight with patients, and raise their rates and cut their coverages all the time.
 
I'm pretty dure they presented a number about how much the insurance industry paid to further their interests and if I remember right, it was billions. But there were two interviews last week about that topic, so can't tell which one referred to that number.

No, they didn't. They mentioned what the entire health care industry paid (e.g. hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, doctors, etc. -- and the figure was half a billion). They didn't break the number down so it's hard to know what went into it, but typically the health insurance industry and the health care industry aren't even the same thing.

If you notice, I posted what the various groups spent on lobbying, in an earlier post.

The interviewees cite the Center for Responsive Politics (their web site is opensecrets.org) as their source. Except that:
- For the entire insurance industry (e.g. not just heath insurance, but all insurance), they have spent 300 million total in the past 20 years.
- By contrast, health professionals (e.g. the health care industry) has spent 460 million dollars over the same period. That is a lot closer to the "half billion" mentioned, but even then -- it's over two decades.
 
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Unless your provider or hospital has a good contract negotiator with the commercial payors, they're not going to make any more money than they would with Medicare.

Not true. Medicare pays considerably less than commercial payors. Those people with private insurers are, in many cases, paying the difference that Medicare doesn't pay. Here is one article about it. Here is another. And another. And another.

Two recent studies show that billions of dollars in billing are being shifted to consumers, employers and health plans by hospitals and physicians, who are trying to offset their losses from treating Medicare and Medicaid patients. Medicare, for example, pays up to 54 percent less for adult doctor visits than does private insurance.

And this is nothing new. Here's a NYT article from 1994 on the same subject:
Medicare, the Federal health insurance program for the elderly, pays doctors only 59 percent of what private insurance companies pay, and this gap may "compromise access to care for Medicare beneficiaries," a Federal advisory commission said today...

In 1989, Medicare paid doctors 68 percent as much as private insurers paid....

Medicare has always been less generous than private insurers in paying doctors. But Government data show that Medicare was paying 85 percent as much as private insurers in 1970's.


Bottom line is, Medicare just tries to break even. Commerical insurance needs to turn a profit. By their very nature, commerical insurance has to cost more. That's why they fight with doctors, fight with patients, and raise their rates and cut their coverages all the time.

Health insurance companies typically make something like a 4% profit margin. So in most cases, roughly 4 cents out of your dollar goes to premiums. You're likely paying more for Medicare Fraud than for insurance profit. Like... potentially 10-20% of your Medicare dollars are going to fraudulent claims. (Here is another article on Medicare fraud. It is a massive problem).

I'm not actually against Medicare, by the way. I think it provides a valuable service. But don't kid yourself about what it is -- and what it is not. It provides very low payments to physicians compared to commercial payors, and it is rife with fraud and abuse, to the tune of billions every year.
 
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Not true. Medicare pays considerably less than commercial payors.

Perhaps it depends on the specialty. Oncology tends to be very expensive, and commercial are even with or behind government where I work. They tend to pay about sixty to seventy percent what Medicare does on the more common drugs. The real problem is when Medicare decides not to cover a drug, or pay less for it. Then the commercials follow the lead and suddenly a good, effective drug becomes a loss to the provider, who has to decide between eating the loss, passing the cost onto the patient, or switching to a covered but possibly less effective drug.
 
Well, what standards would you like to go by? Life expectancy, infant mortality, average wait times for specific procedures, cost per capita? Choose an objective measure for determining the best healthcare and we can see how the US measures up.


It's interesting how many different systems there are in the different developed first-world countries. Each has its strengths and drawbacks. Anti-universal-healthcare Americans like to cherry-pick disdvantages from particular systems and say, look how rubbish this is. For example they'll highlight countries that have waiting lists and say, how terrible! (Ignoring the fact that most people would rather wait a bit to get a non-emergency procedure done than not have it done at all.) However, if you then say, look as France (for example), France doesn't have waiting lists, there's complete silence.

A country devising a universal healthcare system de novo has all these working examples to look at. Any reasonable commission of enquiry could examine them and report as to what was good and what was bad. That country could examine its own requirements also - does it, as a nation, value low cost? Or does it value speedy treatment over keeping costs low? These sorts of considerations would influence the type of system chosen.

The chosen system wouldn't necessarily be identical to any one in existence at present. It should be possible to learn from the mistakes of others while profiting from their successful experiments. America in particular should be in a strong position, because current per-capita spending on health is so high. With such a high starting point, it would be hard to devise an even more expensive system, and just about anything ought to be a net money-saver in the end, even if particularly low-cost options were ignored.

America is a world leader in many fields. The country is not short of brains and savvy and organisational know-how - just as it's obviously not short of money to spend on healthcare. Yes, it is a late starter compared to almost everybody else, and that has its problems as well as its advantages. And as universal healthcare systems tend to evolve from the existing base, that as well will no doubt influence the options chosen.

But it's not an insoluble problem. So how come, whenever the subject is raised, all we seem to get from many quarters is the assumption that in this one area of endeavour, America and Americans are uniquely incompetent, and that any system devised by Amercians for Americans will inevitably be a disaster?

Right now, the American system is scary. Even if you're in employment, not every employer provides good health insurance. And people can and do lose their jobs all the time. People who thought they had good insurance coverage find themselves having to fight insurance companies tooth and nail to get what they need. Some people, indeed, are very well served. But many are not - either because they have no insurance coverage (perhaps they lost their job), or because their coverage was inadequate for the needs they developed, or because the company simply decides it's going to weasel out of paying.

The world's a big place. But there's only one developed first-world country where I seriously would not want to live because of concerns over healthcare provision, and that's the USA. You'd think the world's only superpower could do a better job than this.

Rolfe.
 
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Has anyone else seen the CPR commercials on TV? They seem to be playing an awful lot, and they have the UK/Canadian opinions:



Though that last one is just like, uh, what are you talking about?
 
Gosh, what are your measures of merit to establish the so-called "top 5 healthcare systems in the world"??

This I gotta see! :rolleyes:

I believe that we dealt with this quite comprehensively some considerable time ago and that, as predicted, the current US system didn't come out of it very well.

http://www.internationalskeptics.co...133960&page=27&highlight=goverment+healthcare

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115870&highlight=socialized+healthcare

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4519533

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113750&page=2

Now, do you really want to cover all that again?
 
So apparently the single-payer healthcare system doesn't get any attention in high level talks about the future of healthcare in the US. Obama [despite being for single-payer for years] said something along the line that it wouldn't work because of the mixed and historical system in the US.

Moyers recently reported that single-payer is willlingly ignored due to the powerful insurance lobbies and all the money they spend on Politicians. So is there still a chance that the issue will gain some momentum before a Bill will be ready till August?


Single-payer is not about helping people. That's a meme for the common man. It's about entrenching people to be dependent on government. The only thing this has shown in other countries is how well it works for that purpose.

This very place is loaded with emotional defenders of removing freedom in exchange for the hot air of memes, which downplay or ignore the problems caused, such as slowing technological growth which will cause more deaths and suffering in the long run. Magnitudes more. Hundreds of economic experiments last century with billions of "test subjects" showed an unambiguous correlation in this area.


And the mantra of "single-payer" puts the complete lie to it. In some European countries, the government provides a base level of care, but you are free to pursue your own, superior care beyond that.

If this were about quality of medical care, the government would not be in the business of outlawing this.

It is exactly identical to the ludicrous proposition that, say, for retirement, you get your Social Security, but are not allowed to live off any other money. The government, and only the government shall provide for you. Got bank accounts? Tuff. Your kids inherit that someday. Or more likely we'll just seize it for you for the general good.



I now sit humbly awaiting the meme defense mechanisms of single payer to arrive. I will "have no evidence" or "am wrong", in spite of the hundreds of experiments done last century. Or medical people will "still work just as hard", a response that cynically turns them into slaves to be taken advantage of because of their desire to help, which is one of the most truly sickening positions I've ever heard, and won't be enough anyway. Or that the government "will make up the difference", which, completely neglecting the politics involved in directing money, nevertheless reduces profits (or what's the point) and it doesn't have enough money, anyway, to induce research on that level.
 
By the way, read my .sig. How many people expect that socialized, government-controled, single-payer video game development and sales will result in more, better, and cheaper games?



If it won't work for fluff like that, how would it work for something even more desired by people?


Let the meme regurgitation commence. :(
 
By the way, read my .sig. How many people expect that socialized, government-controled, single-payer video game development and sales will result in more, better, and cheaper games?

It works great for healthcare, so maybe also for computergames, have anyone tried?

The private research money you are talking about?
It comes out of the profits from healthcare, right.

With UHC you would save maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the countrys healthcare expenses. So there is plenty room/money for goverment sponsored research.

How much of the expenses of private healthcare are advertising vs. research?
 
I'm interested concerning this topic since I [in raw disbelief] learned that the US doesn't have universal healthcare.

But we do have universal health care, in a way. Go to any emergency room in the US and you'll find signs displayed prominently that tell you that you cannot be refused emergency medical treatment because of a lack of insurance or an inability to pay. Bet you didn't learn that about the US medical system, did you?
 
But we do have universal health care, in a way. Go to any emergency room in the US and you'll find signs displayed prominently that tell you that you cannot be refused emergency medical treatment because of a lack of insurance or an inability to pay. Bet you didn't learn that about the US medical system, did you?


So, tell us who pays for this, and how the money is secured.

Rolfe.
 
This is wishful thinking.


Why? That is the amount of excess that the USA as a country is paying for healthcare at the moment, compared to countries that have universal systems. Why is the USA alone too inefficient to do the same?

Rolfe.
 
Single-payer is not about helping people. That's a meme for the common man. It's about entrenching people to be dependent on government. The only thing this has shown in other countries is how well it works for that purpose.

What’s wrong with that? Seriously, what’s wrong with that? I see this anti-government stuff all the time, but if the government can offer a better deal than the private sector, why go with the private sector?

Do we as citizens of the US get a good deal out of the current private healthcare system compared to those of other industrialized countries with more government intervention? If not, why not? And if other countries are getting similar or better healthcare outcomes for less money, why not copy them?
 
With such a high starting point, it would be hard to devise an even more expensive system

Don't kid yourself. Have you seen our deficits lately? The one constant in Washington is that it's ALWAYS possible to spend even more money than you did before - in fact, it's damned difficult to ever avoid.

Right now, the American system is scary.

I'm sure if you read European press reports about it, it is. As someone living in America, I haven't found it scary at all.

Even if you're in employment, not every employer provides good health insurance.

Which is why you can buy supplemental insurance or even your own individual policy.

And people can and do lose their jobs all the time.

Which is what COBRA is for.

People who thought they had good insurance coverage find themselves having to fight insurance companies tooth and nail to get what they need.

And people who thought they had universal health care find themselves fighting government bureaucrats tooth and nail to get what they need. Welcome to the reality of rationing: whether it gets done by an insurance company or by the government, it gets done, and never perfectly.

Some people, indeed, are very well served. But many are not

And many people in the US are uninsured because they don't think it's worth the cost because they're young and healthy. And when they find out they were wrong, they get sob stories in the newspaper.
 
But we do have universal health care, in a way. Go to any emergency room in the US and you'll find signs displayed prominently that tell you that you cannot be refused emergency medical treatment because of a lack of insurance or an inability to pay. Bet you didn't learn that about the US medical system, did you?

When someone comes into an emergency room without the ability to pay, the costs for his medical care are absorbed by the hospital and passed on in the form of increased fees to wealthier patients who can pay. So really this is just an inefficient and unregulated form of Socialized Medicine.

Anyone who advocates for this is obviously a Communist. :D
 

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