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single-payer system ... singled out

There's one benefit of a public healthcare system that isn't often mentioned. Here in NZ we have a public healthcare system that's heavily funded by the government, although it's not entirely free - you'll pay for doctor's visits, medicines and that sort of thing. In addition we have a government agency called ACC that covers all medical costs associated with any accidental injury. So if you're in a car accident or whatever your treatment is free.

This is all well and good, but you do end up with some terrible waiting lists for the more common operations and so forth.

But what's interesting is because there's cheap or free public healthcare, private health insurance is also exceedingly cheap. My girlfriend pays $40 a month for full private health insurance, including dental. Almost any medical treatment she wants, she can go and get for free at a private hospital, quickly and promptly. I believe there's a cap of $75,000 for a single operation.
 
How would you coerce all doctors, nurses, technicians, administrators, clinics, hospitals, et al to go to work for the government? At Medicare pay rates?

Yes, you must be right, because in countries like France, Canada, and the UK we make our healthcare professionals work for nothing. How could I not see this before?

:rolleyes:
 
But what's interesting is because there's cheap or free public healthcare, private health insurance is also exceedingly cheap. My girlfriend pays $40 a month for full private health insurance, including dental. Almost any medical treatment she wants, she can go and get for free at a private hospital, quickly and promptly. I believe there's a cap of $75,000 for a single operation.

We have free medical cover through my wife's work. Apaprently it's dirt cheap because most things that you could ever want done are done on the NHS, in particular the big expensive and life-threatening stuff. Me, I used it to knock 2 weeks - yup, a whole two weeks, whoppeee doo - off the waiting list for a knee op. Oh, and get a private room (actually, that was the bit I wanted).
 
The payer system is a part of the health care system, but it tends to get focused on far too much to the detriment of quite a few other things that cause health care to be so expensive in the U.S. things like:

- The U.S. doesn't have a health care system. It essentially has 50 mini health care systems that all have different rules, regulations, etc. The fact is, even HMOs are not truly national organizations -- they are more like several small companies split up by state. If they nationalized health care law and standards, it would improve things, regardless of who is paying. It would nationalize the risk pool, and make any organization more efficient -- private or public.

- Administrative costs don't even come close to explaining the U.S. health care system problems. The U.S. spends about twice what other countries do, per capita, on health care. Even if you brought admin costs down to zero (which is obviously impossible), the U.S. would still be paying 170%-180% of other countries.

- The U.S. uses by far more expensive, high-tech procedures than most countries. For example, the U.S. is the leading consumer of MRIs and CTs. It uses those procedures ten times as often, per capita, as the #2 countries on the list. Ten times! American consumers demand more expensive procedures, and we get them. At a cost.

- Obviously, lack of coverage, which results in abuse of emergency services, which increases cost

- Poor health in general. Insurance costs to cover obesity-related illnesses was 2% of total costs in 1987. It was 11.6% as of 2002.

There is also talk of a “public option” in the current debate, which would basically be an opt-in government run insurance program. HMOs know that this program will be much better than what they can provide and will drive them out of business within ten years, so they are pulling out all the stops to make sure it is crushed.

Nonsense. The concern about a public option would be that it wouldn't compete at all -- that rather than negotiating rates, it would simply fix prices at a certain level. That may sound well and good, except that it's those people with private insurance that are subsidizing that. For example:
Reimbursements from Medicare cover only about 75 percent of the costs of care, according to an analysis of Colorado Hospital Association data compiled last year by The Lewin Group, a health care consulting firm based in Falls Church, Va.

The study showed that patients with private insurance pay, on average, 131 percent of the cost of care to make up for the shortfall left when others can’t pay the full share.

So sure, a public option, if it were run like Medicare, might put private insurance out of business. It might also put hospitals out of business. Or, it might simply have to either deficit spend or raise rates (i.e. taxes) once the private insurance wasn't making up the difference.

Obama's plan actually could work. Nationalize the risk pool. Force insurers to compete for customers rather than with companies. Force (or really, allow) them to compete at a national level. If implemented properly, as they did with Medicare Part D which has actually lowered costs (as opposed to how they screwed up Medicare Advantage), it would be fine.
 
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How would you coerce all doctors, nurses, technicians, administrators, clinics, hospitals, et al to go to work for the government? At Medicare pay rates?

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his means.

And we saw how well that works in the Soviet Union.........
 
Obama's plan seems to me to be a decent compromise between the messed up system we have now and giving the Government an absolute monopoly on medical care, which, dress it up as it's supporters will, is what the single payer system is.
 
- Administrative costs don't even come close to explaining the U.S. health care system problems. The U.S. spends about twice what other countries do, per capita, on health care. Even if you brought admin costs down to zero (which is obviously impossible), the U.S. would still be paying 170%-180% of other countries.
I don't think it's a matter of administrative costs as much as it is the profit centers. That's why I think nibbling around the edges with one or another system of insurance isn't going to make things much better.

ETA: And I think this aspect of the issue connects the HMO/insurance industry to the financial crisis. It's a decent model if insurance companies largely make their money on the return on investments. When that fails, their profits are simply an added cost to the healtcare industry.
 
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From each according to his abilities, to each according to his means.

And we saw how well that works in the Soviet Union.........

Canada really needs to realize that the Soviet Union fell quite a while ago.
 
S
Moyers recently reported that single-payer is willlingly ignored due to the powerful insurance lobbies and all the money they spend on Politicians. So is there still a chance that the issue will gain some momentum before a Bill will be ready till August?

Funny how in that entire interview, there wasn't a single figure presented as to the actual amount of money spent by the health insurance industry on lobbying, nor how it compares to other industries. The beginning of this program talks about the health care industry and its lobbying, then rolls into criticisms of the heath insurance industry. In fact, when you look at the beginning of the article, here is the first example used, prior to going on the long tirade against insurance:

This is from a group calling themselves Conservatives for Patients' Rights. They've been spending more than a million dollars on ads like this in the month of May alone. They've hired a conservative public relations firm called CRC. You remember CRC - the same high-minded folks who brought you the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the gang who savaged John Kerry's service record in Vietnam. Just who runs Conservatives for Patients' Rights?

The guy in the ads. His name is Richard L. Scott, an entrepreneur who took over two hospitals in Texas and built the largest health care chain in the world, Columbia/HCA.

In other words, he is not a part of the insurance industry, the guy owns hospitals. Yet the next part of this program begins with this:
DR. SIDNEY WOLFE: I think the reason is, unfortunately, simple and frightening. Which is the power of the health insurance industry.

Huh???

Let's take a look at the facts around lobbying. Take 2008:
In 2008, America's Health Insurance Plans (the insurance industry's trade group and lobbyists in Washington) didn't even crack the Top 25 in spending. By contrast, PhRMA, the Pharmaceutical industry's trade group, was 6th with 20 million. The AMA, representing doctors, was 7th, also with 20 million. The AHA, representing hospitals, was 10th, with 16.7 million. The Pharmaceutical industry also had Pfizer and Eli Lilly in the top 25 (at 23 and 24) with 12 million apiece.

Now look at First Quarter 2009:
PhRMA at nearly 7 million in lobbying. The AMA at 4.3 million, the AHA at 4.2 million and AHIP at... 2 million. Doctors and hospitals have each spent twice what the insurance industry has on lobbying. Pharma has spent three times the insurance industry amount.

I'm not suggesting the insurance industry is without influence. Obviously, they have plenty. It's just incredible the extent to which people have ignored the other players in the debate -- players with as much, if not more, influence than insurance companies.
 
Single-payer is not socialized medicine like they have in the UK, single-payer is basically just the government acting as a single giant insurance company like in Canada. Doctors, nurses, etc, are still private employees, just the payments they receive are through a government-run insurance program.

[snip]


Medicare writ large! Who wouldn't want that? :rolleyes:
 
As others have said, any health care system will have drawbacks. However I think it would be safe to say that there are several examples of health care systems in other countries which are better than that in the US.

Is it so wrong to drop our overwhelming pride and need to be better than everyone else and instead look at say the top 5 healthcare systems in the world, figure out which one we think is best, and adopt it as our own?
 
As others have said, any health care system will have drawbacks. However I think it would be safe to say that there are several examples of health care systems in other countries which are better than that in the US.

Is it so wrong to drop our overwhelming pride and need to be better than everyone else and instead look at say the top 5 healthcare systems in the world, figure out which one we think is best, and adopt it as our own?


Gosh, what are your measures of merit to establish the so-called "top 5 healthcare systems in the world"??

This I gotta see! :rolleyes:
 
Gosh, what are your measures of merit to establish the so-called "top 5 healthcare systems in the world"??

This I gotta see! :rolleyes:

Well, what standards would you like to go by? Life expectancy, infant mortality, average wait times for specific procedures, cost per capita? Choose an objective measure for determining the best healthcare and we can see how the US measures up.
 

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