single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[Soily]

(Talking about Guinn's NAA)
"His most important conclusion by far, however, scientifically defeating the notion that the bullet found on Connally's stecher had been planed, was that the elemental composition and concentration of trace elements of the three bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist matched those of a second bullet (the stretcher bullet). The stretcher bullet, then, had to be the one that struck Connally, which all of the other evidence already shown."
Reclaiming History pg. 814

The whole chain of evidence argument fails because there would be no reason for the conspirators to plant a bullet. If there was someone else on the sixth floor firing Oswald's gun, why would they need to plant an extra bullet? It doesn't make any sense.

Jesus Christ. Its like banging your head against a brick wall.

1 the bullet at parkland was not planted. That is not the argument. The bullet at parkland was simply not CE399. There is nothing, and I repeat nothing to suggest CE399 was found at Parkland.
2 the NAA used to come to Bugliosis conclusion has comprehensively been debunked and Bugliosi knows it. It's junk science.

But almost immediately, there were doubts about the statistical analysis. Then, something unexpected happened. Two scientists from Lawrence Livermore Laboratory who were avowedly agnostic on the conspiracy question, Erik Randich, Ph.D. and Pat Grant, Ph.D., published a paper in the Journal of Forensic Science calling both Guinn's original report and the two papers by Rahn and Sturdivan into serious question.
One of Randich and Grant's objections was that, although Guinn worked in good faith, he didn't understand elemental bullet metallurgy, which was Randich's area of expertise. (Nor, they made clear, did Rahn or Sturdivan.) Guinn was wrong that Mannlicher Carcano bullets were unique because the trace levels of component Sb varied. The levels of antimony in MCC bullets do vary, they said. But so do Sb levels in many bullets that, like MCC shells, are jacketed. It is the non-jacketed bullets that have consistent levels of trace components. And the levels are controlled for a very good reason.

Randich and Grant also disproved another, key Guinn contention: that there is little variation in Sb levels within a single bullet

Finally, Randich and Grant analyzed the statistical model Guinn presented to the HSCA. They determined that the number of samples he had evaluated and the number of tests he performed were inadequate to draw the sweeping statistical conclusions Guinn, Rahn and Sturdivan had drawn.

In May 2007, a second paper appeared reporting on a chemical, forensic and statistical analysis of bullets derived from the same batch as those supposedly used by Oswald. The authors, Cliff Spiegelman, professor of statistics at Texas A&M and an expert in bullet lead analysis, William A. Tobin, the FBI's former Chief Forensic Metallurgist, William D. James, research chemist with the Texas A&M Center for Chemical Characterization and Analysis, and Stuart Wexler, brought considerable expertise to their study. As with Randich and Grant, they also concluded that, "evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed." They reported that, "many bullets within a box of Mannlicher-Carcano bullets have similar composition." Thus, it was not true, as Guinn had said, that such matches are extraordinarily rare.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...tron_Activation_Analysis_Proves_Oswalds_Guilt

 

[TraneWreck]

(Talking about Guinn's NAA)
"His most important conclusion by far, however, scientifically defeating the notion that the bullet found on Connally's stecher had been planed, was that the elemental composition and concentration of trace elements of the three bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist matched those of a second bullet (the stretcher bullet). The stretcher bullet, then, had to be the one that struck Connally, which all of the other evidence already shown."
Reclaiming History pg. 814

Well, that would be a much stronger argument than those I presented.

There's a powerful, scientific chain between Oswald, the gun, the bullets, and the victims.

The whole chain of evidence argument fails because there would be no reason for the conspirators to plant a bullet. If there was someone else on the sixth floor firing Oswald's gun, why would they need to plant an extra bullet? It doesn't make any sense.

It is totally baffling.

 

[TraneWreck]

Jesus Christ. Its like banging your head against a brick wall.

This is a result of you JAQing it. If you explained your theory, then we would know how to respond to reject your doubtless insane premise.

 

[Soily]

Well, there are witnesses to the bullet, including Connally himself, but I argued that eyewitnesses should be ignored, so set that aside.

First, we have the old "when you hear hoofbeats in Kansas assume horses instead of Zebras maxim." Unless you've assumed a conspiracy, there's no other reasonable explanation of how the bullet was recovered.

But the stronger argument is that it doesn't matter. The fragments match the rifle. Three spent cartridges were found. The video evidence supports 3 bullets being shot. It's possible for one bullet to do the damage claimed by the single bullet theory...etc.

The physical evidence is 100% in support of Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone shooter.

No there are not witnesses to CE399 at parkland. The fragments matching the rifle is not a statement of fact, the NAA evidence has been disproved. Video evidence does not support anything other than Kennedy clutches his throat and Kennedy gets his head blown apart. Everthing else is rorschach. It's possible for one bullet to do the damage just unbelievably unlikely on every level, plus you don't have the bullet, the autopsy evidence, the psysical evidence and can only make the trajectory work by lying.

But apart from that you're right.

 

[riptowtan]

Jesus Christ. Its like banging your head against a brick wall.

1 the bullet at parkland was not planted. That is not the argument. The bullet at parkland was simply not CE399. There is nothing, and I repeat nothing to suggest CE399 was found at Parkland.
2 the NAA used to come to Bugliosis conclusion has comprehensively been debunked and Bugliosi knows it. It's junk science.






http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...tron_Activation_Analysis_Proves_Oswalds_Guilt

Jesus Christ. Its like banging your head against a brick wall.

1 the bullet at parkland was not planted. That is not the argument. The bullet at parkland was simply not CE399. There is nothing, and I repeat nothing to suggest CE399 was found at Parkland.
2 the NAA used to come to Bugliosis conclusion has comprehensively been debunked and Bugliosi knows it. It's junk science.






http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...tron_Activation_Analysis_Proves_Oswalds_Guilt

The findings have not been debunked whatsoever. The paper you referred to has lots of problems with it.
http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/JFK.html
So then someone replaced the stretcher bullet with CE399 afterwards?? Why would they do this? Don't worry your not the only one banging your head against the wall. You keep making all of these assertions about the trajectory being impossible or evidence that's "clearly faked." But your arguments for why you think that are nonexistent. We know that CE399 was the bullet because it was fired from Oswald's gun to the exclusion of all other weapons. Where does your claim take us? Do you think someone stole his gun from the Paine's garage, fired a shot, recovered the bullet and then later swapped it? And then of course all of the other evidence you've ignored or dismissed. (53 pieces)

 

[riptowtan]

No there are not witnesses to CE399 at parkland. The fragments matching the rifle is not a statement of fact, the NAA evidence has been disproved. Video evidence does not support anything other than Kennedy clutches his throat and Kennedy gets his head blown apart. Everthing else is rorschach. It's possible for one bullet to do the damage just unbelievably unlikely on every level, plus you don't have the bullet, the autopsy evidence, the psysical evidence and can only make the trajectory work by lying.

But apart from that you're right.

We have the bullet. (You deny its real)
The bullet could have done all that damage.(I showed you an experiment showing this is true)
I'm not sure what you believe about the autopsy evidence but you probably think that's all fake too. Everything you have said so far is the exact same lines of debate tactics that the truth movement and young earth creationists use. Cherry picking, anomaly hunting and quote mining all the way.

 

[TraneWreck]

No there are not witnesses to CE399 at parkland. The fragments matching the rifle is not a statement of fact, the NAA evidence has been disproved. Video evidence does not support anything other than Kennedy clutches his throat and Kennedy gets his head blown apart. Everthing else is rorschach. It's possible for one bullet to do the damage just unbelievably unlikely on every level, plus you don't have the bullet, the autopsy evidence, the psysical evidence and can only make the trajectory work by lying.

But apart from that you're right.

Literally every sentence of that post is incorrect. Impressive.

 

[Soily]

Literally every sentence of that post is incorrect. Impressive.

Come on then, show us the evidence CE399 was found at Parkland.

 

[carlitos]

No postal regulations, nor a refutation of the logic in posts 257 and 258. Got it.

 

[Soily]

We have the bullet. (You deny its real)
The bullet could have done all that damage.(I showed you an experiment showing this is true)
I'm not sure what you believe about the autopsy evidence but you probably think that's all fake too. Everything you have said so far is the exact same lines of debate tactics that the truth movement and young earth creationists use. Cherry picking, anomaly hunting and quote mining all the way.

No you posted some pseudo scientific thing from the discovery channel, which had the bullet exiting Kennedy's chest. Is there an exist wound in Kennedy's chest riptowan? Does Kennedy clutch his chest or his throat in the Zapruder film? Why do you promote false evidence? I've been asking since the first post for the evidence that CE399 was found at Parkland and still nobody has been able to produce any.

Your arguments on this matter are entirely faith based.

 

[TraneWreck]

Come on then, show us the evidence CE399 was found at Parkland.

First of all, as I explained, it doesn't really matter. If that bullet was never located, there is still ample evidence (despite your hystrionic protests).

Second, the NAA tests are convincing. They are strong support, but don't, alone, prove that the fragments were from the same bullet, just that its really, really likely.

Finally, you're engaging in absurd circular reasoning. There's absolutely no positive evidence to suggest that CE399 wasn't found were everyone (including the guy who had the bullet lodged in him) says it was. You're assuming a conspiracy then making massive logical leaps.

CE399 clearly came from Oswald's gun. How are you suggesting it got to the hospital or before the Warren Commission?

 

[Soily]

No postal regulations, nor a refutation of the logic in posts 257 and 258. Got it.

There's no logic in quoting false science.

Section 355 I believe.

 

[TraneWreck]

No you posted some pseudo scientific thing from the discovery channel, which had the bullet exiting Kennedy's chest. Is there an exist wound in Kennedy's chest riptowan? Does Kennedy clutch his chest or his throat in the Zapruder film? Why do you promote false evidence? I've been asking since the first post for the evidence that CE399 was found at Parkland and still nobody has been able to produce any.

Your arguments on this matter are entirely faith based.

Please. That wasn't pseudo-scientific. It was an excellent test.

You're demanding that the test mimic the event in every detail, this is impossible. The bullet entered Kennedy's back and left by his throat. Just slump your shoulders, press your shoulder blades together, slouch, sit up straight, and notice how dramatically that angle can change.

The test showed that a bullet can, indeed, penetrate all necessary elements to sustain the single bullet theory. Hell, if it hadn't hit an extra rib it even would have lodged in the thigh part.

 

[TraneWreck]

There's no logic in quoting false science.

[qimg]http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS%20JFK-RELATED%20PHOTOS/-84653h-.jpg?t=1279347120[/qimg]
Section 355 I believe.

These things are updated from time to time. Are you sure the rule was the same in 1966 as it was in 1963?

Not to mention that even if you're right, that doesn't mean that the post office in Texas followed that procedure and you haven't dealt with the Warren Commission's second plausible explanation.

 

[Soily]

First of all, as I explained, it doesn't really matter. If that bullet was never located, there is still ample evidence (despite your hystrionic protests).

Second, the NAA tests are convincing. They are strong support, but don't, alone, prove that the fragments were from the same bullet, just that its really, really likely.

Finally, you're engaging in absurd circular reasoning. There's absolutely no positive evidence to suggest that CE399 wasn't found were everyone (including the guy who had the bullet lodged in him) says it was. You're assuming a conspiracy then making massive logical leaps.

CE399 clearly came from Oswald's gun. How are you suggesting it got to the hospital or before the Warren Commission?

No, there's loads of positive evidence CE399 wasn't found at Parkland, including the evidence of all 3 men who found the parkland bullet and the testimony of everyone who handled it that day. NAA is junk.

No bullet was ever found in Connolly's thigh, just fragments. Connolly never saw a bullet, never saw CE399 and maintained till the day he died he was hit by a different bullet to Kennedy. Not a great witness for you.

 

[Soily]

Please. That wasn't pseudo-scientific. It was an excellent test.

You're demanding that the test mimic the event in every detail, this is impossible. The bullet entered Kennedy's back and left by his throat. Just slump your shoulders, press your shoulder blades together, slouch, sit up straight, and notice how dramatically that angle can change.

The test showed that a bullet can, indeed, penetrate all necessary elements to sustain the single bullet theory. Hell, if it hadn't hit an extra rib it even would have lodged in the thigh part.

Priceless. So the test doesn't replicate what happened but it's still right. Faith.

 

[Soily]

These things are updated from time to time. Are you sure the rule was the same in 1966 as it was in 1963?

Because it says so in the letter.

Holmes basically told the Warren commission what they wanted to hear, even lying about how long the documentation had to be kept for.

 

[TraneWreck]

Priceless. So the test doesn't replicate what happened but it's still right. Faith.

No, not even close.

There is no possible way to replicate every detail. People's exact postures cannot be known. The way the bullet ricocheted off of bones and seats and other materials cannot be mimiced. The position of the car can only be known within a certain margin of error.

The test showed these important things:

1) That the model of rifle and bullet could hit the target from the same height and distance as Oswald was from Kennedy.
2) The Gun/Bullet could travel through 1 person, a seat, and another person and remain largely intact.
3) The path of the single bullet would result in all of the wounds found on the victims.

That's a really, really successful test. Your piddly little complaints are laughable in the face of that experiment.

 

[RoboTimbo]

No, there's loads of positive evidence CE399 wasn't found at Parkland, including the evidence of all 3 men who found the parkland bullet and the testimony of everyone who handled it that day. NAA is junk.

No bullet was ever found in Connolly's thigh, just fragments. Connolly never saw a bullet, never saw CE399 and maintained till the day he died he was hit by a different bullet to Kennedy. Not a great witness for you.

No, Connolly is not a great witness to which bullets hit Kennedy and him.

 

[TraneWreck]

No, there's loads of positive evidence CE399 wasn't found at Parkland, including the evidence of all 3 men who found the parkland bullet and the testimony of everyone who handled it that day. NAA is junk.

No bullet was ever found in Connolly's thigh, just fragments. Connolly never saw a bullet, never saw CE399 and maintained till the day he died he was hit by a different bullet to Kennedy. Not a great witness for you.

Ah, so its back to unreliable eyewitnesses, is it? Connally said he heard a bullet fall when they moved him. Chances are he was a little preoccupied so he might not be able to give a perfect description.

Asking people if they remember what a bullet looks like that they only glimpsed while they're trying to save the lives of the President and Governor is an exercise in futility.

Many people agreed there was a bullet there. They just weren't sure it was the same bullet. Which question are people likely to get right?

1) Did you see a bullet?
2) Did you see this bullet?

Laughable argument you've presented.