single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[TraneWreck]

Maybe this was already mentioned in the thread, I didn't read the whole thing, but in addition to all the excellent points made, I would love a non-single bulleter to explain how the bullet managed to lodge itself in Governor Connally's thigh.

That thigh was obviously below the edge of the car. What are the possible angles for a bullet to travel such that it lodged in his thigh without going through the car door or window?

None of the car doors were affected, so it had to come at an angle from above. The window wasn't broken, so it couldn't come from the front.

Nothing on either side was high enough to generate the appropriate angle. Because his right thigh was pressed up againt the door, for it to come from the direction of the grassy knoll without hitting the car, it almost would have had to come straight down.

There's nothing tall enough to give the right angle on other side of the street, and if the bullet had just hit his leg, without being slowed by the President, the seat, and Connally's torso, it likely would have gone straight through the thigh and lodged in the door.

None of it makes sense. The bullet in his thigh could only have come from something really tall behind him. In order to get to that thigh, it had to travel through Kennedy and Connally, and what do we notice? Wounds in both men consistent with that theory.

THere's no other remotely decent explanation.

 

[riptowtan]

If by admit you were wrong you mean rapidly backtrack and change the subject then yeah. And it's not that you were wrong that's the problem, everyones wrong on the Internet sometimes, its that in the same breath you accuse me of lying and making stuff up!*

This is an unbelievably contrived mangling of what I said. I never for a second said there was no bag at all, my position is that i'm extremely sketpical of the official story on the bag. In my opinion a credible alternative scenario would successfully square off the contrary evidence. Oswald's own story may be correct, and like he did every day he took some lunch to work with him, perhaps in an old shopping bag. Let's consider these points:

1. Of the 4 witnesses we have that day, 2 saw no bag at all and 2 glanced at what they were sure was a much smaller bag than the one alleged by the WC. 1 way to square that is that Oswald was carrying a smaller bag, 1 that could be noticed or not depending on what angle you saw Oswald from.
2. Oswald always brought his lunch in with him prior to the 22nd.
3. Oswald told his interograters he brought his lunch with him that day
4. Some witnesses saw Oswald eating his lunch that day
5. The alleged WC bag appears in none of the crime scene photos and the account of it's finding is unbelievably confused and contradictory.
6. The bag showed no signs of having contained a rifle.
7. The WC said oswald used tape and paper from the TSBD. Yet the man in charge of the paper and tape dispenser, Troy West, told them he never left his station, even for lunch. Yet Oswald never came to him for paper on any occasion. Furthermore, the tape could only be removed from the dispenser when wet, meaning the user would have to use it there in front of West.
8 Nobody ever saw Oswald with the massive piece of paper or the tape the WC said he had, not even Frazier who gave him a lift everyday.
9 Despite the extensive handling needed by Oswald to fashion this massive piece of paper into a bag, and all the handling requited to put a disassembled rifle and carry it to work, and despite at least 3 other men handling the bag after Oswald, only 1 singular identifiable fingerprint was found on it - oswald's.
10 The FBI created a second bag themselves, which the used for identification purposes (!)
11 According to authors John Armstrong, Sylvia Meagher and Anthony Summers, on the 20th of November, somebody tried to mail something addressed to Lee Oswald but at Ruth Paines address in Irving. A postage due note was left at the Paines on the 23rd, with 13 cents to pay. On december the 4th a package addressed to Lee Oswald but with the wrong address was found at the dead letter section of the Dallas post office. It had 13 cents due and contained a brown paper bag similar to the one found in the TSBD. Since the package was tossed into the dead letter pile, it's reasonable to conclude that this was posted before Lee Oswald became the most infamous man in the world. Question is, by who and why?

Weston Frazier, who would have been the best person to ask, said he brought in a bag that day and that instead of walking in with him, he walked ahead of him into the building.

" Wes Frazier was one of Oswald's co-workers and since the Paine residence, where Marina Oswald was staying, was near Randle's house, Oswald would ride with Frazier to Irving every Friday night and the back to Dallas on Monday morning. The morning before the assassination, Oswald asked Frazier if he could have a ride to Irving to pick up curtain rods from the Paine's for his room in Dallas (2H222). Frazier said he could. The next morning as Oswald walked over to Randle's house, Randle happened to be looking out her window and saw Oswald carrying a heavy package (2H251). Frazier also saw the package in his back seat on their way to work. He asked Oswald what was in the package and Oswald said it was the curtain rods (CE 2009). When questioned later about the length of the package, both Frazier and Randle testified that is about 27 inches long while the longest part of the rifle when disassembled is 34.8 inches (CE 2009, 2H250, 3H395).

While Frazier testified the bag was only 24 inches long, give or take several inches, he made it clear he was very unsure about the length of the bag and constantly mentioned that he "didn't pay too much attention" (2H226-7, 240). "

"Randle drove over to the Paine house while police were there on the afternoon of November 22. Detective Stovall testified that she told him "that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle is what she said" (7H192 — emphasis added). She also stated on the day of the assassination that the bag was "approximately 3 feet by 6 inches" (Commission Document 5, p. 320). "

"It is also interesting to note that Mr. Raymond Krystinik, a friend of Michael Paine, testified that Michael, who saw the blanket that contained the rifle in his garage, moved the rifle several times, and stepped over it constantly, thought the blanket was only 27 inches shortly after the assassination (9H475-6, 437). When Mr. Paine testified, he stated that he thought the blanket contained 30 inch camping rods (9H437 and 2H415). When asked if he thought the blanket was 30 inches in length, he replied in the negative and held up his hands to indicate how long he thought the blanket was, which was measured as 37 1/2 inches (2H415 and 9H438). "

"When questioned by police officers after his arrest, Oswald told them that he did not bring a long bag to work and the only thing he brought to work was a bag lunch (4H217-8). Frazier testified that Oswald did not bring a lunch to work the day of the assassination. He even asked Oswald where his lunch was, since Oswald always brought a lunch, and Oswald told him he was going to buy his lunch that day (2H228). Oswald lied about the lunch bag when there was little reason to do so. Oswald lied about bringing a long package, even when the police officers suggested it contained curtain rods (7H305, 4H218). "
Obviously Oswald was lying about the bag. Everything else completely contradicts what he has alleged including the findings of his fingerprints and palm prints on the bag. The reason why conspiracy theorists make such a big deal out of the bag is because with it, everything becomes so obvious. The bag obviously contained his rifle which would explain why people saw him shooting the president in the sixth floor, the fact that his rifle was on the 6th floor, all of the fingerprint evidence and the eyewitnesses who heard the shots fired from the floor below. The totality of the evidence makes any of the so-called anomalies worthless. If you probe any murder case close enough you will find the same kinds of inconsistencies, and anomalies. The question is, are there really these tiny inconsistencies or are people just connecting imaginary dots? If Oswald was innocent you would expect there to be no evidence of his involvement. Every now and then one or two pieces of evidence could be pointed in the direction of an innocent man, but name one other case where 53 pieces of evidence have been connected to an innocent man? Oswald was guilty. Case Closed.

 

[Soily]

Maybe this was already mentioned in the thread, I didn't read the whole thing, but in addition to all the excellent points made, I would love a non-single bulleter to explain how the bullet managed to lodge itself in Governor Connally's thigh.

That thigh was obviously below the edge of the car. What are the possible angles for a bullet to travel such that it lodged in his thigh without going through the car door or window?

None of the car doors were affected, so it had to come at an angle from above. The window wasn't broken, so it couldn't come from the front.

Nothing on either side was high enough to generate the appropriate angle. Because his right thigh was pressed up againt the door, for it to come from the direction of the grassy knoll without hitting the car, it almost would have had to come straight down.

There's nothing tall enough to give the right angle on other side of the street, and if the bullet had just hit his leg, without being slowed by the President, the seat, and Connally's torso, it likely would have gone straight through the thigh and lodged in the door.

None of it makes sense. The bullet in his thigh could only have come from something really tall behind him. In order to get to that thigh, it had to travel through Kennedy and Connally, and what do we notice? Wounds in both men consistent with that theory.

THere's no other remotely decent explanation.

Problem: there was no bullet in Governor Connolley's thigh. There were bullet fragments in his thigh, but these could just as easily come from the bullet that hit Kennedy in the head and fragmented into dozens of pieces. But, I think you're quite right, there's little doubt in my mind that shots came from the rear, kennedy's back wound proves that. Unfortunately several important things were not sone properly either through accident or design. Connolley's clothes were immediately sent off to be laundered, the limousine was cleaned before it could be properly examined, Kennedy's brain was never sectioned to track the path of the bullet and probably worse of all, the autopsy, which initially didn't even notice the neck wound, never properly established whether that wound was connected to the back wound. Indeed the FBI thought right up until the Tague revelation that the back wound was shallow because that's what the autopsy appeared to show. This is probably the worst aspect of the entire Kennedy assassination for me, the autopsy is just a total mess. From the autopsy, through the at least 3 official investigations into the autopsy, the wounds change shape and position every time. Not just the back wound, which ossicilates from been at the base of the neck to 6 inches lower, but the head entrance wound ossicilates from the location of the eop to the cowlick. It,s a total mess, and add that to the fact at the ARRB revealed that not only did virtually all the eyewitnesses at Parkland say Kennedy had a massive gaping wound in the back of his head, but virtually all the eyewitnesses at Bethesda say the same thing.

 

[TraneWreck]

Problem: there was no bullet in Governor Connolley's thigh. There were bullet fragments in his thigh, but these could just as easily come from the bullet that hit Kennedy in the head and fragmented into dozens of pieces. But, I think you're quite right, there's little doubt in my mind that shots came from the rear, kennedy's back wound proves that. Unfortunately several important things were not sone properly either through accident or design. Connolley's clothes were immediately sent off to be laundered, the limousine was cleaned before it could be properly examined, Kennedy's brain was never sectioned to track the path of the bullet and probably worse of all, the autopsy, which initially didn't even notice the neck wound, never properly established whether that wound was connected to the back wound. Indeed the FBI thought right up until the Tague revelation that the back wound was shallow because that's what the autopsy appeared to show. This is probably the worst aspect of the entire Kennedy assassination for me, the autopsy is just a total mess. From the autopsy, through the at least 3 official investigations into the autopsy, the wounds change shape and position every time. Not just the back wound, which ossicilates from been at the base of the neck to 6 inches lower, but the head entrance wound ossicilates from the location of the eop to the cowlick. It,s a total mess, and add that to the fact at the ARRB revealed that not only did virtually all the eyewitnesses at Parkland say Kennedy had a massive gaping wound in the back of his head, but virtually all the eyewitnesses at Bethesda say the same thing.

No fragments could have lodged themselves in Connally's leg without going through Connally.

Is this the Magic Fragment theory? Somehow a fragment from the Kill Shot twists around in the air, dodging Connally's body, then drops down into his thigh? The bullet also glanced off Connally's forearm, which was in his lap, below the edge of the car door, and close to his Chest. Put your arm in your lap and explain how a fragment could shatter your wrist from directly behind you without hitting your back.

Again, the single bullet theory is the only available explanation for all of the evidence.

It should also be pointed out that the confusion over where the bullet entered Kennedy's back is 100% the result of comparing the wounds on the body with the bullet-hole in his jacket, which was bunched up. Lift up your arms and notice what happens to the back of your shirt.

 

[riptowtan]

Problem: there was no bullet in Governor Connolley's thigh. There were bullet fragments in his thigh, but these could just as easily come from the bullet that hit Kennedy in the head and fragmented into dozens of pieces. But, I think you're quite right, there's little doubt in my mind that shots came from the rear, kennedy's back wound proves that. Unfortunately several important things were not sone properly either through accident or design. Connolley's clothes were immediately sent off to be laundered, the limousine was cleaned before it could be properly examined, Kennedy's brain was never sectioned to track the path of the bullet and probably worse of all, the autopsy, which initially didn't even notice the neck wound, never properly established whether that wound was connected to the back wound. Indeed the FBI thought right up until the Tague revelation that the back wound was shallow because that's what the autopsy appeared to show. This is probably the worst aspect of the entire Kennedy assassination for me, the autopsy is just a total mess. From the autopsy, through the at least 3 official investigations into the autopsy, the wounds change shape and position every time. Not just the back wound, which ossicilates from been at the base of the neck to 6 inches lower, but the head entrance wound ossicilates from the location of the eop to the cowlick. It,s a total mess, and add that to the fact at the ARRB revealed that not only did virtually all the eyewitnesses at Parkland say Kennedy had a massive gaping wound in the back of his head, but virtually all the eyewitnesses at Bethesda say the same thing.

So we have multiple claims here.
Claim #1: The wounds and position change every time.
The Warren Commission's drawings were done without reference to any autopsy photo.
Here are some pictures of the wounds. By looking at the frames from the Zapruder film, you can see that the whole "back of the head wound" is garbage.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/back.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nixetal.htm

Claim #2: Virtually all the eyewitnesses at Bethesda say Kennedy had a gaping wound in the back of his head

Give some examples or a source.
In McAdam's anaylsis of these so-called "eyewitnesses" he shows that either they were not in a position to see the back of his head or have been taken out of context by conspiracy theorists.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm#witnesses

 

[riptowtan]

"The Warren Commission critics and conspiracy theorists display an astonishing inability to see the vast forest of evidence proving Oswald's guilt because of their penchant for obsessing over the branches, even the leaves of individual trees. And, because virtually all of them have no background in criminal investigation, they look at each leaf (piece of evidence) by itself, hardly ever in relation to, and in the context of, all the other evidence"
-Vincent Bugliosi

 

[Soily]

No fragments could have lodged themselves in Connally's leg without going through Connally.

Is this the Magic Fragment theory? Somehow a fragment from the Kill Shot twists around in the air, dodging Connally's body, then drops down into his thigh?

Connolly was almost flat on his back against his wife during the headshot. The fact remains there was no bullet in Connolly's thigh. It certainly wasn't the bullet found at parkland.

 

[TraneWreck]

Connolly was almost flat on his back against his wife during the headshot. The fact remains there was no bullet in Connolly's thigh. It certainly wasn't the bullet found at parkland.

I just watched the video again, you're right about his position, but...you think this helps your case?

Why was he leaning back?

I still can't imagine how you're getting extra bullets out of this:

1) The miss.

2) Kennedy is hit, at the same time Connally is hit and recoils. Where and how do you think Connally was hit by this bullet? It's just coincidence that they react at the same time and their wounds line up in a straight line?

3) Kill shot. Clearly from behind. This is when you claim Connally's wrist and thigh are hit. Ok. This still fully supports the notion that Lee Harvey was the lone shooter.

Maybe I don't understand your perspective on this, but you're dismissing the single bullet theory only in so far as it explains Connally's wrist and thigh injuries. How do you explain the injuries to Connally's torso and why was he laying on his wife's lap?

Edit: and by the way, I'm not agreeing with you that there was no bullet in Connally. They found it on his gurney. I'm just granting your claim for the sake of argument to point out that a single bullet is still the only rational explanation.

Remember, you need to explain ALL the available evidence, not just some of it.

 

[riptowtan]

Soily, do you think a bullet passed through Kennedy's back exiting his throat? If so, where do you think that bullet went?

 

[Soily]

Weston Frazier, who would have been the best person to ask, said he brought in a bag that day and that instead of walking in with him, he walked ahead of him into the building.

" Wes Frazier was one of Oswald's co-workers and since the Paine residence, where Marina Oswald was staying, was near Randle's house, Oswald would ride with Frazier to Irving every Friday night and the back to Dallas on Monday morning. The morning before the assassination, Oswald asked Frazier if he could have a ride to Irving to pick up curtain rods from the Paine's for his room in Dallas (2H222). Frazier said he could. The next morning as Oswald walked over to Randle's house, Randle happened to be looking out her window and saw Oswald carrying a heavy package (2H251). Frazier also saw the package in his back seat on their way to work. He asked Oswald what was in the package and Oswald said it was the curtain rods (CE 2009). When questioned later about the length of the package, both Frazier and Randle testified that is about 27 inches long while the longest part of the rifle when disassembled is 34.8 inches (CE 2009, 2H250, 3H395).

While Frazier testified the bag was only 24 inches long, give or take several inches, he made it clear he was very unsure about the length of the bag and constantly mentioned that he "didn't pay too much attention" (2H226-7, 240). "

"Randle drove over to the Paine house while police were there on the afternoon of November 22. Detective Stovall testified that she told him "that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle is what she said" (7H192 — emphasis added). She also stated on the day of the assassination that the bag was "approximately 3 feet by 6 inches" (Commission Document 5, p. 320). "

"It is also interesting to note that Mr. Raymond Krystinik, a friend of Michael Paine, testified that Michael, who saw the blanket that contained the rifle in his garage, moved the rifle several times, and stepped over it constantly, thought the blanket was only 27 inches shortly after the assassination (9H475-6, 437). When Mr. Paine testified, he stated that he thought the blanket contained 30 inch camping rods (9H437 and 2H415). When asked if he thought the blanket was 30 inches in length, he replied in the negative and held up his hands to indicate how long he thought the blanket was, which was measured as 37 1/2 inches (2H415 and 9H438). "

"When questioned by police officers after his arrest, Oswald told them that he did not bring a long bag to work and the only thing he brought to work was a bag lunch (4H217-8). Frazier testified that Oswald did not bring a lunch to work the day of the assassination. He even asked Oswald where his lunch was, since Oswald always brought a lunch, and Oswald told him he was going to buy his lunch that day (2H228). Oswald lied about the lunch bag when there was little reason to do so. Oswald lied about bringing a long package, even when the police officers suggested it contained curtain rods (7H305, 4H218). "
Obviously Oswald was lying about the bag. Everything else completely contradicts what he has alleged including the findings of his fingerprints and palm prints on the bag. The reason why conspiracy theorists make such a big deal out of the bag is because with it, everything becomes so obvious. The bag obviously contained his rifle which would explain why people saw him shooting the president in the sixth floor, the fact that his rifle was on the 6th floor, all of the fingerprint evidence and the eyewitnesses who heard the shots fired from the floor below. The totality of the evidence makes any of the so-called anomalies worthless. If you probe any murder case close enough you will find the same kinds of inconsistencies, and anomalies. The question is, are there really these tiny inconsistencies or are people just connecting imaginary dots? If Oswald was innocent you would expect there to be no evidence of his involvement. Every now and then one or two pieces of evidence could be pointed in the direction of an innocent man, but name one other case where 53 pieces of evidence have been connected to an innocent man? Oswald was guilty. Case Closed.

So its going to be the Bugliosi tactic of trying to win the argument purely through length is it, aware that few people will have the time to counter his seemingly endless list of rhetoric arguing tricks. Some random observations on that collection of cack.

Who saw Oswald firing from the 6th floor? The fact that you (or bugliosi which is where you seem to get everything from seemingly unable to check anything out for yourself) need to make stuff up like that indicates you are not an entirely unbiased commentator here. You can't place Oswald on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting at all, and indeed the totality of the witnesses in the TSBD point to the impossibility of Oswald been on the 6th floor. Indeed Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor until 12:20 eating his lunch. So oswald would have had to sneak up there and set up his snipers nest in under 10 minutes. Unfortunetly there's a huge problem, the motorcade that day was 5 minutes late, something Oswald could not have known. Jack Dougherty was working on the 5 and 6th floor during the assassination, between the elevator and the stairs, yet the escaping Oswald never ran past him, unless he was also invisible. Marion Baker saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom no more than 90 seconds after the shooting, looking calm and not out of breath. The rifle and the bag were both dusted for prints on the 22nd, nothing was found. It was only days later, after Oswalds death that Oswald prints were found on these items. Bugliosi makes a big play about Oswald going to se Marina on a Thursday, as if this was massively out of his routine. Except the weekend arrangement had only been going a few weeks, there was no pattern to break. And if he had this huge paper bag with him, which he must have had, how come no one else ever saw it? Where was it, down his trousers? Linnie Mae Randall simply could not have seen Oswald from where she was stood, so her assertion that he put something that could have been a rifle seem more like mischief and gossip more than anything else. Her mum was the one who actually saw Oswald approach the house that day and she mentioned no bag. Something that is rarely pointed out - Wes Frazier was arrested on the 22nd on suspicion of been involved in the murder of Kennedy. An Enfield rifle was found at his house. He was subjected to a reportedly terrifying midnight polygraph test that left him hysterical. Frazier is the only source for the curtain rod story, nobody else in the world ever said it, it all comes from him. Frazier was very specific about how Oswald held the package as he saw him walk towards the TSBD, and it simply could not have been long enough to hold a rifle however unsure Bugliosi claims he was in his estimate of the size. Of course Bugliosi and his disciples love the paper bag, because its the only thing they have linking Oswald with the rifle that day. Unfortunetly it can be challegened every step of the way. And despite the fact Bugliosi's book is ten billion pages long (and indeed of the 12 people that actually bought it, only about 3 ever read it al) he still can't find room for the fact that sometime before the 22nd someone tried to post Oswald a paper bag like the one found in the TSBD.

 

[RoboTimbo]

How did Oswald's rifle get out of the house where Oswald kept it wrapped in a blanket?

 

[Soily]

I just watched the video again, you're right about his position, but...you think this helps your case?

Why was he leaning back?

I still can't imagine how you're getting extra bullets out of this:

1) The miss.

2) Kennedy is hit, at the same time Connally is hit and recoils. Where and how do you think Connally was hit by this bullet? It's just coincidence that they react at the same time and their wounds line up in a straight line?

3) Kill shot. Clearly from behind. This is when you claim Connally's wrist and thigh are hit. Ok. This still fully supports the notion that Lee Harvey was the lone shooter.

Maybe I don't understand your perspective on this, but you're dismissing the single bullet theory only in so far as it explains Connally's wrist and thigh injuries. How do you explain the injuries to Connally's torso and why was he laying on his wife's lap?

Edit: and by the way, I'm not agreeing with you that there was no bullet in Connally. They found it on his gurney. I'm just granting your claim for the sake of argument to point out that a single bullet is still the only rational explanation.

Remember, you need to explain ALL the available evidence, not just some of it.

This is pure rorschach stuff. I don't see Connolley reacting at the same time as Kennedy at all, it appears much later to me. Everyone sees something different in that film because it's a grainy, low resolution blurry mess and its impossible to discern with even the slightest accuracy what's happening, aside from frame 313. Buggy loves to play where's the bullet here, as if that proves a anything in a case that already has at least 2 other missing bullets ('tague', 'tippit') indeed in the Tague case, the missed shot is so completely improbable that it's far more likely to be a fragment from the 313 shot, which is actually far closer to the right trajectory to hit tague. Bulgiosi has the first tague shot at 160' which is actually before Kennedy goes under the tree, making any fantasy bullet deflection from a branch impossible. So you have to explain how Oswald missed on his first and best shot by such an astonishingly large distance, and how that bullet then vanished. It's also worth pointing out that the hsca concluding from the abrasion collar that the back wound was at an upward angle of around 11 degrees, making - 6th floor window shot even more unlikely without having Kennedy leaning forward tying his show laces at te time, something he never is in the zapruder film. Dale myers rammed a square beg into a round hole, but that magic bullet trajectory just does not add up unless you have a shooter in the daltex. It's a house of cards and there simply isn't enough evidence to be certain about any of this, and as I said before the FBI, John connolly and his wife were all certain pre WC that him and Kennedy were struck by separate bullets, and that the back wound was shallow because that's what the autopsy seemed to show. The back and neck wound were never shown to be connected. That was the FBi report delievred to the WC and this would be the scenario you and bugliosi would be parroting as the absolute truth now and dale myers would be 'proving' it with cgi cartoons. Except james tague took a dump in the punchbowl and forced specter to get imaginative.

 

[riptowtan]

So its going to be the Bugliosi tactic of trying to win the argument purely through length is it, aware that few people will have the time to counter his seemingly endless list of rhetoric arguing tricks. Some random observations on that collection of cack.

Who saw Oswald firing from the 6th floor? The fact that you (or bugliosi which is where you seem to get everything from seemingly unable to check anything out for yourself) need to make stuff up like that indicates you are not an entirely unbiased commentator here. You can't place Oswald on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting at all, and indeed the totality of the witnesses in the TSBD point to the impossibility of Oswald been on the 6th floor. Indeed Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor until 12:20 eating his lunch. So oswald would have had to sneak up there and set up his snipers nest in under 10 minutes. Unfortunetly there's a huge problem, the motorcade that day was 5 minutes late, something Oswald could not have known. Jack Dougherty was working on the 5 and 6th floor during the assassination, between the elevator and the stairs, yet the escaping Oswald never ran past him, unless he was also invisible. Marion Baker saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom no more than 90 seconds after the shooting, looking calm and not out of breath. The rifle and the bag were both dusted for prints on the 22nd, nothing was found. It was only days later, after Oswalds death that Oswald prints were found on these items. Bugliosi makes a big play about Oswald going to se Marina on a Thursday, as if this was massively out of his routine. Except the weekend arrangement had only been going a few weeks, there was no pattern to break. And if he had this huge paper bag with him, which he must have had, how come no one else ever saw it? Where was it, down his trousers? Linnie Mae Randall simply could not have seen Oswald from where she was stood, so her assertion that he put something that could have been a rifle seem more like mischief and gossip more than anything else. Her mum was the one who actually saw Oswald approach the house that day and she mentioned no bag. Something that is rarely pointed out - Wes Frazier was arrested on the 22nd on suspicion of been involved in the murder of Kennedy. An Enfield rifle was found at his house. He was subjected to a reportedly terrifying midnight polygraph test that left him hysterical. Frazier is the only source for the curtain rod story, nobody else in the world ever said it, it all comes from him. Frazier was very specific about how Oswald held the package as he saw him walk towards the TSBD, and it simply could not have been long enough to hold a rifle however unsure Bugliosi claims he was in his estimate of the size. Of course Bugliosi and his disciples love the paper bag, because its the only thing they have linking Oswald with the rifle that day. Unfortunetly it can be challegened every step of the way. And despite the fact Bugliosi's book is ten billion pages long (and indeed of the 12 people that actually bought it, only about 3 ever read it al) he still can't find room for the fact that sometime before the 22nd someone tried to post Oswald a paper bag like the one found in the TSBD.

I didn't make anything up. A police officer named Howard Brennan saw Oswald in the window holding his rifle right after the second shot was fired. There were other witnesses who saw Oswald sitting up in the window with his rifle thinking he was with the secret service. During the Sunday interrogation Oswald actually slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. (The only one)
Bonnie Ray Williams was on the fifth floor during the time of the shooting and heard the shots coming from right above. He had lunch around 12, but left around 12:12. How do you think Frazier got everything so wrong. He said Oswald didn't bring a lunch for the first time, and that he brought in a long paper bag containing curtain rods. These are specific details that fit all of the other evidence. To take the word of Oswald over Frazier is silly.

 

[TraneWreck]

This is pure rorschach stuff. I don't see Connolley reacting at the same time as Kennedy at all, it appears much later to me. Everyone sees something different in that film because it's a grainy, low resolution blurry mess and its impossible to discern with even the slightest accuracy what's happening, aside from frame 313. Buggy loves to play where's the bullet here, as if that proves a anything in a case that already has at least 2 other missing bullets ('tague', 'tippit') indeed in the Tague case, the missed shot is so completely improbable that it's far more likely to be a fragment from the 313 shot, which is actually far closer to the right trajectory to hit tague. Bulgiosi has the first tague shot at 160' which is actually before Kennedy goes under the tree, making any fantasy bullet deflection from a branch impossible. So you have to explain how Oswald missed on his first and best shot by such an astonishingly large distance, and how that bullet then vanished. It's also worth pointing out that the hsca concluding from the abrasion collar that the back wound was at an upward angle of around 11 degrees, making - 6th floor window shot even more unlikely without having Kennedy leaning forward tying his show laces at te time, something he never is in the zapruder film. Dale myers rammed a square beg into a round hole, but that magic bullet trajectory just does not add up unless you have a shooter in the daltex. It's a house of cards and there simply isn't enough evidence to be certain about any of this, and as I said before the FBI, John connolly and his wife were all certain pre WC that him and Kennedy were struck by separate bullets, and that the back wound was shallow because that's what the autopsy seemed to show. The back and neck wound were never shown to be connected. That was the FBi report delievred to the WC and this would be the scenario you and bugliosi would be parroting as the absolute truth now and dale myers would be 'proving' it with cgi cartoons. Except james tague took a dump in the punchbowl and forced specter to get imaginative.

This is just wholesale nonsense.

The trajectory is fine. It has to be remembered that there are certain details that are impossible to replicate such Kennedy's exact posture under his clothes and what the bullet hit inside peoples' bodies that could slightly alter the path.

Once again, the wounds simply cannot be explained by a bullet coming from any other direction. The head shot was clearly from behind, Kennedy and Connally react almost simultaneously. You can even see Connally's jacket flap out as the bullet exits his body.

There just isn't another plausible explanation, as you've demonstrated.

 

[riptowtan]

This is pure rorschach stuff. I don't see Connolley reacting at the same time as Kennedy at all, it appears much later to me. Everyone sees something different in that film because it's a grainy, low resolution blurry mess and its impossible to discern with even the slightest accuracy what's happening, aside from frame 313.

http://reclaiming-history.googlegro...PVsC4Wz00ORzWxGjHHuhecvv1ab5qObNWgAVSUTtz98C0

Buggy loves to play where's the bullet here, as if that proves a anything in a case that already has at least 2 other missing bullets ('tague', 'tippit') indeed in the Tague case, the missed shot is so completely improbable that it's far more likely to be a fragment from the 313 shot, which is actually far closer to the right trajectory to hit tague. Bulgiosi has the first tague shot at 160' which is actually before Kennedy goes under the tree, making any fantasy bullet deflection from a branch impossible. So you have to explain how Oswald missed on his first and best shot by such an astonishingly large distance, and how that bullet then vanished.

The reason why you say it was impossible for the bullet to deflect off the tree branch is because this would explain why the first shot missed. Cognitive closure seen in full effect. Other factors include that Oswald may have been nervous at first causing him to jerk the gun.

It's also worth pointing out that the hsca concluding from the abrasion collar that the back wound was at an upward angle of around 11 degrees, making - 6th floor window shot even more unlikely without having Kennedy leaning forward tying his show laces at te time, something he never is in the zapruder film. Dale myers rammed a square beg into a round hole, but that magic bullet trajectory just does not add up unless you have a shooter in the daltex.

If you take the 11 degrees upward claim and follow it to its reductio ad absurdum, that puts the gunman lying down on the pavement in the middle of the street. We know that that didn't happen. This is resolved when you realize that it was a downward angle of 11 degrees!

It's a house of cards and there simply isn't enough evidence to be certain about any of this, and as I said before the FBI, John connolly and his wife were all certain pre WC that him and Kennedy were struck by separate bullets, and that the back wound was shallow because that's what the autopsy seemed to show. The back and neck wound were never shown to be connected. That was the FBi report delievred to the WC and this would be the scenario you and bugliosi would be parroting as the absolute truth now and dale myers would be 'proving' it with cgi cartoons. Except james tague took a dump in the punchbowl and forced specter to get imaginative.

You are the one with the house of cards. You can hunt for anomalies all you like. After 44 years, the warren commission critics haven't come up with anything convincing. The back and neck wounds are clearly connected. There was no bullet found in Kennedy's back, and the throat wound matches a trajectory from the 6th floor. How would Kennedy get shot from the front? Did the bullet jump over the front of the car and then Connally? And once you understand that those are connected, it follows that the bullet then traveled into Connally, for that was the only place for it to go. I don't understand how you can keep ignoring all of the clear evidence. Sometimes a little bit of logic does the trick. This is a really simple case. If you have 50+ pieces of evidence pointing towards someone, it is really a no brainer.

 

[RoboTimbo]

So you have to explain how Oswald missed on his first and best shot by such an astonishingly large distance, and how that bullet then vanished.

Remember how he missed General Walker?

 

[Soily]

I didn't make anything up. A police officer named Howard Brennan saw Oswald in the window holding his rifle right after the second shot was fired. There were other witnesses who saw Oswald sitting up in the window with his rifle thinking he was with the secret service. During the Sunday interrogation Oswald actually slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. (The only one)
Bonnie Ray Williams was on the fifth floor during the time of the shooting and heard the shots coming from right above. He had lunch around 12, but left around 12:12. How do you think Frazier got everything so wrong. He said Oswald didn't bring a lunch for the first time, and that he brought in a long paper bag containing curtain rods. These are specific details that fit all of the other evidence. To take the word of Oswald over Frazier is silly.

Hahaha! You're joking right? Brennan! A steam fitter not a policeman by the way.

Remington begins his first chapter with the unwise words of Gerald Ford in Life magazine of 10/2/64. With a mixture of laughter and tears, the reader will recall that Ford described Howard Brennan like this: "The most important witness to appear before the Warren Commission in the 10 months we sat was a neat, Bible-reading steam fitter from Dallas. His name was H. L. Brennan, and he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald thrust a rifle from a sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository and shoot the President of the United States." (Remington, p. 22)

Immediately afterwards, the author shows just how biased Ford must have been to write this. For Brennan told assistant counsel David Belin, "Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot." (ibid)

In his discussion of Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History, Remington points out that this is very hard to believe since it would necessitate a bullet going through a glass window. (Remington, p. 352; see also Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, p. 83) Further, the author shows that, during his visit to Dallas for reconstruction purposes, Belin almost certainly falsified the positioning of Brennan in CE 477. Belin placed him on the wrong ledge of a retaining wall and facing the wrong street. As Rodger points out, the Zapruder frames featured on the cover of Reclaiming History show that Belin was wrong in this. Yet Bugliosi fails to point this out. (ibid, Remington)

The author points out something else worth noting about this curious witness that Ford was so enamored with. Brennan admitted that he didn't see the first shot. He actually thought it was a firecracker. But he also admitted that he did not see the rifle explode for the second and third shots either. (WC Vol. III, p. 154) The author deduces that if we are to take this seriously, then Brennan must have been jerking his head back and forth between Kennedy being killed and the shooter in the TSBD – and with miraculous speed and anticipation. In reality, Brennan is not to be taken seriously. As Rodger writes, given these qualifications, "...there is absolutely no factual basis for identifying Howard Brennan as an eyewitness to the shooting..." (pgs. 35-36) Amen.

But I should add, there may be a reason that Brennan said what he did, in the way he did. As attorney Bob Tanenbaum has stated, if one goes with the Commission's version of the so-called sniper's nest, Brennan's testimony is weird. He is supposed to be the source of the original description of the assassin's height and weight. But as Tanenbaum notes: If Oswald was kneeling down behind that stack of boxes, how could Brennan have determined his clothing color, height and weight? (WC Vol. III p. 144) This may be why Brennan depicted him standing. But, if that was so, then why did he build the "sniper's nest"? (It is true that Brennan also said he saw the man before the shooting, but then he said he was sitting on the sill. He later seemed to contradict himself by saying he did not see the window until after the first shot. WC Vol. III, pgs. 144, 154)

And Bonnie Ray Williams said 12:20. But even been generous, that still leaves Oswald with just over 10 minutes to sneak up there, assemble the rifle, build the snipers nest and get himself into position. Laughable.

 

[riptowtan]

Hahaha! You're joking right? Brennan! A steam fitter not a policeman by the way.



And Bonnie Ray Williams said 12:20. But even been generous, that still leaves Oswald with just over 10 minutes to sneak up there, assemble the rifle, build the snipers nest and get himself into position. Laughable.

My mistake, you're right about Brennan's occupation, but I don't see why this makes him less credible of a witness. He did see Oswald and later identified him. His description was a young white male around 5'10 even before seeing Oswald after his arrest. You fail to address the three men who heard the shots fired from above, and the other witnesses who saw Oswald with the rifle just before the assassination.

"Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. "

Even if William's testimony was correct,Who is to say that he didn't set up the sniper's nest earlier? Oswald could have done all of that in 10 minutes without a problem. It only takes 2-3 minutes to assemble the gun, and a minute to set up the sniper's nest. It would be foolish for Oswald to have everything set up way in advance. Others could have seen the assembled rifle. Since there was undoubtedly three shots fired from the 6th floor, with no one else seeing Oswald at the time of the assassination, it is obvious that that's who was firing the shots. This would it explain why he was the only one who left the depository, why he didn't fill out one order on his clipboard, why he left his wedding ring and 170$ cash for Marina, why he later grabbed his pistol and shot Tippit, and why after he was arrested raised his fist in the air for victory. Just the kind of thing you would expect if the man was innocent..

 

[Meadmaker]

It's also worth pointing out that the hsca concluding from the abrasion collar that the back wound was at an upward angle of around 11 degrees, making - 6th floor window shot even more unlikely without having Kennedy leaning forward tying his show laces at te time, something he never is in the zapruder film.

It's also worth pointing out that the HSCA concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at the limousine, two of which struck President Kennedy. They also concluded that no other shooter hit President Kennedy, the vehicle, or any other occupant.

 

[Soily]

It's also worth pointing out that the HSCA concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at the limousine, two of which struck President Kennedy. They also concluded that no other shooter hit President Kennedy, the vehicle, or any other occupant.

It's also worth pointing out the HSCA ignore loads of their own evidence, such as their conclusion that the boxes in the snipers nest were moved by someone sometime between the last shot and approximately 2 minutes later, when an invisible Oswald was springing unseen by people in his path down the stairs on the way to his meeting with Baker no more than 90 seconds later. The HSCA also concluded Kennedy was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy, a result they came to on the basis of more than just the acoustic evidence. Sprague, Blakey, and Billings all believed in a conspiracy.