single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[Soily]

Well, all the wounds line up to have originated somewhere high in the southeast corner of the Book Depository building, so if the CE399 bullet wasn't the actual item, and another one was, you're still left with a slightly different single bullet theory with Oswald as the source.

And pray tell how do you know that? The warren commission fraudulently moved the wound in kennedy's back down 3 inches from the actual position of the wound and still couldn't get it to line up. Just look at the pictures of spectre recreating it, e wounds are in the wrong position and it still doesnt line up! And please don't quote Dale Myer's hilarious 3d cartoon as proof. Not only is it completely absurd to think you can extract sufficiently accurate 3d information from an incredibly grainy 40 year old cine film, but he uses every trick in the book to make it fit the preconceived notion of spectres sbt, including lying about how far in Connelly was to having jfk lean forward to a degree he demonstrably never is in the Zapruder film. If CE399 was the bullet passed through the bodies of 2 men 4 times, how come it didn't have 1 single microscopic piece of blood, human tissue of clothes fibres on it? How come the Warren commissions own ballistics experts did 100s of test firings of identical ammunition to CE399 was an identical rifle into cadavers and animal carcasses and on every single occasion the bullets were massively more deformed than CE399?

But as I said, the main point is there is no evidence CE399 was the bullet from parkland. So how can you have a theory when you haven't got a bullet?

If the sbt if now a different bullet, where is it? According to the theory, the bullet ended up in connoleys thigh, so where is it? Where did it go? All 3 of the witnesses who found the bullet at parkland seperetly described it as point nosed, how come by the time the WC get it its changed shape and type?

The whole point here is we only have 1 piece of known evidence about the origins of the bullet from parkland, and that's the witness statements that all describe it as point nosed. That's it.

 

[Soily]

Bugliosi does not trash Cased Closed. He says that Posner made some minor omissions and distortions but that overall it's a good book. He also agrees with Posner's conclusion, which is that Oswald did it alone. The site I linked before goes over the chain of evidence for the bullet(CE399). Buglosi does a much better job in his book "Reclaiming History", which I am currently reading. Again this whole switched bullet claim has a hidden premise. The conspirators would be both incredibly sneaky and competent but also incomprehensibly stupid at the same time. How is this possible? If someone were to plan a conspiracy to kill Kennedy and to blame it all on Oswald, why use different guns, or too many bullets? This would blow their cover and risk themselves to jail time.

The chain of evidence? See whilst bugliosi just sits in his office regurgating the work of others, some people actually go out and do their own research. John hunt for instance, actually went to the national archives with a magnifying glass and studied CE399, taking close up photos from every angle. One of the key chains in the evidence chain, Elmer Todd said he put his initials on the bullet when he had it in his possession. Yet his initials are not on ce399. Buggy oddly fails to mention this in his epic doorstop. Where's the bullet Elmer Todd initialed? In fact it's even worse than that. None of the three FBI agents who handle the bullet on it's way from parkland to the FBI lab have their initials on CE399. None of the FBI agents who handle the bullet that day can identify it as CE399. In fact nobody ever could.

You genuinely have nothing, absolutely nothing to back up the fantasy of the sbt.

 

[riptowtan]

And pray tell how do you know that? The warren commission fraudulently moved the wound in kennedy's back down 3 inches from the actual position of the wound and still couldn't get it to line up.

This is because his jacket was bunched up. There are some pretty clear photos in Bugliosi's book that demostrate this is true.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched.htm

And please don't quote Dale Myer's hilarious 3d cartoon as proof. Not only is it completely absurd to think you can extract sufficiently accurate 3d information from an incredibly grainy 40 year old cine film, but he uses every trick in the book to make it fit the preconceived notion of spectres sbt, including lying about how far in Connelly was to having jfk lean forward to a degree he demonstrably never is in the Zapruder film.

Have you tried to make a computer model refuting the theory? Why hasn't any of the conspiracy researchers? But how about an actual experiment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wfsdACktk

An important point to think about that in my opinion makes the multiple gunmen hypothesis untenable is that if you accept Kennedy got shot in the back (which all evidence indicates this is true), it follows that the bullet went through into Connally. Where else would it go? Did it zig zag off to the left like Cyril Wecht has suggested? It now seems that the conspiracy theorists have an indefensible magic bullet theory.

If CE399 was the bullet passed through the bodies of 2 men 4 times, how come it didn't have 1 single microscopic piece of blood, human tissue of clothes fibres on it? How come the Warren commissions own ballistics experts did 100s of test firings of identical ammunition to CE399 was an identical rifle into cadavers and animal carcasses and on every single occasion the bullets were massively more deformed than CE399?

Again a little bit of logic should clear this up. If the whole investigation was fraudulent why didn't they fake the ballistic tests?? The CE399 bullet was tested with neutron activation analysis to find that it was consistent with the metal fragments found in Connally. The bullets have all been confirmed to be from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association
fired a bullet into a human cadaver's wrist. This is what the bullet looked like.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bullet1.jpg

But as I said, the main point is there is no evidence CE399 was the bullet from parkland. So how can you have a theory when you haven't got a bullet?

But we do have the bullet. I've shown you a link that goes over the chain of evidence. CE399 is the bullet that killed Kennedy.

The whole point here is we only have 1 piece of known evidence about the origins of the bullet from parkland, and that's the witness statements that all describe it as point nosed. That's it.

Flat out false. Read Buglisosi's chapter on the Magic Bullet.

 

[riptowtan]

The chain of evidence? See whilst bugliosi just sits in his office regurgating the work of others, some people actually go out and do their own research. John hunt for instance, actually went to the national archives with a magnifying glass and studied CE399, taking close up photos from every angle. One of the key chains in the evidence chain, Elmer Todd said he put his initials on the bullet when he had it in his possession. Yet his initials are not on ce399. Buggy oddly fails to mention this in his epic doorstop. Where's the bullet Elmer Todd initialed?

Elmer Todd identified the bullet with his initials present in 1964. Are you calling him a liar? His initials probably would have been very faint even back then due to the fact that he is trying to write his name on a bullet with a pen. It's possible that the ink wore off after 50 years. Here are some close ups of the bullet. I can't make out any initials, but the fact of the matter is that Elmer Todd identified it in 1964.
http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phantom_files/image005.jpg

 

[carlitos]

Elmer Todd identified the bullet with his initials present in 1964. Are you calling him a liar?

False Dilemma^WP

 

[Soily]

This is because his jacket was bunched up.

An important point to think about that in my opinion makes the multiple gunmen hypothesis untenable is that if you accept Kennedy got shot in the back (which all evidence indicates this is true), it follows that the bullet went through into Connally. Where else would it go? Did it zig zag off to the left like Cyril Wecht has suggested? It now seems that the conspiracy theorists have an indefensible magic bullet theory.

Since we don't have the first clue what the shooting sequence actually was beyond the headshot, that's all speculation. Even the lone nuts have a hundred different variations, of course when we're talking about magic bullets, the LN crowd have 2 don't they? The first bullet, which Oswald had the most time to set up, missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air, never to be seen again.

Again a little bit of logic should clear this up. If the whole investigation was fraudulent why didn't they fake the ballistic tests?? The CE399 bullet was tested with neutron activation analysis to find that it was consistent with the metal fragments found in Connally. The bullets have all been confirmed to be from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Wrong. The application of neutron activation analysis in this case (and others) has been discredited I'm afraid. See the papers by Randich and Grant. I'm sure Bugliosi was aware of but was, as is so often guilty by omission. You still have absolutely nothing to link the CE399 to the bullet at parkland or the hypothetical magic bullet.

Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association
fired a bullet into a human cadaver's wrist. This is what the bullet looked like.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bullet1.jpg

Well Josepth Dolce, the warren commissions own expert's tests conclusively show otherwise.

But we do have the bullet. I've shown you a link that goes over the chain of evidence. CE399 is the bullet that killed Kennedy.

That's a fib. See my previous post, read John Hunt's article. Read Gary Aguilar's article. You and Bugliosi are just plain wrong on this one. You in fact have no chain of evidence for CE399 at all. No witness evidence, no documentary evidence, no physical evidence. Just a wild, completely evidence free fantasy.

 

[Soily]

Elmer Todd identified the bullet with his initials present in 1964. Are you calling him a liar? His initials probably would have been very faint even back then due to the fact that he is trying to write his name on a bullet with a pen. It's possible that the ink wore off after 50 years. Here are some close ups of the bullet. I can't make out any initials, but the fact of the matter is that Elmer Todd identified it in 1964.
http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phantom_files/image005.jpg

They didn't use pens, they scratched the initials on. The other FBi agents who had the bullet later have clearly identifiable initials. His aren't there. No FBI agent who had the bullet from Parkland on the 22nd ever identified CE399 as the bullet they saw.

 

[carlitos]

The first bullet, which Oswald had the most time to set up, missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air, never to be seen again.

False dilemma. That's 1:1 for you guys.

There really isn't any need for the hyperbole. Just present evidence for your assertions.

 

[Soily]

That's not my assertion, that's the Warren commission and lone nuts assertion. They say oswald's first shot, the one he had the most time to set up, missed the car, even when it was at it's closest to him, by an absolutely huge margin, ricocheted on a curb and hit james tague. Check the photographs to see how big a miss this is. Oddly, the next two shots, which he had just a few seconds to make, were really accurate.

 

[carlitos]

That's not my assertion, that's the Warren commission and lone nuts assertion. They say oswald's first shot, the one he had the most time to set up, missed the car, even when it was at it's closest to him, by an absolutely huge margin, ricocheted on a curb and hit james tague. Check the photographs to see how big a miss this is. Oddly, the next two shots, which he had just a few seconds to make, were really accurate.

OK, so they didn't claim it "missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air." That's your claim, right? Will you be presenting evidence to this effect?

 

[Soily]

OK, so they didn't claim it "missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air." That's your claim, right? Will you be presenting evidence to this effect?

That's what the Warren commission proposed yes, although of course it was not a direct quote as it was not in their interests to phrase it in that way. Maybe you should read up on the case a little bit?

 

[carlitos]

I'm not at all interested in your imagined reasons for why the Warren Commission phrased something in a certain way.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

 

[riptowtan]

That's not my assertion, that's the Warren commission and lone nuts assertion. They say oswald's first shot, the one he had the most time to set up, missed the car, even when it was at it's closest to him, by an absolutely huge margin, ricocheted on a curb and hit james tague. Check the photographs to see how big a miss this is. Oddly, the next two shots, which he had just a few seconds to make, were really accurate.

The bullet probably was deflected by a tree branch. This would explain why is missed by such a huge margin.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tague.htm

I'll have to get back to you about the neutron activation analysis. I'm not too familiar with how it works or how reliable it is.

Since we don't have the first clue what the shooting sequence actually was beyond the headshot, that's all speculation. Even the lone nuts have a hundred different variations, of course when we're talking about magic bullets, the LN crowd have 2 don't they?

How is it speculation? We can infer that the second bullet hit JFK in the back and then exited his throat, based off of the zapruder film and autopsy reports. If you grant this as being true, the whole conspiracy theory breaks down. Where did the "magic bullet" go after it hit JFK in the back?

They didn't use pens, they scratched the initials on. The other FBi agents who had the bullet later have clearly identifiable initials. His aren't there. No FBI agent who had the bullet from Parkland on the 22nd ever identified CE399 as the bullet they saw.

Thanks for the correction.

John Hunt never actually went to the archives to handle the bullet himself. It says so in his own article. He posted pictures from this website
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Magic_Bullet

"The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399
bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using
photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the
bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos." -- John Hunt

Couldn't the reason why we can't see the initials be that the picture is just not clear enough to see them?

My main problem with this whole switched bullet claim, is that it is logically absurd. Why would they plant a phony bullet when they could end up with too many bullets, exposing the plot? The FBI agents said that the bullet "appeared to be the same", but did not positively identify it. Better yet, knowing that Todd and other marked the bullet, why not get them in on the vast conspiracy as well? And we're still left with the problem that CE399 was fired from Oswald's rife to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Another reason why I think CE399 is the bullet that hit both Kennedy and Connally.

"There is another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing to
the stretcher bullet as the bullet that passed through Kennedy's and
Connally's bodies. If it weren't, then what happened to that bullet,
which, its velocity nearly spent, barely penetrated the governor's
left thigh? Since we know that the FBI and Secret Service scoured the
limousine for evidence and even found several small bullet fragments,
surely they would have found the bullet, inside the limousine, that
dropped from the governor's left thigh. The fact that no such bullet was found in the presidential limousine is fairly strong circumstantial evidence that that bullet is the same one found on the governor's stretcher."
from "Reclaiming History"

 

[riptowtan]

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

I agree. I think Bugliosi said it best. First there is hair splitting, then there are the splitting of the split hairs.

 

[riptowtan]

False Dilemma^WP

Darn, you got me! I should have phrased it differently.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I agree. I think Bugliosi said it best. First there is hair splitting, then there are the splitting of the split hairs.

What else do we expect from a hair-brained idea?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Thanks very much!

This one is really easy. There's a whole list of reasons why it's false which we can go through if you want but they're largely irrelevant because of one simple fact. There is no single bullet theory because there is no single bullet. The bullet found at parkland hospital was absolutely not the same bullet entered into evidence as CE399. If anyone has proof it was I'd contact the authorities as you have a major new breakthrough on your hands!

Let's express this as a line of reasoning.

P1: CE399 was not the bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

C: There was no single bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

Your conclusion wouldn't follow from your premise even if your premise were established (which it isn't).

Would you like to try that again, but coherently?

Dave

 

[Soily]

The bullet probably was deflected by a tree branch. This would explain why is missed by such a huge margin.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tague.htm

And the evidence for that is...? Ohh that's right, absolutely nothing. Talk about double standards.

How is it speculation? We can infer that the second bullet hit JFK in the back and then exited his throat, based off of the zapruder film and autopsy reports. If you grant this as being true, the whole conspiracy theory breaks down. Where did the "magic bullet" go after it hit JFK in the back

Err no we can't infer that at all. I don't really want to get into the sad saga of the autopsy and the ever changing wounds because that could be another dozen threads in itself, but there's good reason to believe the back wound was shallow. And regardless of what fantasists like myers say, there's absolutely nothing obvious in the zapruder film that proves they were hit by the same bullet. Get a thousand different people and they'll see a thousand different things. Connolley and his wife both maintained till the end of their days they were hit by a different bullet. And the hilarious 'scientific' trajectory analysis of myers and the rest of them disproves their theory own anyway , they have to keep shifting the wounds about or putting Kennedy in positions he never is. The whole idea you can actually draw a line back from a wound with any accuracy, based on a 40 year old grainy, low resolution cine film is utterly absurd. Any one measurement would only have to be a fraction out for a line then drawn back 200 yards to be massively out. And with these recreations every measurement will be at least a fraction out. It's absolutely pseudo science, but people seem to be impressed because if it's a 3d computer simulation it must somehow have space age accuracy. Well sorry, but it's only as good as the information entered into it. And besides that, I can think of at least one of these recreations, for the discovery channel documentary the KGB jfk files which shows the line going back to the daltek. Another one from last year shows the wound exiting in kennedys chest!

John Hunt never actually went to the archives to handle the bullet himself. It says so in his own article. He posted pictures from this website
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Magic_Bullet

"The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399
bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using
photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the
bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos." -- John Hunt

Couldn't the reason why we can't see the initials be that the picture is just not clear enough to see them?

I was under the impression he'd examined it himself with a magnifying glass, he certainly went to the national archives on many occasions to study the evidence. Seems like he didn't take the photos but used the nara preservation photos, which are incidentally available in bigger versions than he uses for illustration in his piece. I agree that initials could have somehow worn off, but since the others didn't, and they were made within days of each other, it's hard to think why.

My main problem with this whole switched bullet claim, is that it is logically absurd. Why would they plant a phony bullet when they could end up with too many bullets, exposing the plot? The FBI agents said that the bullet "appeared to be the same", but did not positively identify it. Better yet, knowing that Todd and other marked the bullet, why not get them in on the vast conspiracy as well? And we're still left with the problem that CE399 was fired from Oswald's rife to the exclusion of all other weapons.

I'm not sure you fully appreciate what we're saying. The bullet wasn't planted. A bullet was found at parkland, and the only evidence we have in existence about that bullet was that it was a point nosed hunting round. This bullet was taken to the FBI where at some point it became apparent that it could not have been fired by Oswald. At which point that bullet was deep sixed and replaced with a bullet fired from Oswald's rifle at some later point. That bullet was then shown to the witneses, none of whom could identity it, although a fraudulent memo from the FBI gives the impression they did. http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm
[/quote]

Another reason why I think CE399 is the bullet that hit both Kennedy and Connally.

"There is another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing to
the stretcher bullet as the bullet that passed through Kennedy's and
Connally's bodies. If it weren't, then what happened to that bullet,
which, its velocity nearly spent, barely penetrated the governor's
left thigh? Since we know that the FBI and Secret Service scoured the
limousine for evidence and even found several small bullet fragments,
surely they would have found the bullet, inside the limousine, that
dropped from the governor's left thigh. The fact that no such bullet was found in the presidential limousine is fairly strong circumstantial evidence that that bullet is the same one found on the governor's stretcher."
from "Reclaiming History"[/QUOTE]
It's evidence of nothing. We have several missing bullets in this case. The first shot is missing. One of the tippet bullets is missing. Lots of missing evidence. And there is some pretty good evidence there was another bullet at parkland, both Henry Wade and governor connolly describe a bullet that fell out of his clothing in the emergency room, which a nurse put in her pocket. Bob Harris has a good video on YouTube that goes through this.

The other thing its important to understand about the sbt is it was not the FBI theory. The FBI had concluded their report and their shot sequence was entirely different, there was no sbt, jfk and connolly were struck by different bullets and CE399 fell out of JFKs back. If it wasn't for he inconvenient James Tague that would be the version you and macadams and bugliosi would be twisting and turning to defend today. The sbt theory was entirely a work of imagination from specter and his lawyers, to get them out of a terrible fix.

Other things you have to ask, if CE399 caused all those wounds, why was there no blood, human tissue, bone of cloth fragments on it?

And also regarding the NAA, a whole slew of new experts have come forward to descredit

In May 2007, a second paper appeared reporting on a chemical, forensic and statistical analysis of bullets derived from the same batch as those supposedly used by Oswald. The authors, Cliff Spiegelman, professor of statistics at Texas A&M and an expert in bullet lead analysis, William A. Tobin, the FBI's former Chief Forensic Metallurgist, William D. James, research chemist with the Texas A&M Center for Chemical Characterization and Analysis, and Stuart Wexler, brought considerable expertise to their study. As with Randich and Grant, they also concluded that, "evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed." They reported that, "many bullets within a box of Mannlicher-Carcano bullets have similar composition." Thus, it was not true, as Guinn had said, that such matches are extraordinarily rare

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/ind...tron_Activation_Analysis_Proves_Oswalds_Guilt

 

[Soily]

Let's express this as a line of reasoning.

P1: CE399 was not the bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

C: There was no single bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

Your conclusion wouldn't follow from your premise even if your premise were established (which it isn't).

Would you like to try that again, but coherently?

Dave

Mmm if you want to provide the evidence CE399 was the bullet then please do and this thread would be over. My point is really simple so I'll repeat it again for the hard of understanding. There is no evidence CE399 was the bullet found at parkland. There is no evidence CE399 was fired at Kennedy.