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Simpler Question About AGW

Tokenconservative said:
I don't do links--LIIIIINNNKKKKKSSSSSSSS!!!!

But here is the AGWist argument in a nutshell:

Climate is currently changing.
Human activity is responsible for that change.


Please help me out: if climate change now can only be because of human activity (if you deny that this is what AGWists are saying, then you are either being dishonest or ignorant), how can climate have changed in the past absent human activity?

Tokie
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Do you really believe what you are saying?
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
It is certainly not static nor is it determined entirely by humans. The climate changes and always has. We have been increasing in temperature since the last ice age and would continue to do so but at a very slow amount.

Human activity is not the only force at work and perhaps not even the most dominant in magnitude but it is one of the most rapid in changing the atmospheric composition. As such it has managed to push things to move faster than a natural system would alone. This is combined with the positive feedback that it can generate.

The actual magnitude is rather unimpressive in numeric terms. But that is overly simplistic and ignores that the change has been more rapid than from natural forces and that if it continues it could be very problematic.

I don't think there are any climatologists who will say that they are 100% certain what all the implications of global warming will be in absolute terms. However the fact that it is accelerating at an alarming level is universally agreed upon. Rising sea levels, climate destabalization and such are going to happen but the absolute results are not certain. We are best off keeping it as low as practically possible.
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Increasing temps since the last ice age...hmmm...does Algore know about this!??

Forces at work: that' s not the AGWist stance. They say that the DOMINANT factor is human activity. YOU may disagree with that (and good for you if you do) but that's their stance. And no, I don't have a link--LIIINNKKKKKK!!!--for that..nor do I have one that argues the sun rises in the east or that up is up and down is down.

Sorry.

Given that we know next to nothing about climate (as you admit) how do we, outside religious belief, "know" that the current rate of temp increase is "faster" than...anything?

AGWists are not suggesting we "keep looking at it." They are saying we need to ACT NOW!!!!! Mostly, this means crippling or (best hope) destroying the US economy...

Tokie
 
zeusbheld said:
right, but what "tokie" said was that the AGW 'believers' are making that claim. i have not seen ANY scientist claim that.

whereas



can any of you find ONE example of a paper claiming IN GENERAL, ONLY human activity can cause climate change?

that's hardly the "AGW stance" from what i've seen. if you sincerely believe it is, please provide specific, unequivocal examples.

how stupid do you think i, the marginally interested, undecided layman, am? wait don't answer that, it's obvious.

luckily for you, i am not basing my opinion on AGW on which side tries more ham-handedly to con me. are you sure you lot are not on the payroll of the pro-AGW crowd? you're doing a great job making "climate skeptics" look like snake oil salesmen (and rather poor ones at that).
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So you are denying that AGWists claim that human activity is responsible for "climate change."

Hmmm...

Will the sun rise in the east or the west this morning?

Tokie
 
Tokenconservative said:
So you are denying that AGWists claim that human activity is responsible for "climate change."

Hmmm...

Will the sun rise in the east or the west this morning?

Tokie
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Would you be at all interested in what "AGWists" actually think (or claim), or would you carry on believing the obvious falsehoods you started with?
 
zeusbheld said:
incidentally i'm on the fence on the climate change thing, so you can blow all your "religion of AGW" stuff out of your posterior. i'm not saying that AGW is happening, not saying it isn't. i AM saying that what i've seen of you so far, is a smoke-and-mirrors show. i'm not impressed and more than a little annoyed.
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Don't get too annoyed yet. You've only had a taster so far. ;)
 
Tokenconservative said:
I don't do links--LIIIIINNNKKKKKSSSSSSSS!!!!

But here is the AGWist argument in a nutshell:

Climate is currently changing.
Human activity is responsible for that change.


Please help me out: if climate change now can only be because of human activity (if you deny that this is what AGWists are saying, then you are either being dishonest or ignorant), how can climate have changed in the past absent human activity?

Tokie
Click to expand...

Sorry, there is no help for you. Climate scientists do not state that human activity is the only reason for climate change. They have expended a great deal of effort in extracting the human from the non-human inputs to climate change. You state you don't do links but presumably you do read them.

Solar insolation and volcanism.
 
volatile said:
You're mighty bad at reading for someone who used to be an English teacher.

Where do you get this nonsense from?
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One of the problems I find in this forum is this obtuse denial of reality...yes, amongst "climate scientists" none of them say this.

I am not talking about "climate scientists." I am talking about AGWists, the man on the street who believes Algore with all his heart and soul.

The "climate scientists" really don't matter. They are few in number and those few who do not toe the line are ignored in the media, and so their thoughts don't matter. Only those who are themselves True Believers in the One True Faith or simply going with the flow out of the abject but understandable fear they probably feel, or those trying to piggyback AGW to greater things by being loud champions of it get "face time" in the media and are paid attention to by the hoi palloi.

Now, you can dismiss this (and will) but the general "consensus" amongst that hoi palloi is that warming is happening and that human activity is the sole cause.

Tokie
 
TrueSceptic said:
Would you be at all interested in what "AGWists" actually think (or claim), or would you carry on believing the obvious falsehoods you started with?
Click to expand...

First, I already know what AGWists believe. Second, what you are doing now is begging the question...your intention is to provide me now with some climatologists' findings....unless the climatologist is named Al Gore, who cares?

Perception is reality and the Algore model is the perception.

Tokie
 
Acleron said:
Sorry, there is no help for you. Climate scientists do not state that human activity is the only reason for climate change. They have expended a great deal of effort in extracting the human from the non-human inputs to climate change. You state you don't do links but presumably you do read them.

Solar insolation and volcanism.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, um...is it YOU or ME who is confusing AGWist with "climate scientist"?

Can you point out where, in the post you quoted, where I say "climate scientists..."?

I'll wait.

Tokie
 
Tokenconservative said:
One of the problems I find in this forum is this obtuse denial of reality...yes, amongst "climate scientists" none of them say this.

I am not talking about "climate scientists." I am talking about AGWists, the man on the street who believes Algore with all his heart and soul.

The "climate scientists" really don't matter. They are few in number and those few who do not toe the line are ignored in the media, and so their thoughts don't matter. Only those who are themselves True Believers in the One True Faith or simply going with the flow out of the abject but understandable fear they probably feel, or those trying to piggyback AGW to greater things by being loud champions of it get "face time" in the media and are paid attention to by the hoi palloi.

Now, you can dismiss this (and will) but the general "consensus" amongst that hoi palloi is that warming is happening and that human activity is the sole cause.

Tokie
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The OP did not define who these "AGWists" are and you expected us to guess what your meaning was. Fine.

You now define them as ignorant lay persons who believe "Algore" with all their "heart and soul" (and yet manage to believe something very different to what he does).

Do you have any evidence that these people exist in significant numbers, or even at all, outside your imagination?
 
TrueSceptic said:
The OP did not define who these "AGWists" are and you expected us to guess what your meaning was. Fine.

You now define them as ignorant lay persons who believe "Algore" with all their "heart and soul" (and yet manage to believe something very different to what he does).

Do you have any evidence that these people exist in significant numbers, or even at all, outside your imagination?
Click to expand...

Sure, turn on any morning or nightly news program in the US.

Tokie
 
Tokenconservative said:
I'm sorry, um...is it YOU or ME who is confusing AGWist with "climate scientist"?

Can you point out where, in the post you quoted, where I say "climate scientists..."?

I'll wait.

Tokie
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It's you. I wasn't aware of your definition as you posted it after mine.
Cause and effect you know, like pumping CO2 into the atmosphere and warming it up.
 
Acleron said:
It's you. I wasn't aware of your definition as you posted it after mine.
Cause and effect you know, like pumping CO2 into the atmosphere and warming it up.
Click to expand...

Hmm...again, did you point out WHERE, exactly, I used the term "climate scientist"?

I misremember...

Tokie
 
zeusbheld said:
incidentally i'm on the fence on the climate change thing, so you can blow all your "religion of AGW" stuff out of your posterior. i'm not saying that AGW is happening, not saying it isn't. i AM saying that what i've seen of you so far, is a smoke-and-mirrors show. i'm not impressed and more than a little annoyed.
Click to expand...
Let me say this: when I first started looking into the whole global warming thing a few years ago, what I noticed most strongly and what probably convinced me as much as any of the evidence, is the fact that the anti-global warming crowd behaves EXACTLY like the creationist crowd. In fact, they are nearly identical to every other woo conspiracy theory group in their methods and general behavior. They quote out of context, attack strawmen, and come from a religious/political background that requires that they deny global warming. They have their own journals in which to publish their "work," just like the homeopaths, and make the same claims about a mainstream scientific conspiracy against them.

The scientific consensus on global warming could very well be completely wrong... but it won't make the denialists right. :cool:
 
Lets all sing, the wheels on the bus go round and round (thats where this argument is going).
 
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