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Simple Question About AGW

I could be wrong. You may not be a simpering fool. Perhaps you'd like to show us the mistake I made? This is high school chemistry, after all. Go ahead, genius, try it. :mad:

Wow, nice. I should engage with you now why exactly? You made a stupid post. Deal with it.

Just pointing out that Venus is very different than Earth. 90 atm will do a heck of a lot global warming and that's proven physics. If you want to do the calculations of what the Venusian equivalent temperature would be on Earth, you're welcome to do so. Show your work.

ETA: I couldn't help myself. I did it for you using the law of ideal gases (PV/T = PV/T). Setting P1 = 90 atm and P2 = 1 atm and both V's at unity and T1 = 733 K, T2 is 8.14 K. Now that's chilly! Venusians are trying to fit more CO2 into their atmosphere as we speak!
 
First of all, we are not school kids on the playground so leave the bullying at home.

You are the one who used an appeal to authority to a relative as if competence was inherited. Deal with it.

My point is you are applying the ideal gas law in an incorrect method.

That chalkboard is all yours, bobby. Show the class.

Second, the temperature of a planet has something to do with the atmospheric composition. As you know the earth is much warmer than 8K and has little He. I didn't post that the pressure causes the temperature.

You are again confabulating what I wrote. I said nothing about the Earth. Your claim is that the temperature of a given planet determines the composition of its atmosphere. Show us. Please post a scale of planet temperature vs atmospheric composition. Orgel, were he alive, would really have enjoyed your wisdom.

By the way, in a blatant appeal to self authority, I have taught college chemistry, so I might know something about the Ideal gas law. And here's the point, P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 applies to different states of the same system, where you can keep the n constant, such as in the piston and cylinder problems you no doubt are familiar with.

So have I, dude. So, show us your stuff. How much does 90 atm contribute to Venus' surface temp? Please don't let me detain you from showing off your prowess with physical chemistry, Teach.

Plugging in the different pressures for Earth and Venus and solving for temperature gives you an erroneous result.

It was back-of-the-envelope stuff. I could look up the correction factors for 90 atm, compressibiity, deviations from ideal parameter but, for what? You guys? Gimme a break.

So maybe I'm wrong about the about 1% part but the rest is true.

Kindly leave my recently departed parent out of this really you are a heel.

You opened the door, counselor. Take your lumps. I may be a heel but I didn't mention any of my accomplished forebears, of which I have many. I stand on my own feet. Try it.

Right, I was wrong. Actually the concentration is 2-4 parts per million. Still enough to cause the heating of the planet's internals.

You didn't quote the earlier part of the Wiki article that stated that melting was due to pressure, heat and expansive melting. Why is that? Maybe because you want to continue pulling "facts" out of your butt?

2-4 ppm is 0.0002 to 0.0004%. Most of the U is U-238 with a half-life of 4.5 x 10^9 years so its relatively stable. And here you are whining about my estimates. I have been up front about my calculations. You, on the other hand have dodged any type of truthfulness concerning your claims and expertise.

BTW, anyone who knows anything about radioactivity would know that the radioactivity in all the planet's radioactive nuclides is NOT enough to account for the molten core of the Earth. I find it sad that the AGW proponents on this thread were more than happy to jump at your moronic statements to bolster their biases. Another major vendor for a fool's paradise.
 
Wow, nice. I should engage with you now why exactly? You made a stupid post. Deal with it.

Because you claim to know more. Show us. Go ahead. The board is all yours. I've admitted all my assumptions. You show us how to do it. You said that my calculation was flawed so you must know something, right? Go ahead. Or maybe you don't? :eek:
 
You are the one who used an appeal to authority to a relative as if competence was inherited. Deal with it.
That chalkboard is all yours, bobby. Show the class.
Class pay attention. By the way the son of an astronomer was meant as a joke and a reference to a not so popular rock and roll song, so sorry it went over your head.
You are again confabulating what I wrote. I said nothing about the Earth. Your claim is that the temperature of a given planet determines the composition of its atmosphere. Show us. Please post a scale of planet temperature vs atmospheric composition. Orgel, were he alive, would really have enjoyed your wisdom.
My only claim was that a planet at 8k and 1 ATM would have an atmosphere of only Helium.
If you don't get that you flunk chem 101, unless you can name anything that would be gaseous at that temperature and pressure. can you?
So have I, dude. So, show us your stuff. How much does 90 atm contribute to Venus' surface temp? Please don't let me detain you from showing off your prowess with physical chemistry, Teach.
90 atm on venus contributes nothing to Venus's current temperature as any compressive heating from the rise to that pressure dissipated long ago.
It was back-of-the-envelope stuff. I could look up the correction factors for 90 atm, compressibiity, deviations from ideal parameter but, for what? You guys? Gimme a break.

Well, lets see some support for your argument

You opened the door, counselor. Take your lumps. I may be a heel but I didn't mention any of my accomplished forebears, of which I have many. I stand on my own feet. Try it.

It was meant as a joke dude.

You didn't quote the earlier part of the Wiki article that stated that melting was due to pressure, heat and expansive melting. Why is that? Maybe because you want to continue pulling "facts" out of your butt?

Right, the melting is due to the heat, gee where does the heat come from?


Here is the latest research

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725103.700
Bill McDonough of the University of Maryland in College Park said:
With time, as more antineutrinos are detected, KamLAND may be able to determine once and for all whether radioactivity is entirely responsible for heating Earth or whether other sources, such as the crystallisation of liquid iron and nickel in the outer core, also play a significant role. "[Detecting anti-neutrinos] is the way of the future in terms of hard numbers about the system," says McDonough.


2-4 ppm is 0.0002 to 0.0004%. Most of the U is U-238 with a half-life of 4.5 x 10^9 years so its relatively stable. And here you are whining about my estimates. I have been up front about my calculations. You, on the other hand have dodged any type of truthfulness concerning your claims and expertise.

I haven't dodged anything, and freely admitted my error.
And it's not your estimates that I am not whining about, it's the flaw in your PV/T thinking.

BTW, anyone who knows anything about radioactivity would know that the radioactivity in all the planet's radioactive nuclides is NOT enough to account for the molten core of the Earth. I find it sad that the AGW proponents on this thread were more than happy to jump at your moronic statements to bolster their biases. Another major vendor for a fool's paradise.

Like I posted above, someone elses research says different. 24 out of 30 to 44 terawatts is produced by radioactive decay.

Nice to see you can look up a nuclide's half-life.

Moronic statement, now backed up by published research in what peer reviewed journal?
Oh, Nature.

And again, thanks for the civil discourse and unneccessary ad homs.

And another appeal to self authority, 23 rem lifetime dose, I had better know a little about radioactivity.
 
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Yes, one of the assumptions I made. That the atmosphere would expand infinitely to render 1 atm. Good spot. How would you have done it?

Well, I'm neither a chemist nor a planetary scientist, but it seems to me that if we grant that n is relatively constant (the oceans are done evaporating, which would have increased n in the past), and we grant that Venus is hot and has high pressure, we need to determine what mechanisms now can cause this to be a stable system.

Heat radiates, so for the temperature of Venus to be constantly high because of pressure, then we need to find an external force that is applying pressure (increasing kinetic energy of the gas) by adding mechanical energy (such as pushing a piston into a cylinder), or we need to find a constant source of increasing n. n is not increasing to my knowledge, and Venus and its atmosphere is not getting smaller. So, there is no external force that is increasing pressure and balancing the heat radiating away from Venus.

However, Venus does have an external source of heat: the sun. Therefore, there is an external force that can provide heat energy. If the greenhouse gas theory is correct, the composition of Venus' atmosphere (primarily greenhouse gases) and the incident radiation should cause a high temperature. The temperature of the gas is a measure of its kinetic energy, and its high kinetic energy results in high pressure. This is what we observe.

So, given the available external forces, it seems to me that the high temperature is caused by the greenhouse effect, and the high pressure follows due to the physics of gases. I do not think that there is a mechanism in place where the high stable temperature is the result of high pressure.
 
Please explain to Alric what a litmus test is.
Why? I'm sure he knows.

To be honest, we've been enduring relentless ad hom attacks, many quite vicious, since the first day I joined this forum. No apology is forthcoming as his ignoramus first response is typical.
Really? From what I've seen it is your "side" that is first with the insults. Perhaps you have a few examples?

Now, what is the litmus test for AGW? Since oceans cover ~70% of earth's surface, they must warm annually in order for global warming to be present as it is claimed the sun's energy is essentially constant.
Claimed? Why not look at the figures? They are easily available.

Next, it must be explained why the troposphere is not warming as global climate models dictate.
You could try reading this.

If CO2 is "trapping" all this heat, where has it gone and where is it going now?
Just how simple do you imagine this is?
 
http://www.skepticalscience.com/

Its a great site! Its scary to see all their points taken care of by someone else:

Contrarians.png


I propose letting the site deal with them.
 
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Yes, I am. I find that you'll find that little quirk in most scientists. If you keep volume constant and increase pressure, you get a temperature increase. Is that news to you?
CD's response is puzzling me too. Surely everyone knows (about) Boyle's Law?
 
If you compress a gas it will get hotter. The work expended in compressing it is converted into heat. Leave it compressed and that heat will dissipate. Venus's atmosphere has been compressed long enough for all the heat of its original compression to have dissipated long ago.

Pressure does not create heat.
This is making sense now, thanks.
 
I propose letting the site deal with them.

These are not claims, but specific alternate considerations made in response to claims made by the pro-climate change camp. They are not meant to be taken in aggregate.

A pro-AGW person makes an absolute claim. Someone who doesn't agree with that claim offers a possible alternate explanation that can equally explain the phenomenon observed. This is boiled down to a graphic. And, it is done so disingenuously as a compilation of arguments against specific claims made by pro-AGW arguers only to appear that there is no rhyme or reason to those counter-arguments.

As I've said before, this is sound-bite b.s. that doesn't elucidate the relevance of the counter-arguments, but is meant in a more political sense to dissuade dissent and make people believe that there is no legitimacy in alternate hypotheses. Not all people making counter-arguments use all of these all the time, and some on that list are definitely legitimate in response to specific and ridiculous claims being made by pro-AGWs.

But, as you guys would have it, the issue is resolved. Man-made CO2 is forcing the climate to change. We are beyond all shadow of doubt responsible. We've amassed enough data. We understand everything we need to know at this point in time about what drives the climate change. And, we'd better start acting before we cause irrevocable damage to the planet.

How hubristic.

-Dr. Imago
 
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This is boiled down to a graphic.

But, as you guys would have it, the issue is resolved. Man-made CO2 is forcing the climate to change. We are beyond all shadow of doubt responsible. We've amassed enough data. We understand everything we need to know at this point in time about what drives the climate change. And, we'd better start acting before we cause irrevocable damage to the planet.

How hubristic.

-Dr. Imago

The point you make about the graphic is precisely my main criticism of the contrarians. There is no data that supports their claims. Only solipsisms and arguments from lack of knowledge. I try to answer every point with data.

On the latter point it is never that black and white but enough data is in to keep an eye on the process and take necessary steps. Is it going to kill you to drive a Prius and use fluorescent bulbs? Will it destroy the economy to use more solar and wind power rather than oil?

Changes like those are not only beneficial with regards to climate change but also they will improve society and policy. And will be of economic benefit to everyone, not just the oil companies.
 
:confused: That's a real diamond of a thought. You must have missed that class.



You must have missed that class also. A little thought experiment for you. If you have a compressed gas cylinder at room temperature and you knock the valve off with a sledge, will the cylinder heat, stay the same or cool? Duh. There goes your half-baked argument.

I told you to study up on your thermo, yes? Why didn't you do it before making a complete fool out of yourself?
If you are right, how can the gas cyl be at room temp to start with? Surely it should be above ambient due to the higher pressure?

When you remove the valve, it cools because the volume increases and the pressure decreases. But I thought you were talking about constant volume?
 
Irrelevant. Venus has never decompressed. If you don't knock the valve off the cylinder any heat generated during compression will dissipate. Entropy increases. Venus's atmosphere accumulated long ago, and the heat of compression has dissipated.



Cute.

So are you still under the impression that pressure creates heat?
Perhaps he's confusing temperature with heat?
 
And it's not your estimates that I am not whining about, it's the flaw in your PV/T thinking.

Correct it or be quiet about it.

And again, thanks for the civil discourse and unneccessary ad homs.

Oh, any time, big fella! Your jokes suck. Keep your day job.

And another appeal to self authority, 23 rem lifetime dose, I had better know a little about radioactivity.

I've been breathing gases all my life.
 
If you are right, how can the gas cyl be at room temp to start with? Surely it should be above ambient due to the higher pressure?

When you remove the valve, it cools because the volume increases and the pressure decreases. But I thought you were talking about constant volume?

I was originally trying to demonstrate that the high pressure on Venus is contributive to the temperature. Now, I've been tarred with predicting the surface of the Earth would be 8 K because it is so similar to Venus. One can't win with people who refuse to listen.
 

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