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Simple Question About AGW

How about this: you provide evidence that GISS/NOAA is the the more accurate data set over HadCRU. Better still, provide a peer reviewed study that supports your view that GISS is in fact accurate. Or, why is GISS so much different than HadCRU?
I assume this is rhetorical. Are the differences that great, and are the reasons not well known anyway?

This is quite amusing. Are you folks blind or something? Record cold, snow and ice throughout the NH? Why aren't you posting news articles about that?
It's amusing that you use this classic fallacy. Weather is not climate and one unusually cold (or mild) winter proves nothing. If it proves to be the start of a trend, then we will have something.
 
Originally Posted by mhaze
Okay, I've now ploughed through a couple of pages of that, and I'm quitting at this comment -
raypierre said... It's good that somebody corrected the algebra error in Eli's exposition
No offense, but it looks like...well, how shall I put it....amateurs. It'd be nice if people really, really checked their math before posting it. These guys are batting back and forth basic algebra and can't get it right.



So you know of people that never make mistakes? Did you spot the error? Note how readily the mistake is admitted, and also note the rest of the quote, which you snipped to give a misleading impression.

Well, yes I did spot the error Tamino made. Note the general thrust of my comment please. I simply found reading more to likely be a waste of time. So how can that be a misleading impression?

Oh, by the way - Tamino projects a misleading impression of the paper in question. I suppose you didn't notice that since you read predigested Tamino pap, not the actual peer reviewed scientific article.
 
How about this: you provide evidence that GISS/NOAA is the the more accurate data set over HadCRU. Better still, provide a peer reviewed study that supports your view that GISS is in fact accurate. Or, why is GISS so much different than HadCRU?

This is quite amusing. Are you folks blind or something? Record cold, snow and ice throughout the NH? Why aren't you posting news articles about that?

The amusing thing to anyone who goes and looks at the data is that the HadCRU warming trend is greater than the GISS one. And yet still people come out with accusations of fraud aginst GISS. It's laughable and just shows that you are not paying attention.
 
Well, yes I did spot the error Tamino made. Note the general thrust of my comment please. I simply found reading more to likely be a waste of time. So how can that be a misleading impression?

Oh, by the way - Tamino projects a misleading impression of the paper in question. I suppose you didn't notice that since you read predigested Tamino pap, not the actual peer reviewed scientific article.

You mean Rabett surely? Oh my gosh you made a mistake!11!1eleventyone!!11
 
Well, yes I did spot the error Tamino made.
Note the general thrust of my comment please. I simply found reading more to likely be a waste of time. So how can that be a misleading impression?
IOW you stop reading when you get to something that you don't like? Your snipped quote was clearly intended to suggest a false impression of the author's position.

Oh, by the way - Tamino projects a misleading impression of the paper in question. I suppose you didn't notice that since you read predigested Tamino pap, not the actual peer reviewed scientific article.
I read "predigested Tamino pap"? You have no idea what I read. With that sort of charm you are bound to win me over, aren't you? ;)
 
The amusing thing to anyone who goes and looks at the data is that the HadCRU warming trend is greater than the GISS one. And yet still people come out with accusations of fraud aginst GISS. It's laughable and just shows that you are not paying attention.
"Not paying attention" is far too kind.
 
IOW you stop reading when you get to something that you don't like?

Yes, if its page after page of uncertainty about high school level pre calculus.

Yes, a way to win people over was to suggest that they read the actual scientific articles instead of "predigested pap", in this case, by Tamino. But I'll say the same for other subjects or views.

Your other comment, about "they're all part of the AGW conspiracy so it doesn't matter which one we attack" is nonsense. Sometimes the technical articles are hard to understand and it is good to have bloggers who interpret them in simpler language. Tamino does this, so does D'Aleo at www.icecap.us. Many others. When may it be called "pre digested pap"?

Well, therein you have my interpretation of the analysis by Tamino of the article in question.
 
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Yes, if its page after page of uncertainty about high school level pre calculus.

Yes, a way to win people over was to suggest that they read the actual scientific articles instead of "predigested pap", in this case, by Tamino. But I'll say the same for other subjects or views.

Your other comment, about "they're all part of the AGW conspiracy so it doesn't matter which one we attack" is nonsense.
Of course. It was meant to be.

Sometimes the technical articles are hard to understand and it is good to have bloggers who interpret them in simpler language. Tamino does this, so does D'Aleo at www.icecap.us. Many others. When may it be called "pre digested pap"?
You tell me. It's your choice of words.

Well, therein you have my interpretation of the analysis by Tamino of the article in question.
Was is Rabett or Tamino?
 
Odin help me, this is the least subtle, most inane cherry-pick I've ever seen.

Time to think Varwoche. There are no trend lines, no R2 statistics. It is your side that beats the drum of "record" temps, so with 1998 being the "record" temp, it only stands to reason to view as the baseline for the current discussion.

It was Met O and others who predicted 2007 was the beginning of "record" temps exceeding 1998. I am simply showing it is going in the opposite sign.

It is Megaladon going off the deep end about trying to prove every last .01 deg of warming trend with the idiotic graphs.

Megaladon claimed I said 2007 was going to be much cooler than 2006, yet cannot provide the post where I said it. That's because I never said it. Shall I now call Megaladon a liar? Isn't that the MO?

What is it you cannot see? 2006/2007 was El Nino and it was supposedly going to rival 1998. AGW was going to kick in finally and provide ever upward temperatures. It didn't happen and is 180 from what the "experts" predicted.

It's the same with the hurricane predictions. I've already cataloged the numerous NewdScientist hyped articles about that. It's there for all to see.

Now the unlicensed software engineers have scrambled to come up with 'new and improved' climate models they promise will be correct in the next few years. The gullible warmers buy into this malarkey; it's quite interesting to watch.

We have posted links on numerous occasions concerning issues with UHI and warming bias in the surface station network, yet were ignored. Now fsol suddenly finds it necessary to request it? Go look it up yourselves.

You need to answer the following question: why is GISS diverged so far from HadCRU and others?
 
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=2703#more-2703

And Tamino thinks all is well with GISS.

Use HadCRU if you want but it shows a greater rate of temperature rise than GISS does.

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/giss-ncdc-hadcru/

From Climateaudit

Yes, I am estimating the amount of estimation. It was either that or scrape the data off GISS, and frankly I don’t have the patience for that.

What a great job of auditing he has done there. So on a quick skim of his post, he is estimating the amount of estimation that takes place and then saying that too much estimation takes place.
 
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Steve McIntyre: Yes, I am estimating the amount of estimation. It was either that or scrape the data off GISS, and frankly I don’t have the patience for that.

FSOL: What a great job of auditing he has done there. So on a quick skim of his post, he is estimating the amount of estimation that takes place and then saying that too much estimation takes place.
Cynicism noted.

That event may have occurred after one of the times that GISS banned his IP from their servers.
 
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In short, you have no refutation to offer.

I don't know that I can refute a Torygraph article to your satisfaction, but I'll give it a shot.

"Henrik Svensmark, a weather scientist at the Danish National Space Centre who led the team behind the research, believes that the planet is experiencing a natural period of low cloud cover due to fewer cosmic rays entering the atmosphere.

This, he says, is responsible for much of the global warming we are experiencing. "

Cosmic rays are directly measured, and have been since the 50's. There's no observed decrease (or increase) in cosmic rays. In light of that, Svensmark's staetment is a little surprising.

"
Mr Svensmark last week published the first experimental evidence from five years' research on the influence that cosmic rays have on cloud production in the Proceedings of the Royal Society Journal A: Mathematical, Physical and Engineering Sciences. This week he will also publish a fuller account of his work in a book entitled The Chilling Stars: A New Theory of Climate Change."

As I recall, this was something along the lines of how to use a cloud-chamber. It's hard to see how he could have performed an experiment on any larger scale - in the real atmosphere, for instance - so its relevance remains questionable in the real world.

"
A team of more than 60 scientists from around the world are preparing to conduct a large-scale experiment using a particle accelerator in Geneva, Switzerland, to replicate the effect of cosmic rays hitting the atmosphere.

They hope this will prove whether this deep space radiation is responsible for changing cloud cover. If so, it could force climate scientists to re-evaluate their ideas about how global warming occurs."

The words and wisdom of a Torygraph science corresponent. The scientists involved are not "hoping" to "prove" anything. They're going to conduct another lab-experiment and see what comes up.


Svensmark's argument seems (from what I've seen) to be about cosmic rays creating nucleation sites, not about whether those nucleation sites actually lead to more clouds. That's only going to happen if the atmosphere isn't already saturated with nucleation sites, taking into consideration temperature and relative humidity. Which is to say, it will only influence near-saturated air.

' Giles Harrison, a cloud specialist at Reading University said that he had carried out research on cosmic rays and their effect on clouds, but believed the impact on climate is much smaller than Mr Svensmark claims.
Mr Harrison said: "I have been looking at cloud data going back 50 years over the UK and found there was a small relationship with cosmic rays. It looks like it creates some additional variability in a natural climate system but this is small." '

A small relationship, and no mention of a trend in that quote. "Variablility" works both ways, and doesn't necessarily involve a trend.


Svensmark's hypothesis involves several assumptions. That there's been a reduction in cosmic rays - which there hasn't during the current warming period. That there's been a decrease in global cloud-cover - which I've yet to see any evidence for.

AAnd a third assumption is that cloud-cover has an overall cooling effect, but opinion's still divided on that. It has a cooling effect by increasing albedo, but that only operates during day-time; it has a warming effect day and night. The cosmic rays are coming in day and night as well, of course.

Night-time (and winter) warming has been more rapid than day-time and summer warming, which would be an odd result were increased insolation behind the warming.

As an alternative explanation for the current warming period Svensmark's hypothesis is shaky at best.
 
It was Met O and others who predicted 2007 was the beginning of "record" temps exceeding 1998. I am simply showing it is going in the opposite sign.

Incorrect.

The Met Office predicted that 2007 would be warmer than 1998 if the El Nino conditions of January 2007 continued (they didn't, and we ended the year with La Nina conditions). That would not imply that later years - without an El Nino - would be warmer than 1998. The warming anomoly during El Nino's is well known (consider 1998, for instance). The next extended El Nino will, of course, result in a warmer year (or years) than 1998 because the El Nino effect is starting from a higher base.

Some guys at the Hadley Centre have used a model to predict stable temperatures up to 2009, then a more rapid warming afterward, with one-in-two years being warmer than 1998.

It's a bold prediction. We'll see whether they're right over the next two-to-seven years.
 
Time to think Varwoche. There are no trend lines, no R2 statistics. It is your side that beats the drum of "record" temps, so with 1998 being the "record" temp, it only stands to reason to view as the baseline for the current discussion.

[snip]

It is Megaladon going off the deep end about trying to prove every last .01 deg of warming trend with the idiotic graphs.

Do you want trend lines or not?

Megaladon claimed I said 2007 was going to be much cooler than 2006, yet cannot provide the post where I said it. That's because I never said it. Shall I now call Megaladon a liar? Isn't that the MO?

More to the point, did you say it or not?

Now the unlicensed software engineers have scrambled to come up with 'new and improved' climate models they promise will be correct in the next few years. The gullible warmers buy into this malarkey; it's quite interesting to watch.

It is. Let's see if they're right over the next two-to-seven years. It'll be a bit hard to put it down to luck if they are.

We have posted links on numerous occasions concerning issues with UHI and warming bias in the surface station network, yet were ignored. Now fsol suddenly finds it necessary to request it? Go look it up yourselves.

Do you have anything on why the biased trend has gone away during this recent period of non-warming of which you speak? Urbanisation goes on apace since 1998, after all, and land-use change generally has been extensive over that period.

You need to answer the following question: why is GISS diverged so far from HadCRU and others?

It isn't.
 

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