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Simple climate change refutation challenge

The point is to test them! Do not make the assumption that all correlations are false because some are not true. In science most testable hypotheses begin with an observed correlation that is then proven correct or incorrect by experimentation or further observation.

The link you provided discusses how ice core measurements are not exactly comparable to direct measurements. This is not surprising but can be compensated for, something the author doesn't do.

The graphs I linked do not involve ice cores, btw. Most are direct measurements from Mauna Loa.

Put aside the specifics, the issue I have is with data treatment.

You posted a chart of two line. One squiggly ane smooth. One seemingly exponential, the other seemingly a stochastic trend of some sort.

You implied they were powerful evidence that the two processes underlying the data were phyisically linked in a causal relationship.

I questioned whether they did that at all, given that they are just to lines and that a more thorough statistical treatment (test properly for corellation at a minimum) is needed before we can say they are anything other than two lines.

You then said "With data like that absolutes do just fine. Corellations have been done elsewhere"

Then I said. absolutes aren't just fine, we need to see evidence of proper non-spurious corellation.

Now YOU are telling me that the point is to test them for corellation. :confused:

See? I said, you need to test them for correlation and you said no you don't. Now you are telling me the whole point is to test them. You can see how I am confused.

And the ice core issue is not what I was talking about. The salient point was that long run CO2 series are composites of different data series and types of measurement, which on closer inspection may not in fact be compatible with each other (i.e. they can't be spliced together to form one series). I don't know if that is the case with your chart, but when I searched for the source data it only gave Mauna Loa data which starts in 1959 and the chart starts around 1880ish.
 
Right. The data says there is climate change and is likely C02. The challenge to those that disagree is to show data as powerful as the graphs in the OP.


"The" data may do that.

Your charts do not. That is the point of this thread.
 
Put aside the specifics, the issue I have is with data treatment.

You posted a chart of two line. One squiggly ane smooth. One seemingly exponential, the other seemingly a stochastic trend of some sort.

None are exponential. The C02 is absolute measurements the temp is temperature change from average.

You implied they were powerful evidence that the two processes underlying the data were phyisically linked in a causal relationship.

Yes. The fact that C02 is a greenhouse gas. As in physical property.

You then said "With data like that absolutes do just fine. Corellations have been done elsewhere"

Then I said. absolutes aren't just fine, we need to see evidence of proper non-spurious corellation.

Now YOU are telling me that the point is to test them for corellation. :confused:

Experimental correlation, not statistical. If you can show me something that correlates better than C02 I'm all for it.

Finally, not all data is from Mauna Loa but none of it is ice cores. It includes direct measurements from other places. The measurements from Mauna Loa alone are scarier still:

co2_data_mlo.png
 
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We're still not on the same page here.

As a form of evidence of, whatever, the OP shows two lines that may have no relationship at all. You can go on for days about what they represent and why they "should" be linked, but you stated in the OP that the chart was self contained evidence (powerful evidence) in itself. So let's confine ourselves to the data presented, that was the clear requirement of the OP.

Thanks for the chart. That is what I was talking about. The one in the OP starts in 1880, the Mauna Loa starts in 1959. I was wondering about 1880-1958.

ETA.

And can you define what you mean when you say "experimental" versus "statistical" correlation. I don't know what you mean there.
 
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None are exponential. The C02 is absolute measurements the temp is temperature change from average.

Yes. The fact that C02 is a greenhouse gas. As in physical property.

Experimental correlation, not statistical. If you can show me something that correlates better than C02 I'm all for it.

Finally, not all data is from Mauna Loa but none of it is ice cores. It includes direct measurements from other places. The measurements from Mauna Loa alone are scarier still:

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ccgg/trends/co2_data_mlo.png

Scarier?

Actually, you are not the first person to pose this challenge. I've posted it in reverse numerous times.

So I presume you are taking up my challenge #1 and #3?

Unanswered Questions and Challenges

1. A challenge for AGW believers to cite a scientific atmospheric study that provided empirical evidence of the hypothesized greenhouse effects of CO2 in the atmosphere.

2. This is a link to a summary of Singer's theory of the 1,500 year climate cycle, excerpted from his book. Debunk Singer's core theory, of the 1,500 year climate cycle.

3. Can a AGW believer show correlation or causation, or any relationship, between global temperature and global atmospheric CO2 levels?
 
Again, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. If its concentration goes up so does the greenhouse effect. This is a physical property.

I'll be happy to review Singer's claim. Can you point to where its published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The onus is on you to dispprove the scientific consensus and interpretation of the data.
 
Alric:

I am not convinced by your graphs......

The temperature anomaly plot you have provided shows a slight LOWERING of the average temperature between 1940 and 1970 don't you think?

The CO2 concentration shows no such effect!
 
I don't have a graph handy, but I found this article quite interesting.

ETA: An excerpt:
Mr Svensmark last week published the first experimental evidence from five years' research on the influence that cosmic rays have on cloud production in the Proceedings of the Royal Society Journal A: Mathematical, Physical and Engineering Sciences. This week he will also publish a fuller account of his work in a book entitled The Chilling Stars: A New Theory of Climate Change.

A team of more than 60 scientists from around the world are preparing to conduct a large-scale experiment using a particle accelerator in Geneva, Switzerland, to replicate the effect of cosmic rays hitting the atmosphere.

They hope this will prove whether this deep space radiation is responsible for changing cloud cover. If so, it could force climate scientists to re-evaluate their ideas about how global warming occurs.

Mr Svensmark's results show that the rays produce electrically charged particles when they hit the atmosphere. He said: "These particles attract water molecules from the air and cause them to clump together until they condense into clouds."
 
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Again, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. If its concentration goes up so does the greenhouse effect. This is a physical property.

I'll be happy to review Singer's claim. Can you point to where its published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The onus is on you to dispprove the scientific consensus and interpretation of the data.


Greenhouse theory predicts a "hot spot' as below shown in the mid tropics at medium altitudes (this is the concentrated effect of your theory of CO2 causation of temperature change). This additional heat then circulates toward the poles, according to standard greenhouse theory. -


That "hot spot" doesn't seem to be there....

Any other questions?
 
Apollo: if you look closely at that point the atmospheric CO2 concentration had not risen exponentially yet.

To all else: Like many other issues in science there is a clear consensus along with side debates. The consensus is that anthropogenic CO2 plays a central role in climate change. There are other factors whose partial significance should be studied and characterized without losing sight of the major players.

I think the problem with bringing up the side debates so frequently is that they appear to be misdirection on the part of contrarians. The same happens, although more obvious to me since I am a biologist, with the intelligent design/evolution "debate". The contrarians bring up "points" that are out of context, simplistic or just plain wrong to argue that "knowledge is incomplete and therefore other theories are valid". This same strategy is used by climate change contrarians.

In the meanwhile I have not seen data of substance to contradict the assertion in the OP.
__________________
 
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Just trying to compartmentalize the discussions. Suffice it to say I think the consequences of not reducing the effects of climate change will be more expensive and damaging to the environment than not doing anything.

Reducing C02 output will not only mitigate climate change but is also a business opportunity that will be of great economic benefit. It just happens that it will not benefit oil companies. I'm fine with that. However, this is a problem for certain political groups and is the attitude I would like to change.


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA! Good one! Why not try to get more Scientology believers too?
 
Apollo: if you look closely at that point the atmospheric CO2 concentration had not risen exponentially yet.

To all else: Like many other issues in science there is a clear consensus along with side debates. The consensus is that anthropogenic CO2 plays a central role in climate change. There are other factors whose partial significance should be studied and characterized without losing sight of the major players.

I think the problem with bringing up the side debates so frequently is that they appear to be misdirection on the part of contrarians. The same happens, although more obvious to me since I am a biologist, with the intelligent design/evolution "debate". The contrarians bring up "points" that are out of context, simplistic or just plain wrong to argue that "knowledge is incomplete and therefore other theories are valid". This same strategy is used by climate change contrarians.

In the meanwhile I have not seen data of substance to contradict the assertion in the OP.
__________________


Is anyone else here looking for "believers" with no regard for the obvious?
 
Alric,
How do you know the scaling is correct in your graph? Is it for effect?
Why shouldn't it look like this?




Out of curiosity, last year I threw together a chart using UAH satellite and Mauno Loa CO2 data. The temps are deg C change per year. CO2 is ppm change per year. The axis is done to allow a close up view of what exactly is going on with the otherwise "zipper" like trend line that is normally shown.

Here are the results:



What is driving what?

P.S. The onus is on you to provide evidence to support the hypothesis you are proposing.
 
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Alric,
How do you know the scaling is correct in your graph? Is it for effect?
Why shouldn't it look like this?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_10323474e3e528a4cf.jpg


Out of curiosity, last year I threw together a chart using UAH satellite and Mauno Loa CO2 data. The temps are deg C change per year. CO2 is ppm change per year. The axis is done to allow a close up view of what exactly is going on with the otherwise "zipper" like trend line that is normally shown.

Here are the results:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032346f9398871550.jpg

What is driving what?


From the graphs in the OP I clearly and decisively conclude one of the following cause and effect relationships -
  1. CO2 drives temp
  2. CO2 has no relation to temp
  3. temp drives CO2
  4. Any or all of (1,2,3) dispersed in time sequence
  5. Any or all of (1,2,3,4) fractionally and simultaneously contributing to an effect
  6. Any or all of (1,2,3,4,5) negating the effect of other partial subsets of (1,2,3,4,5) simultaneously yet with temporal lags and branching secondary and further tertiaries yielding recursive yet plausible networks of interacting nodes with lateral arabesque dancing on minutae.
Okay, okay, I am jesting....

No, really, I'm not.
 
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Alric,
How do you know the scaling is correct in your graph? Is it for effect?
Why shouldn't it look like this?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032347ad46afa041d.jpg[/qimg]


Out of curiosity, last year I threw together a chart using UAH satellite and Mauno Loa CO2 data. The temps are deg C change per year. CO2 is ppm change per year. The axis is done to allow a close up view of what exactly is going on with the otherwise "zipper" like trend line that is normally shown.

Here are the results:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032346f9398871550.jpg[/qimg]


What is driving what?

P.S. The onus is on you to provide evidence to support the hypothesis you are proposing.

Two questions about your graphs:

Firstly: Why are you plotting rates of change in CO2 concentration and temperature?

Plotting rates of change will exaggerate noise in a signal, especially if there are known oscillations. El Niño, and La Nina affect affect the distribution of temperature, so you would expect to see a quasiperiodic fluctuation in the rate of change of temperature, with a roughly biannual frequency.

If you want to remove noise, you integrate the signal, not differentiate it.


Secondly: Why are you only plotting a ten-year trend which is less than a single sunspot cycle, which also affects the weather?

I'll give an examople of what I mean by integration:

Here is the average temperature in central England, as it is the longest running set of direct temperature measurements.

1449447ad7af021290.png


It looks quite noisy, but you might notice that there are fewer low temperatures towards the end of the twentieth century.

However there is a very nice technique in statistical process control, called the cusum. Here is a somewhat simplified discussion:

You can take the long term average (mean) of the data, and the difference of each point from this LTA, then you can add all these difference up and plot how the difference changes with time. If a region is flat, it is running at the LTA; if climbing, it is running above; if falling, it is running below.

Over the entire dataset, the final cusum value will be zero as the total sum above the mean will be equal to the total sum below. If a parameter is increasing, then at the beginning, the data will be below the LTA, so the cusum will fall, then it will pass through the LA, and be roughly flat, and then it will be running above the LTA, so will increase, and the converse for a decreasing process. If the cusum keps crossing the zero point, then there is no trend.

Changes in gradient indicate a change in the process mean.


Here is the cusum for the same data as before:

1449447ad7aa11c333.png


Now there is no reason to choose the LTA as the "target" value, it is just that this will always add up to zero.

If you choose a different target value, you can see whether the process was ever running at this particular value

Here is an example:
1449447ad7aa1b774e.png


You can see that the rtemperatures were running about 0.092°C below the historic LTA for most of the 19th century, before increasing around 1900.

You can also see that a few years after starting, there was a cooler period that ended around about 1700. There is a slight increase in gradient sometime in the 20th century, which is hard to see. However it is clearer on an expanded scale, and with a different target:

1449447ad80ec930f4.png


There was a change between 1960 and 1970, and the average temperature is now running about 0.8°C above the historic LTA, and seems to be increasing again...

The point about this is that, although the data looks noisy, integrating this data can still show trends. Differentiating the raw data will highlight noise.

ETA: Of course an oscillating process will also repetedly cross the zero line
 
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Two questions about your graphs:

Firstly: Why are you plotting rates of change in CO2 concentration and temperature?

Plotting rates of change will exaggerate noise in a signal, especially if there are known oscillations. El Niño, and La Nina affect affect the distribution of temperature, so you would expect to see a quasiperiodic fluctuation in the rate of change of temperature, with a roughly biannual frequency.

If you want to remove noise, you integrate the signal, not differentiate it.


Secondly: Why are you only plotting a ten-year trend which is less than a single sunspot cycle, which also affects the weather?

I'll give an examople of what I mean by integration:

Here is the average temperature in central England, as it is the longest running set of direct temperature measurements.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad7af021290.png[/qimg]

It looks quite noisy, but you might notice that there are fewer low temperatures towards the end of the twentieth century.

However there is a very nice technique in statistical process control, called the cusum. Here is a somewhat simplified discussion:

You can take the long term average (mean) of the data, and the difference of each point from this LTA, then you can add all these difference up and plot how the difference changes with time. If a region is flat, it is running at the LTA; if climbing, it is running above; if falling, it is running below.

Over the entire dataset, the final cusum value will be zero as the total sum above the mean will be equal to the total sum below. If a parameter is increasing, then at the beginning, the data will be below the LTA, so the cusum will fall, then it will pass through the LA, and be roughly flat, and then it will be running above the LTA, so will increase, and the converse for a decreasing process. If the cusum keps crossing the zero point, then there is no trend.

Changes in gradient indicate a change in the process mean.


Here is the cusum for the same data as before:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad7aa11c333.png[/qimg]

Now there is no reason to choose the LTA as the "target" value, it is just that this will always add up to zero.

If you choose a different target value, you can see whether the process was ever running at this particular value

Here is an example:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad7aa1b774e.png[/qimg]

You can see that the rtemperatures were running about 0.092°C below the historic LTA for most of the 19th century, before increasing around 1900.

You can also see that a few years after starting, there was a cooler period that ended around about 1700. There is a slight increase in gradient sometime in the 20th century, which is hard to see. However it is clearer on an expanded scale, and with a different target:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/1449447ad80ec930f4.png[/qimg]

There was a change between 1960 and 1970, and the average temperature is now running about 0.8°C above the historic LTA, and seems to be increasing again...

The point about this is that, although the data looks noisy, integrating this data can still show trends. Differentiating the raw data will highlight noise.

ETA: Of course an oscillating process will also repetedly cross the zero line

A good exposition jimbob. It gets back to the OP.

Of course the balance needed is extracting the trend or signal from the data as you rightly point out, but when trying to show two data series are linked somehow (as in the OP) you need to be careful you don't pick spurious corellations.

So, we have:

  • failing to present data in a way that identifies valid(!) trends risks mistaken conclusions brought by confusing noise with signal, or trend.
  • Using trends, or signals, naively can lead to lead to mistaken conclusions by finding spurious corellation.

The OP is at risk of the latter, hence those two plots are not in themselves "powerful evidence" of anything
 
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Greenhouse theory predicts a "hot spot' as below shown in the mid tropics at medium altitudes (this is the concentrated effect of your theory of CO2 causation of temperature change). This additional heat then circulates toward the poles, according to standard greenhouse theory. -
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1422446dae9084f326.png

That "hot spot" doesn't seem to be there....

Any other questions?

So there is no greenhouse effect? That is hardly credible.

Nice of you to provide sources for your data btw. That way we can all audit...oh wait, you didn't.
 
Greenhouse theory predicts a "hot spot' as below shown in the mid tropics at medium altitudes (this is the concentrated effect of your theory of CO2 causation of temperature change). This additional heat then circulates toward the poles, according to standard greenhouse theory. -
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1422446dae9084f326.png[/qimg]

That "hot spot" doesn't seem to be there....

Any other questions?
The OP is about global average temperatures. How is this relevant?
 
Alric,
How do you know the scaling is correct in your graph? Is it for effect?
Why shouldn't it look like this?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032347ad46afa041d.jpg[/qimg]


Out of curiosity, last year I threw together a chart using UAH satellite and Mauno Loa CO2 data. The temps are deg C change per year. CO2 is ppm change per year. The axis is done to allow a close up view of what exactly is going on with the otherwise "zipper" like trend line that is normally shown.

Here are the results:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032346f9398871550.jpg[/qimg]


What is driving what?

P.S. The onus is on you to provide evidence to support the hypothesis you are proposing.
The graphs in the OP start at 1880. Why are you showing graphs showing only the last few years?
 

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