Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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Some comments on Noll's interview.

1- Gear & field activities.
I disagree on some of his lines of reasoning. Gear is only a hindrance for inexperienced people. Experience will help you to choose the gear that's better suited for your task. He seems to consider the "less is the best", thus helping explain the failure to obtain reliable evidence such as good images. I partially disagree. An experienced outdoorsman/woman will be able to carry a nice variety of photographic gear plus material for sampling collection. Not to mention only fools wander alone in the woods, thus increasing the amount of cargo. And carrying a well balanced backpack plus a shoot-ready cam is by no means impossible neither will make an experienced person noisy enough to scare wildlife away.
Searching for wildlife is not just wandering around the woods. It’s choosing the most likely places where the animals will sooner or longer pass, getting yourself in to a hidden comfortable position with your gear ready and wait. Have no time for that? Game cams are available.
I do not think explanations involving bigfeet's alleged higher intelligence (when compared with other animals) and über stealthiness are anywhere near of being convincing.

2- Keeping data from other researchers.
Well, by one side I can understand his POV regarding keeping information. Exposing exact research locations may create problems. Archeologists, geologists, paleontologists and biologists quite often do the same, since some sites can be (intentionally or not) ruined by people not familiarized with the work or willing to make profit out of it. Data from still ongoing research may also be kept "locked" until a better evaluation is carried out, for obvious reasons. I can't help but getting the impression that there is a lot of rivalry between organizations and individuals. This is usually not a good thing. Healthy competition is OK and desirable, but I have the impression of seeing true feuds.
On the other hand, keeping data away (or showing it only to the chosen ones) might create a bad impression. One can't help but thinking maybe there's nothing truly important there at all.

3- My questions regarding Skookum cast.
I am pretty aware that probably they would be better suited for Meldrum. Here's what I think, anyway. Its interpretation by those who defend its a bigfoot body print is always made as if the elk hypothesis can be safely ruled out. If this is true, then a 3D computer model based on a laser scan would not be needed to bring more data and eventually convince skeptics. Hair flow, skin folds, dermals, etc. are nothing but additional info; the main data, the bulk of the evidence must be the anatomy; the impressions of body parts that by no means match with those from an elk. Thus the question of why it has not triggered a major interest in North American zoologists if elk can be ruled out stands.
Sure, how would Noll present it to zoologists? Of course knocking at Smithsonian's door saying "hey, come take a look at this cast" does not seem to be a very productive strategy. Noll might as well have done all he could within his limits to show it to scientists. However, Meldrum as well as Swindler and Krantz must have (or had) the right contacts. Once again, why it has not triggered a major interest in North American zoologists? I can't help but conclude somehow Meldrum failed when presenting Skookum cast to scientific community. The main reasons for this IMHO can be because elk can not be ruled out as easy and certainly as it was said and/or the approach was somehow inadequate.

I understand the following has little if anything to do with Noll. Papers on Skookum cast were indeed submitted to peer-review journals. And they were refused. Now, usually a paper is not just "refused" but sent back to the authors with recommendations/suggestions for its improvement. Once the corrections are made, the article is published; its worthwhile to note that some suggestions may be ignored by the authors- its a dialogue between authors, reviewers and editors. A simple refusal means it most likely was really below the journal's quality standards. What authors do in these cases is to take the reviewers' comments and recommendations in to account, make major changes to the article and submit it again, even if to another journal. Why not improving the article by adding to Skookum cast the footprint casts from Meldrum's collection and then submitting it say, to Ichnos?

I can't help but think that maybe Meldrum does knows -even if deep down- that it is a highly questionable piece of evidence. I have the impression Noll considers it can't have been created by anything else but a bigfoot. How much of this is backed by belief instead of balanced analysis, I don't know. From his interview, I think belief prevails. But I may be wrong.
 
If it was all a set-up, why did the subject snarl at Patterson and Gimlin on a number of occassions? And what kind of ape costume has a head that lets the wearer make facial expressions?
Why so shy, mythusmage? I guess actually backing up your claims was too much to ask for.
 
Of course, this could be the difference between the U.K and the U.S.A. From my experience in England, few people snigger about bigfoot when the subject is brought up and most don't poo poo it or poke fun of it when conversation arises about it.
What if you had brought up Nessie? So, BTW, with the scoftic whining I was wondering if you could point out the posts where we dismiss off-hand the possibility of bigfoot existence.
I totally agree with you there. One body won't be enough. A dead sasquatch from Oregon isn't going to convince the ultra scoftic about a sighting report in British Columbia.
What do you base such speculation on?
 
I hate to throw myself in this discussion - but near as I can tell, the only person who has consistently changed their story is RP. I would personally like to hear why many think RP is so credible, considering his changing stories? That to me smacks of a serious problem with RP's involvement that people should question.

Sounds just as good to me...
 
Hey there, Lyndon....great job...as usual! ;)

Just one little "correction", though......

Nope, because Bob Heironimus did not simply forget to remember something. He actually insists he just wore his clothing with no padding under the suit and a football helmet over his head......................which is of course impossible. That's not simply forgetting something. That's making a ludicrous claim.


You should always use Bob's full name in your posts....Bob "Swiss-Cheese On Legs" Heironimus. :)
 
There's not a single characteristic of Patty pointed by PGF defenders as evidence that would dismiss the possibility of a human in a suit to which an alternative explanation involving a costume has not been provided. Many pics of vintage gorilla suits and low-budget series/movies from PGF time (or before) were posted as examples (concealed human proportions, smooth hair, etc.).

The pitfalls of measurements made in film frames were demonstrated; the difficulties of interpreting overblown images due to artifacts and resolution limits were commented.

Incoherencies in PGF shooting story and timeline have also been pointed.

Once again, its true skeptics can not prove PGF is a hoax. We can say there are evidences that it may be (or most likely is) a hoax. It is suspected to be a hoax. And it lacks reproducibility. This is enough IMHO to label it as unreliable.

I am skeptical that any PGF proponent can present any evidence capable of changing my position. What would it take for me to change it? Reproducibility. Decades passed and nothing similar came out. Or, of course, a bigfoot specimen that looks like Patty.

And since none of the above seems to be happening anytime soon…
:s2:
 
The padding was built into the suit itself, not placed on BH's body before getting inside. No football helmet involved. BH said the headpiece was like a FB helmet, not that it was one. Morris says that the headpieces on his gorilla suits were built like a helmet. The whole thing goes over the head and has rigid internal structure to maintain its shape. It is described as being like a helmet so that people can understand what it is like.

It's disingenous to say it actually was a FB helmet, because nobody said that. The same thing is done when Pattycakes talk about the feet. BH said they were like bedroom slippers attached to the legs. But Green tells people that BH said they were bedroom slippers. The same is done again when BH said that RP filmed from horseback. BH only meant that Roger started filming from horseback (then dismounted to continue filming). But in a desperate search for holes in his testimony, many believe that he must have meant that RP filmed the whole thing while sitting on a horse. These are not holes, but they do show the argumentative tactics of the Pattycakes.

Heironimus is consistently taken out of context by those who think he is making the whole thing up.
 
Again I urge everyone to listen to the Biscardi radio interview that includes Heironimus, Morris and Long. I consider it mandatory listening for any devoted PGF skeptic. These men answer unscripted live questions from many people (other guests and callers) who think that P&G really did film a Bigfoot and that BH must be making up his story.

It will take some time to download the three-hour archived show. It's worth the time!

Direct link to the radio show.
 
I'd certainly be curious to read what Sweaty has to say, just hope it isn't a reprisal of the finger bending.

It's not even the PGF.

Why don't you contact one of the pro-kill groups and ask if there's anything in the freezer.
 
Not to worry! I'm leaving in a few minutes! :p

I only came back to give Lu some friendly support...:)

Hey there, Lyndon....great job...as usual! ;)

Just one little "correction", though......




You should always use Bob's full name in your posts....Bob "Swiss-Cheese On Legs" Heironimus. :)
Riiight. Missed the sewer, huh? Hey, now there's an idea. Since you never dodge questions maybe you could answer the one that's been asked of you by us skeptical idiots so many times and never been answered so as to give the appearance of dodging. You know the one I'm talking about, right? If the fingers bend what must we pretend? Let me refresh your memory, here's you finally ackowledging the question with a Scooby Doo bail on answering in your sayonara post. Of course you should have said 'mata ne' (See you later).
tconley2019 wrote:


Actually it does....but just how much is debatable.

But considering how long it took...on this sewer of a discussion board...to show something as simple and obvious as Patty's fingers bending...attempting that would simply be another HUGE waste of my time.

I enjoyed watching the skeptics here cough-up anything and everything they could to explain the OBVIOUS finger-bending as something else.....it was a true pleasure.
(It was as if they had a NEED to....for some strange reason.)

LTC's interview for the "Skeptical Scientist" magazine was one of the highlights! :)

But, fortunately...there are much more pleasant boards to discuss things on than this pit.

Bye bye.....you skeptical idiots! :D

SweatyYeti, stop insulting people.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Patricio Elicer
Good ol' Sweaty, same ol' two-step.
 
To be precise, Heironimus said, in his interview with Long (The Making of Bigfoot, pg.345):

"Roger told my brother Howard he made the whole thing out of horsehide. Roger had skinned a dead, red horse and attached or glued fur from an old fur coat onto the horsehide skin."

On pg. 344, he says:

"My feet slipped into the feet of the suit I think the feet were made of old houseslippers you used to see around, that looked like big feet with toes in them."

And, on pg. 346:

"The head fits on next. I think the head was made out of a, it seemed to me...like an old time football helmet."

Enter Morris in the final chapter.

Correction: Long phoned Morris on November 26, 2003. Morris had stated he'd sold a gorilla suit to Roger Patterson - and that the suit ended up in Patterson's bigfoot film in a Charlotte (WBT-AM) radio show, August 16, 2002.

He describes the six-piece Dynel suit in detail on pg. 449 - 450. It had a 36" zipper running down the back.

Heironimus described a slip-on torso, that was like putting on a T-shirt (pg. 345).

Shall I go on?
 
The statement from Gimlin's attorney:

"I'm authorized to tell you that nobody wore a gorilla suit or monkey suit and that Mr. Gimlin's position is that it's absolutely false and untrue."
 
It's not even the PGF.

Okay if it isn't to do with the PGF, what is it then? If I it something that ultimately proves the existence of the creature than I am all ears.

Why don't you contact one of the pro-kill groups and ask if there's anything in the freezer.

Actually you could do the same, and if there is something in the freezer, urge them to bring it to the scientific community. Then the question would be resolved.
 
And another thing, if I pro-kill gang had a body, they'd surely hand it over to the scientific community.
 
"I'm authorized to tell you that nobody wore a gorilla suit or monkey suit and that Mr. Gimlin's position is that it's absolutely false and untrue."

Well of course not. They would have worn a sasquatch suit. Even the believers would spot a gorilla suit or a monkey suit.
 
The statement from Gimlin's attorney:

"I'm authorized to tell you that nobody wore a gorilla suit or monkey suit and that Mr. Gimlin's position is that it's absolutely false and untrue."

A lawyer said that ?

Really ?

That seals it then .. No need to discuss this any further...


Anyway ....
Why does Mr. Gimlin need a lawyer to speak for him ?
 
I hate to throw myself in this discussion - but near as I can tell, the only person who has consistently changed their story is RP. I would personally like to hear why many think RP is so credible, considering his changing stories? That to me smacks of a serious problem with RP's involvement that people should question.

Sounds just as good to me...

So, you answer a question with a question? Just answer the question and leave the drama for someone else.

I would really like to hear the answer. If RP or anyone else is not credible, then why in the world would anyone believe a word that came out of BH's mouth? He has backtracked and had more problems keeping his own story straight.. I would just like an answer.
 
It's actually been clearly identified as supposedly non human by some people, a man in a suit by others and as a sasquatch by others still.

That's hardly clearly identified. Lots of speculation, but no clear identification.

Nevertheless, we do have tracks from the site where the subject was filmed. That is not anecdotal. That's a fact.
Yes, there are tracks. Tracks that may be real or may have been fabricated. We have no way of knowing which.

I'm not aware of any evidence showing Patterson making said tracks himself.
There's no clear evidence showing who/what made the tracks.

He wasn't lying about filming something. He did film something.
Yes, he filmed something. Something that's never been clearly identified.

It's not anecdotal. It's a fact.
Yes, it's a fact he filmed something. I've never argued otherwise. Without 'the suit' (evidence) or a dead bigfoot (evidence), claims presented by any purported participants are purely anecdotal.

How do you know?
I don't, nor do I pretend to know. If Gimlim were a decent shot there's no reason to think he wouldn't have been successful. He never tried.

Other people have supposedly shot at them and not been successful.
More anecdotes?

Had Gimlin shot the subject, supposed he didn't kill it and it came after him to rip his head off LOL????
Yes, that seems to be the standard response. Bigfoot rips your head off if you make him angry. More anecdotes perhaps?

Actually, many claims about the footage can and have been proven and corroborated.
Ah, you mean like the height and weight of the film subject? No? Well, the skeletal structure perhaps? The inhumanly small head? What specifically has been proven and corroborated with an actual sasquatch?

Conversely, there is not even any real evidence that pointed to Patterson feeding us guff and hoaxing us.
Then it's no guff that he and Gimlin must have followed Patty for 3.5 miles as he said. That doesn't seem to mesh with the Titmus map (page 88 of Big Footprints) showing how Patty walked to within 125 yards of the two men after the encounter. Either detailed information has been left out, or one of the two men (Patterson or Titmus) is not being truthful.

Patterson is dead and never confessed to a hoax. In fact, his behaviour and actions in the years after he took the footage strongly support his sincerity with regards to sasquatch and sasquatch like creatures (the Yeti etc).
Believe it or not, some people make money off bigfoot. Patterson made money off bigfoot. If it was a hoax, why would he admit that and stop the money flow?

Gimlin has said more than enough over the years and never changed his stance.
He's also admitted the possibility that he was hoaxed by Patterson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson-Gimlin_film said:
I was totally convinced no one could fool me. And of course I’m an older man now ... and I think there could have been the possibility [of a hoax]. But it would have to be really well planned by Roger [Patterson].” -- Bob Gimlin in a 1999 telephone interview with television producer Chris Packham

Bob H doesn't even have the body proportions, nor movements to have been the main in the suit. Bob H's claim is by far is the weakest and most preposterous of the three.
As I've said, without the suit his claims/stories are anecdotal.

Who says it's unidentified? Plenty of others disagree.
Exactly why it remains unidentified. Now if you were to produce a squatch so we can confirm...

You mean the film mailing timeline??
That ain't the only timeline that's wonky.

Whoopie do.
Which is exactly what we get from the film.

What stories don't match?? The question of whether the horse fell or slipped?? Whoopie do.
I see you have a lot of reading to do.

This is a theory with no supporting evidence whatsoever and nothing to indicate a staged trackway in the slightest.
When choosing between two hypotheses, I'll go with the one that seems more probable. Reliable evidence of people faking tracks exists. Reliable evidence of bigfoot does not.

Debating the P/G footage can be very productive.
After nearly 40 years many people are still not convinced that Patterson filmed a sasquatch. Debating the images from the film, or purported dimensions of the film subject, or the inhuman gait, or any other aspect of the film is simply not productive.

That people cling so desperately to anecdotes regarding the film is a testament to its failure to convince people.

RayG
 
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