Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[LAL]

Sorry for the delay in responding. There is an ongoing Bigfooter claim that a found Bigfoot trackway went on for 7 miles in snow and traversed terrain and incline that would be quite difficult for a human to accomplish. It's proposed that a hoaxer wearing fake feet would have had an extremely difficult project to accomplish, and would have been unlikely to even choose to do it at all.

I'm making the claim. The people who discovered the trackways were by no stretch of the imagination "Bigfooters".

It was a double trackway, discovered in 1969 north of Carson, Washington, around the time of the Cox sighting, 1/2 mile east of Beacon Rock (a full print was found and cast after that one - a smeared toeprint was found 8' up the 14' bank the animal scaled after crossing HWY 14). The snowpack that year was the heaviest in 85 years. Animals in general were coming down from higher elevations in search of food. (I've related all this before - it seems you missed it or got it mixed up somehow.)

As I recall the lakes along 14 were still frozen in April that year. Multnomah Falls froze. It was spectacular!

Ed McClarney, who is (or was, if he's deceased now) nearly 6'4" had to jump to equal that stride.

You'd have to have two very tall hoaxers (or one very energetic hoaxer who managed to conceal the return trip), bounding through snow for seven miles without a slip, and scaling (or descending, if the feet were on backwards) an incline the people had to climb. Or a machine, or a helicopter, or stilts or.........) The film may still be in the Columbian's archives somewhere.

There's a trackway shown in The Mysterious Monsters with Peter Graves but it doesn't appear to be the double trackway. There were several found that year.

These were the events that led to the county's ordinance. Ed later bought the local paper and became a county commissioner. He was from Seattle, a graduate of UW (lest anyone think he was a "hick") and at the time was the photographer for the Skamania County Pioneer. Roy Craft owned it. Ed owned a farm north of Carson, and was hiking with a friend when they discovered the trackways, which were already several days old and not in a location where they were likely to be seen at all.

Five DNR workers saw a pair crossing a meadow several years later. Skamania County has more reported incidents (BFRO figures) than anywhere else in the country. (Why would that be?) It's still considered a "hot spot".

Dahinden described the trackway that went into a canyon (in his book with Don Hunter), and a camper discovered more tracks, which were cast. These events were investigated by the Sheriff's department (I seem to recall Closner went to FBI school - he wasn't as dumb as the kids thought) and there were a number of sightings and repeated raids on a rabbit hutch that winter and spring.

BTW, Peter Byrne followed another equally long single trackway. I suppose you could call him a "Bigfooter".

It's always fun to see these lame attempts to explain all this away. Please continue.

 

[Belz...]

I'm making the claim. The people who discovered the trackways were by no stretch of the imagination "Bigfooters".

No, the people weren't of the imagination of bigfooters. The TRACKWAYS were, apparently. Or do you have a picture of that 7-mile track ?

 

[Correa Neto]

Misdentification of say, prints made by a pair of bears was ruled out exactly how?

The following

(a full print was found and cast after that one - a smeared toeprint was found 8' up the 14' bank the animal scaled after crossing HWY 14)

were the evidence used to attribute the tracks to bigfeet? Overstepped bear tracks have been erroneously attributed to bigfeet. Partial melting substantially changes the shape of prints in the snow. How the tracks were followed? By foot, along the seven miles?

Unfortunately those tracks are not specially hard to explain.
Some people choose to ignore these facts...

Oh, look, bigfeet crossed a road. Any roadkill so far? No, Harry and Hendersons does not count.

Reliable evidence, got some?
No, camp tales will not do. Entertaining, I admit, but not exactly reliable.

 

[fsol]

which were already several days old and not in a location where they were likely to be seen at all.

But someone did see them, right?

 

[William Parcher]

Somebody set up us the bomb.

 

[LTC8K6]

Bigfoot tracks are always seen where no one would see them.

 

[William Parcher]

These events were investigated by the Sheriff's department (I seem to recall Closner went to FBI school - he wasn't as dumb as the kids thought) and there were a number of sightings and repeated raids on a rabbit hutch that winter and spring. It's always fun to see these lame attempts to explain all this away. Please continue.

"Here bunny, bunny, bunny."

 

[kitakaze]

These bigfoots... they have to eat, darling. You know why? Because yes, they are marvelous. For such a creatures reported pan-continentally eating ducks, oh I love duck, the little rabbits and deer, the clams I am told... you know, I am thinking we should really know more. Don't you agree, darling. Very mysterious, yes. How about a some fine cham-pagn-nya? Wait! Where are you going?

Christopher Walken from the Continental on bigfoot

 

[William Parcher]

"Gosh darn it, Ivan, right there was a Bigfoot. And, fer pity's sake, she was a female! Just wait till you see the film." Roger Patterson to Ivan T. Sanderson

 

[tube]

Some time ago, I saw a video of a presentation that Greg Long gave at one of Ray Crowe's Bigfoot meetings. I believe it was given just before his book came out. His manner was confrontational, and in my opinion, not particularly effective at winning hearts and minds.

One thing that he touched on that stuck in my mind was his comparison of how people venerate "Patty" as a quasi-religious icon by looking for minute and exotic detail in the holy image. Long may have referenced the Shroud of Turin, but I can't remember for sure.

Since I didn't know a lot about the history of holy relics, specifically Christian relics, I didn't know exactly what Long was talking about at the time.

I just finished reading Joe Nickell's new book Relics of the Christ. It devotes a significant amount of attention to the famous Shroud of Turin. I found the following passages particulary relevant to the photo analysis of "Patty", especially the recent claims by MK Davis. From pages 140 to 142:

"Besides the body imprints and "blood", some shroud enthusiasts claim to discern additional images in photos of the shroud. In smudgy-appearing areas that were subsequently enhanced, they perceive plant images that supposedly link the European cloth with Palestine. Such work was done by a retired geriatric psychiatrist Alan Whanger and his wife, Mary. They were later assisted by an Israeli botanist who looked at their photos of "flower" images (many of them "wilted" and otherwise distorted) and exclaimed. "Those are the flowers of Jerusalem!" Apparently, no one has thought to see whether some might match the flowers of France of Italy or try to prove that the images are indeed floral (given the relative scarcity of pollen grains on the cloth).

These flower and plant images join other shapes perceived, Rorschach style, in the shroud's mottled image and off-image areas. These include Roman coins over the eyes; head and arm phylacteries (small Jewish prayer boxes); an amulet; Crucifixion-associated items (compare John 19) such as a large nail, a hammer, a sponge on a reed, a Roman thrusting spear, pliers, two scourges, two brush brooms, two small nails, a large spoon or trowel in a box, a loose coil of rope, a cloak with a belt, a tunic, and a pair of sandals; and other far-fetched imaginings, including Roman dice - all discovered by the Whangers and their botanist friend (Whanger and Whanger 1998)."

Yeah, I guess Long was right after all!

"Holy" fake relic + self-promoting pareidolia = crackpot interpretation!

 

[LTC8K6]

"Gosh darn it, Ivan, right there was a Bigfoot. And, fer pity's sake, she was a female! Just wait till you see the film." Roger Patterson to Ivan T. Sanderson

That line right there has made me think "hoax" ever since I first read it.

 

[kitakaze]

Thank you Loren Coleman and Craig Woolheater for protecting the myth of bigfoot and ensuring that all our base are belong to DWA by removing troublesome counterpoints.

DWA- educator, scientist-like thinker:

DWA responds:
May 5th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
And there’s more to be said about the label “scoftic.”

If you don’t suffer fools gladly, sooner or later a good one-word dismissive comes in handy.

Don’t want to be pasted with “scoftic”? Don’t act like one. I’ve given you pointers. Let’s summarize them:

1. Don’t keep coming back with the same old Urban Arguments Against when we’ve shot them full of holes. Particularly when it’s clear to us you’re cherrypicking, and not confronting our arguments and addressing them.

2. Show you know something about the sciences involved. (About science in general would sure be nice. We’re not your parents and this isn’t fourth-grade science fair. Evidence means more than one thing, honey.)

3. Please stop saying there’s no evidence. It marks you an unschooled rube. I wouldn’t pretend to sit at the table discussing today’s most important astronomy topics with the world’s most prominent astronomers. Don’t you sit at this table and show, in post after post, not only your ignorance of data, evidence, and the relevant sciences, but also your unwillingness to listen to any point of view other than your own. OK, we’re nicer than astronomers. But if you’re ignorant, show you can learn.

4. STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW MORE THAN YOU AND CONTINUALLY DEMONSTRATE IT.

Now, balance a book on your head and show us a compliant gait. Yeah. It’s kinda like finishing school.

Um, does this sound like a lot to post?

See where “scoftic” comes from?

 

[RayG]

Thank you Loren Coleman and Craig Woolheater for protecting the myth of bigfoot and ensuring that all our base are belong to DWA by removing troublesome counterpoints.

DWA- educator, scientist-like thinker:

Notice how the terms 'scoftic' and 'credulist' are quite interchangeable. I wonder, would this get posted over there?

And there’s more to be said about the label “credulist.”

If you don’t suffer fools gladly, sooner or later a good one-word dismissive comes in handy.

Don’t want to be pasted with “credulist”? Don’t act like one. I’ve given you pointers. Let’s summarize them:

1. Don’t keep coming back with the same old Urban Proponent Arguments when we’ve shot them full of holes. Particularly when it’s clear to us you’re cherrypicking, and not confronting our arguments and addressing them.

2. Show you know something about the sciences involved. (About science in general would sure be nice. We’re not your parents and this isn’t fourth-grade science fair.)

3. Please stop saying there’s evidence. It marks you an unschooled rube. I wouldn’t pretend to sit at the table discussing astrology with the world’s most prominent astronomers. Don’t you sit at this table and show, in post after post, not only your ignorance of science and its methods, a lack of testable data, faked evidence, and a penchant for wishful-thinking, but also your unwillingness to listen to any point of view other than your own. Ok, we're nicer than astrologers, but if you’re ignorant, show you can learn.

4. STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW MORE THAN YOU AND CONTINUALLY DEMONSTRATE IT.

Now, balance a book on your head and show us a compliant gait. Yeah. It’s kinda like finishing school.

Um, does this sound like a lot to post?

See where “credulist” comes from?

And see how easy it is to label someone with a difference of opinion.

RayG

 

[Belz...]

This just isn't the same without Sweaty.

I miss the lack of arguments.

 

[kitakaze]

This just isn't the same without Sweaty.

I miss the lack of arguments.

Tinker Belz, you're a putz... No, you're right. It's not the same. Meh, I tried.

 

[LAL]

No, the people weren't of the imagination of bigfooters. The TRACKWAYS were, apparently. Or do you have a picture of that 7-mile track ?

I haven't been able to find one, but the Columbian camera crew was there. They might have had difficulty filming imaginations.

There was no imagining a double trackway going as far as the eye could see. You didn't know these people. What right do you have to judge them?

The double trackway was one of several incidents that year. The trackway that led to the lava beds (seven miles from any habitation) is described in Dahinden/Hunter along with the Cox sighting. If you ever read the book you'll find it confirms what I said about the winter.

The paper did a special edition; possibly there are photos in there, or the Columbian might still have them. (The edition is out of print and unavailable, but the current owner of the Pioneer thought the Stevenson library might have it on microfiche. I'm rather far from there now.)

 

[kitakaze]

I haven't been able to find one, but the Columbian camera crew was there. They might have had difficulty filming imaginations.

There was no imagining a double trackway going as far as the eye could see. You didn't know these people. What right do you have to judge them?

The double trackway was one of several incidents that year. The trackway that led to the lava beds (seven miles from any habitation) is described in Dahinden/Hunter along with the Cox sighting. If you ever read the book you'll find it confirms what I said about the winter.

The paper did a special edition; possibly there are photos in there, or the Columbian might still have them. (The edition is out of print and unavailable, but the current owner of the Pioneer thought the Stevenson library might have it on microfiche. I'm rather far from there now.)

LAL, no worries if you can't find an image of the alledged 7 mile trackway. Do you have any photos of trackway that you feel a misidentification or hoax can be confidently ruled out?

That reminds me, I was watching A&E's 'Ancient Mysteries' on bigfoot on youtube the other day and the very first track they show at the beginning is an obvious Wallace stomper.

 

[Belz...]

I haven't been able to find one, but the Columbian camera crew was there. They might have had difficulty filming imaginations.

Excellent! Then you'll have no trouble digging up that video and giving us a link or at least a place where we can look for it if it isn't on the web.

There was no imagining a double trackway going as far as the eye could see. You didn't know these people. What right do you have to judge them?

It is precisely because I don't judge them that I don't trust their account.

 

[LAL]

Excellent! Then you'll have no trouble digging up that video and giving us a link or at least a place where we can look for it if it isn't on the web.

Video? In 1969? I'm in touch with someone who lives in the area. I'm hoping I can get him to look Ed up and see if he has photos. The film the crew took should still be in the Columbian's archives, I'd think.

It is precisely because I don't judge them that I don't trust their account.

Is that supposed to make sense?

 

[LAL]

LAL, no worries if you can't find an image of the alledged 7 mile trackway..

There were two trackways, side by side, and there was nothing alleged about them.

Do you have any photos of trackway that you feel a misidentification or hoax can be confidently ruled out?.

Do you mean in my possession or in books or on the Net?

That reminds me, I was watching A&E's 'Ancient Mysteries' on bigfoot on youtube the other day and the very first track they show at the beginning is an obvious Wallace stomper.

Got a link? I have the A&E DVD and the tape, but I don't know what's on YouTube. Wallace is getting way too much credit, especially for trackways found in California while he was living in Washington.

What's with the board? I'm getting error messages and haven't been able to access on and off for several days.