Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[lonepinealex]

Ah, but we have seen a precedent case in which a husband actually did commit murder for this very reason.

I assume you're referring to the article posted earlier in this thread? Even if we accept the sketchy details of a Daily Mail article at face value, there are big differences.

- Ginday worked in a bank, he was not a wealthy, independent businessman with resources.

- Ginday's marriage was arranged in India and he had only met the bride for a few hours prior to the wedding. Shrien and Anni met in London, dated and had an on-again, off-again relationship lasting almost two years. Both of them were born and raised in Western, liberal countries. Dewani had been having secret gay encounters that whole time, and Anni had called off the engagement at least once. It hardly looks like either of them felt forced or trapped in the relationship.

- Ginday murdered his wife himself, in their home.

- the murder was clearly pre-meditated, with incriminating internet searches. If something similar comes to light in Dewani's trial, I will change my mind.

- There are precedents for gay men leading double lives in all cultures. Ginday and Dewani are not even from the same Indian background - Ginday's background is Punjabi. India is a massive, extremely diverse country of over a billion people, and there are over a million people of Indian origin in the UK. Finding an apparently similar crime (except for most of the actual details and a crude definition of "Indian" culture) is hardly astonishing. There are probably cases of white gay men having done the same thing, just as there will be cases of Indian men having secret gay double lives without resorting to murdering their wives after three days.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think this may have been the first thing I ever saw about this case.

So in the beginning, S.D. stated the money was to pay for Tongo's services and then, at some point, it became for this helicopter ride? Why would S.D. buy a helicopter ride in cash, through Tongo? That has to be one of the stupider moves an innocent S.D. would have made. Did they ever find a booking for a helicopter ride?

He was not going to make a booking through Tongo. Tongo claimed he found a willing pilot and SD was going to haggle with him direct. I dont think SD claimec the money was for Tongo if by that you mean the R14000 he had that night.

 

[lonepinealex]

So let me ask you this. If the car-jacking and attack was not previously arranged by S.D., why do you think he didn't use the 10,000 to bargain for the freedom of him and / or his wife?

How do you know he didn't? According to his statement he tried to use his wife's jewellery to do exactly that.

 

[katy_did]

Your argument would be quite weak even if it was premised on fact. But it's relative strength or weakness is a moot point for, since it's not based on fact, your argument is simply irrelevant.

The fact is the media were "digging into his background" on or before the time of even the first arrest in the case. But Dewani didn't deactive his gay orgy seeking profiles then. Nor did he delete them after a second conspirator was arrested. However neither of these two intended patsies could directly point to Dewani as the instigator of the plot to murder his wife.

It was only after the taxi driver- who up to this point Dewani was relying on to corroborate his story- was arrested that Dewani abruptly decided it was necessary to bury his bumhole buddy seeking activies even deeper than they had been before.
.
.

The first article about him was published six days after the murder; he contacted Max Clifford and supposedly deleted his gay profiles a day later. I suspect the whole reason for hiring Max Clifford was to try to keep the gay rumours out of the press (hence the almost certainly planted story about him having an affair with a woman a few weeks later).

But it really doesn't matter - for the sake of argument let's say it's just as likely he deleted his gay profiles because Tongo was arrested as it is he did it because he knew the press were investigating him. The point is that since there's a perfectly plausible and equally likely "innocent" explanation for him deleting those profiles, you can't point to it as a sign of guilt, as you were doing. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that it isn't plausible he deleted the profiles to stop the press getting hold of them (coincidentally at the same time as he hired Max Clifford to stop the press reporting on that side of his life).

Speaking of arguments premised on facts, or not, are you sure he actually did delete his profiles a week after the murder?

Oh, and "bumhole buddy"? Nice.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

How do you know he didn't? According to his statement he tried to use his wife's jewellery to do exactly that.

Well, he's never said he did. That would have been an important detail, no?

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

He was not going to make a booking through Tongo. Tongo claimed he found a willing pilot and SD was going to haggle with him direct. I dont think SD claimec the money was for Tongo if by that you mean the R14000 he had that night.

Who hires a "willing pilot" on the black market? Most certainly not a wealthy businessman like S.D.

 

[lonepinealex]

Who hires a "willing pilot" on the black market? Most certainly not a wealthy businessman like S.D.

Nothing certain about that at all. And who said anything about black market? He claims he took Tongo for a respectable man who knew the right people to talk to. I know "fixers" like this - they're not de facto criminals! Dewani liked to get a deal. Many wealthy businessmen do, that's exactly how they roll.

 

[lonepinealex]

Well, he's never said he did. That would have been an important detail, no?

Wut. According to his statement, they had them at gunpoint and asked for their money first, which he handed over. What kind of bargaining position is he in at gunpoint, having already handed over all the cash? Even if he hadn't, he can't make a deal at gunpoint.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Nothing certain about that at all. And who said anything about black market? He claims he took Tongo for a respectable man who knew the right people to talk to. I know "fixers" like this - they're not de facto criminals! Dewani liked to get a deal. Many wealthy businessmen do, that's exactly how they roll.

Here are just some of the helicopter companies available:
Cape Town Helicopters
220 East Pier | Breakwater Edge, V&A Helipad, Cape Town Central, South Africa (021) 418 9462
---
NAC Helicopters Cape Town
E Pier Rd, V & A Waterfront, Cape Town, 8001, South Africa +27 21 425 3868
---
Flights In a Huey Helicopter - Waterfront Cape Town - South Africa +27 (0) 21 462 6755
---

Oh, and here you can see it costs about $80.71 USD for a ride. I wonder why he needed nearly $1,000 USD for his "deal."

 

[lonepinealex]

Here are just some of the helicopter companies available:
Cape Town Helicopters
220 East Pier | Breakwater Edge, V&A Helipad, Cape Town Central, South Africa (021) 418 9462
---
NAC Helicopters Cape Town
E Pier Rd, V & A Waterfront, Cape Town, 8001, South Africa +27 21 425 3868
---
Flights In a Huey Helicopter - Waterfront Cape Town - South Africa +27 (0) 21 462 6755
---

Oh, and here you can see it costs about $80.71 USD for a ride. I wonder why he needed nearly $1,000 USD for his "deal."

His explanations are all in the plea document linked on the previous page.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Do you think he (M. Peterson) did it?

I wasn't referring to that case, but yes, I think Peterson did it. He's been mixed up in one too many stairway accidents for me to believe him.

You could say this about any case with a strong motive.

Heh. You have it backwards.

I could say this about any case with poor evidence.

 

[lonepinealex]

No pressure or at the very least much less pressure would have been placed on a widower.


Or Anni could have been a serious threat to his gay lifestyle. The fact that he was logged on during his honeymoon, before and after the murder is indicative of someone quite immersed in that lifestyle.



Did you see the wedding pictures? It is a difficult argument to make that he was more British than Indian. That wedding in Mumbai was phenomenal. It looks to me like he was on a train that kept gathering speed and he couldn't get off, or at least he believed getting off would have been worse than what he (allegedly) did.



This is all conjecture.



Are you Indian? Typically, they do not get divorced, at least not easily. Anni was now going to live with him. He would not have had the freedom he previously had with which to pursue men. The marriage increased the chances he would get caught too. How humiliating would that have been? The cheapo assassination fits perfectly when you consider the murder rate in South Africa. What a perfect cover.

I don't know where you're from, but a lot of this shows some misapprehension of the various British Asian cultures.

I am not Indian, neither is Shrien and neither was Anni. Divorce is not uncommon amongst British Asians, and it is increasing in India as well. It's simply not plausible to suggest that Dewani felt he had no other way out of his supposedly sham marriage.

Yes my views on their relationship include a lot of conjecture, but no more than anyone making any claims that contradict Dewani's statements.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

His explanations are all in the plea document linked on the previous page.

Yes, and they make no sense. He claimed he wanted a private helicopter ride. Honestly, this is ridiculous. It's a helicopter, not a jet. It's never going to be big enough for you to have your own suite.

Then there's the fact that he wanted a deal, but he was going to pay way more than just getting it on his own at the options close to the hotel. Inconsistent behavior.

Then there's the fact that he never said the money was for a helicopter ride until 3 years after the murder. His first story was the money was to pay Tongo for taxi services.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I don't know where you're from, but a lot of this shows some misapprehension of the various British Asian cultures.

I am not Indian, neither is Shrien and neither was Anni. Divorce is not uncommon amongst British Asians, and it is increasing in India as well. It's simply not plausible to suggest that Dewani felt he had no other way out of his supposedly sham marriage.

Yes my views on their relationship include a lot of conjecture, but no more than anyone making any claims that contradict Dewani's statements.

They were of Indian ethnicity.

Admittedly my views come from my personal experience, from my Indian friends, one of which is married through an arranged marriage. Her physician husband cheats on her regularly, but divorce is out of the question. Another is unhappily married, but he stays in the relationship anyway.

 

[lonepinealex]

Ah wal, we'll have to wait and see what else comes out in the trial. Maybe the prosecution has a smoking gun or even anything that looks more incriminating.

So far, I'm unconvinced beyond reasonable doubt. I don't find the motive at all compelling and the murder itself looks too bumbling to be a hit. Plus there are lots of inconsistencies between the three known perpetrators' statements and the established facts.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Ah wal, we'll have to wait and see what else comes out in the trial. Maybe the prosecution has a smoking gun or even anything that looks more incriminating.

So far, I'm unconvinced beyond reasonable doubt. I don't find the motive at all compelling and the murder itself looks too bumbling to be a hit. Plus there are lots of inconsistencies between the three known perpetrators' statements and the established facts.

Yeah, although if they had more, I would think it would have been leaked by now. I'm pretty sure Shrien's plea statement addresses everything received via discovery.

Funny, I find the motive compelling, but I agree the murder itself needs something like a concrete money trail and / or phone records, or some other kind of evidence that isn't easily dismissed. I don't know yet if it will go beyond reasonable doubt for me.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I was reading through the tweets of the live testimony from today and I came across this:

VZ: My client (Shrien Dewani) will testify that there was R10 000 in that handbag.

{ENCA's Leigh-Anne Jansen tweets that "Shrien nods"}

Qwabe: Well, that's his version.

Why would Shrien testify the R10,000 was in Anni's handbag if it was supposed to be for a surprise helicopter trip?

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes, and they make no sense. He claimed he wanted a private helicopter ride. Honestly, this is ridiculous. It's a helicopter, not a jet. It's never going to be big enough for you to have your own suite.

Then there's the fact that he wanted a deal, but he was going to pay way more than just getting it on his own at the options close to the hotel. Inconsistent behavior.

Then there's the fact that he never said the money was for a helicopter ride until 3 years after the murder. His first story was the money was to pay Tongo for taxi services.

Where are you getting this from?

 

[anglolawyer]

I was reading through the tweets of the live testimony from today and I came across this:



Why would Shrien testify the R10,000 was in Anni's handbag if it was supposed to be for a surprise helicopter trip?

His defence plea explains that he was in the habit of asking her to carry wads of cash in her handbag. In this case, his suit had no suitable pockets.

 

[anglolawyer]

Here are just some of the helicopter companies available:
Cape Town Helicopters
220 East Pier | Breakwater Edge, V&A Helipad, Cape Town Central, South Africa (021) 418 9462
---
NAC Helicopters Cape Town
E Pier Rd, V & A Waterfront, Cape Town, 8001, South Africa +27 21 425 3868
---
Flights In a Huey Helicopter - Waterfront Cape Town - South Africa +27 (0) 21 462 6755
---

Oh, and here you can see it costs about $80.71 USD for a ride. I wonder why he needed nearly $1,000 USD for his "deal."

Yes, a 12 minute ride and probably in a helicopter seating several others too. He was chartering a private flight.