Showdown in Washington, D.C.

[uk_dave]

Are there any other BAC posts where you endorse his conclusions?

Are there any others where you don't?

 

[Lurker]

Now while we are on the subject of wealth, the Bible also states that one should not steal. I suppose the taxes that the government levies on individuals might be considered stealing (after all, it's something taken at the point of a gun), certainly when they reach the level they are now or soon will be at. It is even stealing from future generations, folks who have no voice at all and can't possible have a voice.

Alas, it is not stealing as we vote through our Congressional representatives for taxes. If you don't like the taxes, blame the people, not government.

And the Bible also values hard work. One of the Ten Commandments says we should work six days a week. That doesn't seem exactly compatible with living off the dole.

Yet we commonly work only five.

In any case, when Jesus said a "rich" man cannot get into heaven, what did he mean by "rich"? Did rich mean relative to one's neighbor or relative to most everyone else on earth? If it's the later, then almost any American will not reach heaven. Presuming you are a Christian, do you believe that? And if you aren't a Christian, what are you, because there might be some reason to question whether YOU really believe what you claim, too.

I am a Christian and believe that only rich people who vote for tax increases and social programs will get into heaven.

 

[varwoche]

It's much more likely that the reason the GOP pretty much ignored the rally is because they HEARD Beck when he repeatedly said the rally was non political.

Unlike the clueless buffoons of the left following mindless spinmeisters taking orders from starry eyed drone bugs of Soros.

LOL. Let me see if I have the hierarchy right...

Soros
...Starry eyed drone bugs
......Mindless spinmeisters
..........Clueless buffoons

 

[MattusMaximus]

airphotos.com didn't include this shot on their website. Are you offended by including this crowd level photo in this thread for some reason?

They didn't include the shot because, surprise, it wasn't theirs and it also isn't an overhead shot. Duh.

And, since you asked, the only thing offending me here is that you think I'm stupid enough to buy into your blatant cherry-picking of the data.

BTW: Citing BAC as your go to reference is indeed fascinating. Are there any other BAC posts where you endorse his conclusions?

Yes, on occasion, BAC and I have agreed on other threads; not often, but it happens...

Which is, of course, a lie. You see, BAC and I are secretly members of the CPLS Club - the Commie Pinko Liberal Socialist Club - and our modus operandi is to play good cop/bad cop with true patriots such as yourself on internet message boards in the hopes of sowing dissension within the ranks of the conservative movement. I work from the outside and BAC works from the inside - BAC has been particularly good at infiltrating various Tea Party groups in the hopes of ultimately bringing them down. When he does, I'll notify my Muslim masters in the White House and have those conservatives sent off to the secret FEMA camps for "re-education". And then BAC and I will move on to another message board, quietly scouring the Internet and making the world ready for the impending Marxist NWO.

 

[Cleon]

Which is, of course, a lie. You see, BAC and I are secretly members of the CPLS Club - the Commie Pinko Liberal Socialist Club - and our modus operandi is to play good cop/bad cop with true patriots such as yourself on internet message boards in the hopes of sowing dissension within the ranks of the conservative movement. I work from the outside and BAC works from the inside - BAC has been particularly good at infiltrating various Tea Party groups in the hopes of ultimately bringing them down. When he does, I'll notify my Muslim masters in the White House and have those conservatives sent off to the secret FEMA camps for "re-education". And then BAC and I will move on to another message board, quietly scouring the Internet and making the world ready for the impending Marxist NWO.

Geez, why not just tell him about the piranha pools, too?

 

[mhaze]

LOL. Let me see if I have the hierarchy right...

Soros
...Starry eyed drone bugs
......Mindless spinmeisters
..........Clueless buffoons

You did want the short version, right?

 

[mhaze]

.....You misunderstand me. I am NOT advocating that the government or the church forcefully take property. I was pointing out that Christians wanting to follow the Bible should follow all parts of the Bible, not just the convenient parts. God says, sell your objects and pool your money. If you want to follow God's Word, then that is what must be done.

Oh, I agree with your revised statement then.

Because there is no possible conceptual leap from what may be considered by those reading the bible as directives to the individual to some kind of social communical collectivist mandate to take things away from other people.

Except for a few practical statements such as "render to Caesar...."

As for usury and capitalism, I only point out that the logic is false. Interest exists in all types of social organizations, not just capitalism.

Say that MC Visa charge interest. But they are ubiquitous in almost all countries. They are not a part of "capitalism" but of economics of trade. You choose whether to have a MC or Visa, at least currently.

 

[Cicero]

So Jealous Jealous is a liar?

Appears he has company.

Forgetting to note that Mr. Beck asked repeatedly for people to leave their signs and guns at home.

 

[Lurker]

Geez, why not just tell him about the piranha pools, too?

Well, it's a start but they better be ill-tempered piranhas. Next time there better be frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their frickin' heads.

 

[Cicero]

They didn't include the shot because, surprise, it wasn't theirs and it also isn't an overhead shot. Duh.

"The balloon gave the company the capacity to move up and down, allowing it to photograph people who were standing beneath trees in addition to taking photos from high above. "Curt Westergard, the president of AirPhotosLive.com

Duh.

 

[BeAChooser]

As far the government collecting taxes and in your opinion stealing, I don't think the government is a living entity and thus can not be judged by god so the conversation ends there.

It hardly ends there. Because the people who form, maintain and expand a government and it's powers are living entities, and God will surely judge them. The people who write the laws are living entities, and God will judge them. The people who enforce the laws are living entities, so God will judge them too.

The Bible doesn't say much about government but the Bible does indicate that God is the ultimate authority. It seems to me that a human government usurps God's authority when it demands one obey laws contrary to God's Commandments.

The Bible does not forbid paying taxes, in fact it seems to encourages us to pay taxes. But at some point taxes must become stealing. Right? Perhaps that point is a tax rate around 10% because in the Bible the prophet Samuel tells the people (1 Samuel 8) who are demanding a new king that

This is what the king who will reign over you will do: … snip … He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.

In fact, the Bible mentions "a tenth" as being the "tithe" to kings repeatedly. Abraham gave 10% to the priest-king Melchizedek. Abraham became very wealthy, but never seems to have given more than 10% of what he made to the king. In Deuteronomy it talks of the Israelites setting aside 10% and the 10% wasn't optional giving but mandatory. A tax. So perhaps anything above 10% should be viewed as something God would consider stealing, rather than just a "tax".

Or look at it another way. Jesus said to "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." But the Bible also says that "All silver and Gold belong to me, [says God]". The Bible says "The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof." If everything (gold and silver included) belongs to God, what is left for Caesar? When Jesus implied that a coin belonged to Caesar because the coin had Caesar's image on it, does that mean our coins belong to dead Presidents? And our money is not property but a LIABILITY of the Federal Reserve. That $1 bill you hold does not mean you owe the Federal Government $1 but that the Federal Government owes you $1. So when the Federal Government takes that $1 from you, they aren't taking back something they own but something you own. At the point of a gun, even if the gun isn't obviously brandished. That is stealing.

I am a secular humanist I don't concern my self with hell or wealth.

And yet, here you are doing just that.

By the way, we all know why secular humanists hate the Bible (and religion in general). Because religions give a definite standard of right and wrong. So isn't it ironic that in 1961 the Supreme Court ruled that Secular Humanism is a religion when a humanist group filed for a tax exemption on that basis? Doesn't that seem a wee bit hypocritical on their part?

 

[Spindrift]

It hardly ends there. Because the people who form, maintain and expand a government and it's powers are living entities, and God will surely judge them. The people who write the laws are living entities, and God will judge them. The people who enforce the laws are living entities, so God will judge them too.

The Bible doesn't say much about government but the Bible does indicate that God is the ultimate authority. It seems to me that a human government usurps God's authority when it demands one obey laws contrary to God's Commandments.

So we should have laws against coveting your neighbors wife?

The Bible does not forbid paying taxes, in fact it seems to encourages us to pay taxes. But at some point taxes must become stealing. Right?

WRONG, that simply does not follow.

By the way, we all know why secular humanists hate the Bible (and religion in general). Because religions give a definite standard of right and wrong. So isn't it ironic that in 1961 the Supreme Court ruled that Secular Humanism is a religion when a humanist group filed for a tax exemption on that basis? Doesn't that seem a wee bit hypocritical on their part?

People hate religion, in general, because its definitions of right and wrong are self-serving moving targets. They pick and choose whatever parts of the Bible they want and ignore the inconvenient parts (stoned anyone lately?). And then they can't give a rational reason for which is which.

 

[BeAChooser]

Furthermore, the capitalism that America is built on clearly contradicts the Bible which says that people should not charge interest when lending money. Deuteronomy 23:19-20 et al.

The edict against charging "interest" wasn't as broad as you seem to think.

http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/qna57.htm

Exodus 22:25-27 "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy [afflicted and/or humbled, through true poverty or need], do not be like a moneylender [usurer]; charge him no interest [usury]. 26 If you take your neighbor's cloak as a pledge, return it to him by sunset, 27 because his cloak is the only covering he has for his body. What else will he sleep in? When he cries out to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate. (NIV)

The whole subject of usurers and usury cannot be divorced from the primary issue; the poor and needy. Adding more weight to its root word, that earlier literal definition of this practice could be expanded to "something maliciously bitten off." While God permitted His people to loan money to those that were poor, God did not want any item taken in long-term pledge (as was common practice on all loans in that day) and He did not want any interest charged to them. As such, this was God saying, if you can't give it to them, at least don't profit from the poor.

… snip …

When the clarifications of our passage in Exodus are taken into account, we can better define usury as "the act of charging interest, or taking an item pledge, from someone who is poor," and a usurer as one who does this. Once we understand this scriptural definition, later passages that refer to this word or practice are much easier to understand. For example:

Deuteronomy 23:19-20 Do not charge your brother interest [usury], whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest. 20 You may charge a foreigner interest [usury], but not a brother Israelite, so that the LORD your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess. (NIV)

This passage in Deuteronomy doesn't contradict the earlier one by now saying that you can't charge interest to any other Israeli, it is merely clarifying the earlier passage, making it clear that it was permissible to charge interest to any foreigner. In fact, prior to Deuteronomy, Leviticus also makes it very clear that usury was in regards to poor countrymen.

Leviticus 25:35-38 "'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest [usury] of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest [usury] or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God. (NIV)

 

[mhaze]

So we should have laws against coveting your neighbors wife?


WRONG, that simply does not follow......

Likely because you made up the presupposition, misleading as if it was a comment or a takeoff on BAC's.

Your comment is really, really weird. Just curious, where do you get the idea that religion (except Islam of course) directs specific law of any sort to be implemented?

(I'm not saying some particular advocates in those religions don't try to get laws passed which reflect their beliefs on one thing or another.)

 

[Spindrift]

Likely because you made up the presupposition, misleading as if it was a comment or a takeoff on BAC's.

Really have no idea what that sentence means.

Your comment is really, really weird. Just curious, where do you get the idea that religion (except Islam of course) directs specific law of any sort to be implemented?

I was responding to what BAC wrote:

The Bible doesn't say much about government but the Bible does indicate that God is the ultimate authority. It seems to me that a human government usurps God's authority when it demands one obey laws contrary to God's Commandments.

 

[Biscuit]

Appears he has company.

Ouch! I admit I was mistaken, I did not mean to lie out of malice. I own a coffee shop and sometimes I repeat things because I don't always have time to research it... but I do now!

I would ask if these are the NPS standard rules or special rules for this event? I looked through this document and could not find any prohibition of signs or guns. Only this clause came close,

No stun guns, ammunition, knives, mace or aerosol cans, suitcases, duffel bags or backpacks larger than 18”x16”x8," strollers; food (except for a
small quantity of sealed food items; beverages (except water or baby
formula in clear plastic containers) or tangible objects that could reasonably
threaten public safety and security.

http://www.nps.gov/nama/parkmgmt/upload/NAMAcompendium1.pdf

I am pretty sure anti second amendment Obama signed the law allowing guns in national parks. So I have to ask how these guidelines were drawn up? Obviously Beck made the appeal for no political signs, as it was non partisan, I wonder if between Beck's people and the NPS they decided it would be good to ban guns to this ticketed event. I assume both would have their reasons for wanting that.

Either way these were special rules for this event. I am glad it was peaceful.

As for the people in the stupid shirts. That was for fun not an indictment of the entire event. My favorite was the one with Obama in a communist hat saying, "I want YOU to be a socialist."

 

[Lurker]

The Bible does not forbid paying taxes, in fact it seems to encourages us to pay taxes. But at some point taxes must become stealing. Right? Perhaps that point is a tax rate around 10% because in the Bible the prophet Samuel tells the people (1 Samuel 8) who are demanding a new king that

In fact, the Bible mentions "a tenth" as being the "tithe" to kings repeatedly. Abraham gave 10% to the priest-king Melchizedek. Abraham became very wealthy, but never seems to have given more than 10% of what he made to the king. In Deuteronomy it talks of the Israelites setting aside 10% and the 10% wasn't optional giving but mandatory. A tax. So perhaps anything above 10% should be viewed as something God would consider stealing, rather than just a "tax".

So anything less than 10% would be stealing from the king as well? What about deductions of mortgage interest or children? Am I stealing when I deduct from my income in order to pay less tax?

Then again, the Bible speaks of tithing 10% to kings. We don't have a King, we have a democratic republic. I would imagine God sees a difference between the two. If we vote to tithe more is that sinning even if we choose to give more?

 

[Lurker]

This passage in Deuteronomy doesn't contradict the earlier one by now saying that you can't charge interest to any other Israeli, it is merely clarifying the earlier passage, making it clear that it was permissible to charge interest to any foreigner. In fact, prior to Deuteronomy, Leviticus also makes it very clear that usury was in regards to poor countrymen.

So God is a racist?

 

[Biscuit]

And yet, here you are doing just that.

Got me there, just having a bit of fun really. Was going to tie this whole thing into how Beck is Mormon and all the nonsense that goes with it. However in my short time on this earth I have heard religious people use the bible to justify all manner of behavior I find abhorrent from racism to murder. Anyone can spend enough time with the bible and come up with a reason for doing anything they like. It is full of contradictions and a copulation of work over several hundred years and untold editions and translations. At the end of the day christians will just scream "FAITH" as the reason they know they are right.

No more religious discussions for me in this thread.

Now back to the SHOWDOWN! We know Beck won in size but what other yardsticks should we use to determine a wienner uh... I mean winner.

Who was more christian?
Who had the best lines?
Who had the most divine gaggle of geese?

 

[Cicero]

Ouch! I admit I was mistaken, I did not mean to lie out of malice. I own a coffee shop and sometimes I repeat things because I don't always have time to research it... but I do now!

I would ask if these are the NPS standard rules or special rules for this event? I looked through this document and could not find any prohibition of signs or guns. Only this clause came close,

That NPS link is from November, 2006. At that time, D.C. residents were already prohibited from owning or carrying handguns. That law wasn't overturned until March 2007 by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in Parker v. District of Columbia. The ruling was upheld in June 2008 by the Supreme Court of the United States in District of Columbia v. Heller. That is why The NPS currently states:

Prohibited Items

DO NOT BRING ANY SORT OF WEAPON, INCLUDING A POCKET KNIFE
•Tents/canopies/structures
• Glass containers
• Alcoholic beverages
• Firearms (real or simulated) • Ammunition
• Explosives or incendiary devices of any kind (including fireworks)
• Knives, blades, or sharp objects of any length
• No staking of grounds
• No digging or trenching
• No attachments to existing landscaping
• No firearms or explosive devices, no open fires