Should we try Tsarnaev in the USA?

[triforcharity]

Rights are bestowed and based on whether you play by the rules.

Really? I must have missed that in civics class, and so did our Justice system. You're only going to lose rights, AFTER you're convicted. Never before.

The right to a fair trial only means that depending on the results do you continue to enjoy those rights freely, in essence they are taken away from you.

No.

We are rapidly on our way to becoming a third world country from an economic stand point, in case you didn't notice.

Irrelevant.

Christian charity is usually only extended in direct proportion to the monetary and emotional cost for the said christian.

I disagree.

 

[triforcharity]

A few years ago there was a case in the US where a car ran into and killed some pedestrians.
Enraged bystanders dragged the driver and passenger out of the car and beat them to death.

I remember this. IIRC, the people involved with the lynch mob, were arrested. Do you remember the state this happened in? I can't seem to find it.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Rights are bestowed and based on whether you play by the rules.

The rights of the accused, by definition, apply to those accused of committing crimes. Some of those people have indeed committed crimes, and yet they are still entitled to those rights.

I think many people confuse revenge and justice.

 

[newyorkguy]

We are rapidly on our way to becoming a third world country from an economic stand point, in case you didn't notice.

...I must admit I didn't. From here on the other side of the Atlantic the USA still looks like a mighty economic empire.

You have to understand, we Americans have quite the flair for the dramatic.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

BTW, the media are making much of the issue of him not having received his Miranda Warnings. It's not a sign that he will be tried as an enemy combatant, or any such a thing. It's most likely because he was unconscious when they took him into custody, and since then has been sedated and intubated (so can't speak). I doubt the issue will come up, because the case against him isn't likely to hinge on a confession or other self-incriminating statement from him. There's certainly a lot we'd like to know from him (the how and the why), but there's ample evidence to convict him without him ever saying a word.

[ETA: And before anyone questions him, you can bet he will be informed of his rights. I blame TV for the misperception that if Miranda Rights aren't read the moment a person is taken into custody, that the suspect can't possibly be informed of those rights in a timely manner.]

And it's a high enough profile case that we certainly won't proceed without making sure he has adequate legal counsel. This is exactly the type of case where you want to dot every i and cross every t before going forward.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You have to understand, we Americans have quite the flair for the dramatic.

I was going to ask Jodie what specific characteristics of a third world country (or third world economy) we were displaying, but I think you're right. It's just meaningless bluster. I think she might mean nothing more that the U.S. might someday stop being the largest and most influential national economy on the planet. There's a lot of space between that status and being a "third world country".

 

[triforcharity]

JTJ, you're correct. My speculation is that they wanted to question him about the possibility of more bombs, or bombs that are left somewhere (house, apartment, hotel, car parking lot, etc) or it they were working alone, or if they had others in on the plan. That would be my speculation, as it would make sense to want to know that type of information.

 

[newyorkguy]

Even persons convicted of crimes, while incarcerated, still have some rights.

Even the most chronic or hardened inmates have basic rights that are protected by the U.S. Constitution.

Link

It's baffling to me how many Americans somehow never quite seem to fully grasp what our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, the basic beliefs of our democratic society, are all about.

Some years ago a survey was done with a group of American citizens. They were read passages from our Bill of Rights and then asked if they knew what document the passages were from. Many did not. They were then asked to identify the most likely source from a list of choices. Most chose, "Communist manifesto."

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

JTJ, you're correct. My speculation is that they wanted to question him about the possibility of more bombs, or bombs that are left somewhere (house, apartment, hotel, car parking lot, etc) or it they were working alone, or if they had others in on the plan. That would be my speculation, as it would make sense to want to know that type of information.

I haven't followed the details of the arrest, but has he even been conscious and able to speak at any moment since he was taken into custody?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Even persons convicted of crimes, while incarcerated, still have some rights.

And of course the rights in question here (the rights of the accused) pertain to anyone accused of a crime, even someone previously convicted of a crime.

 

[newyorkguy]

I haven't followed the details of the arrest, but has he even been conscious and able to speak at any moment since he was taken into custody?

Supposedly he has not been able to speak at all due to a gunshot wound to his throat he suffered earlier Friday during the initial confrontation with police.

He was also reported to have a second serious gunshot wound, and to have lost a lot of blood as he lay in the boat Friday afternoon. This is speculation on my part, but I get the impression that he was pretty much out of it by the time police took him into custody Friday evening.

 

[Garrison]

If they did that it would create a field day for the conspiracy theorists. Try him and convict him like any other murderer.

 

[Toke]

I was going to ask Jodie what specific characteristics of a third world country (or third world economy) we were displaying, but I think you're right. It's just meaningless bluster. I think she might mean nothing more that the U.S. might someday stop being the largest and most influential national economy on the planet. There's a lot of space between that status and being a "third world country".

Well, you are kind of approaching the wealth distribution of one. It is likely to have consequences for the quality of labour available.

I remember this. IIRC, the people involved with the lynch mob, were arrested. Do you remember the state this happened in? I can't seem to find it.

No, sorry. Just that it was in some big city. I read of it years ago and was reminded by the demands here for swift justice without all that troublesome paperwork and rights.

 

[triforcharity]

I haven't followed the details of the arrest, but has he even been conscious and able to speak at any moment since he was taken into custody?

Not that has been reported. He's apparently unable to talk due to the gun shot to his neck, but as far as conscious, I don't know.

 

[newyorkguy]

Supposedly he has not been able to speak at all due to a gunshot wound to his throat he suffered earlier Friday during the initial confrontation with police.

I just wanted to add, I don't know where I read this -- it may've been in the LA Times article, not really sure -- but one law enforcement source said that the gunshot damage to Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's throat may leave him permanently unable to speak. Maybe it destroyed his voicebox?

Also

CBS News correspondent John Miller reported that there appears to be a bullet wound in the back of Tsarnaev's neck, in addition to the bullet wound in his leg. "But [investigators are] saying that wound to the back of the neck is very possibly [from] a suicide attempt. They say it appears from the wound that he might have stuck a gun in his mouth, and fired and actually just went out the back of his neck without killing him."

Link

I know John Miller's reporting quite well as he worked for many years as an investigative reporter for WNEW-AM radio and WNBC-TV in New York City where I live. He also worked as a public affairs officer for NYPD, LAPD and the FBI. So he has a lot of contacts in law enforcement. I take anything Miller reports as being pretty reliable.

 

[triforcharity]

No, sorry. Just that it was in some big city. I read of it years ago and was reminded by the demands here for swift justice without all that troublesome paperwork and rights.

It's ok, as I do remember the case. I also recall hearing that those who beat the driver were charged with 2nd deg. murder. Our justice system works*, people just have to give it time to do it.


*Typically. No justice system is perfect.

 

[Toke]

We have things like that here too.
A few days ago a house were burned down.
The owner were a 48 year old man who had been brought to hospital along with two (unrelated) girls 15 and 14. The 15 year were dead from an amphetamine overdose the two others survived.

Guess is that somebody took their dislike of his habits/hospitality out on his house.

 

[newyorkguy]

Two items of interest from a New York Times article today:

On Saturday morning, federal prosecutors were drafting a criminal complaint against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who was wounded in the leg and neck. An official said the criminal complaint would most likely include a constellation of charges stemming from both the bombings and the shooting, possibly including the use of weapons of mass destruction, an applicable charge for the detonation of a bomb. That charge, the official said, carries a maximum penalty of death.

And also,

...Investigators found five pipe bombs and three grenades after the firefight Friday...

That raises an interesting question in my mind, something I have wondered about: did the Tsarnaev brothers plan additional bombings? Sounds like they might've.

Link to Times' article

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Not that has been reported. He's apparently unable to talk due to the gun shot to his neck, but as far as conscious, I don't know.

And I presume he wasn't shot after he was in custody!

So he couldn't possibly have been given a proper Miranda warning, and he of course couldn't have made any potentially self-incriminating statements. I wonder why the news media are making such a fuss about this? If something is impossible to do, surely there's no moral or legal requirement to do it.

 

[Hazel]

Even persons convicted of crimes, while incarcerated, still have some rights.

Link

It's baffling to me how many Americans somehow never quite seem to fully grasp what our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, the basic beliefs of our democratic society, are all about.

Some years ago a survey was done with a group of American citizens. They were read passages from our Bill of Rights and then asked if they knew what document the passages were from. Many did not. They were then asked to identify the most likely source from a list of choices. Most chose, "Communist manifesto."

I remember that. It's a sad commentary on our educational system, isn't it? But, that's another story not for this thread.