Should Ukraine give up?

Ryokan said:
ETA: An interesting thing is that Russia took part in that campaign. Their camp was just a short drive from ours. I have seen American and Russian troops conducting joint patrols. Times change.
Click to expand...

I saw a video from just a day or two ago showing a joint Russian/Turkish patrol in Syria - they are still doing them at least as of a few days ago. Crazy to think that still goes on when Russian troops are getting hit pretty hard by Turkey-built drones. International politics can make for some strange situations.
 
crescent said:
They seemed to be encouraging Ukraine to take the "offer" submitted by Russia. Total Ukrainian disarmament, no entry into NATO or the EU, Ukrainian recognition of the annexation of Crimea and the independence of Donbass.

I think that many of the older generation view Russia as inevitable.

They cheered Ukraine on at the beginning because they thought it would be short war anyway.
They cheered Ukraine on for the first week, because they thought Ukraine was going out in a blaze of glory.
They block transfer of aircraft because they think Ukraine will lose anyway and they think it might take too long to train up the Ukrainians, even on Soviet designs (because they've been upgraded with NATO-design avionics that Ukraine didn't have access to).
Now they propose surrender because they don't want to draw out the suffering that they feel will just lead to an inevitable win by Russia.

Russia is not inevitable. Russia may win this war - but that is far from certain. Very, very far from certain.

Ukraine is not collapsing and does not seem to be near collapse. Their military is bigger now than it was when the war started. This will go on as long as Putin is in power, and that could be for years - but Ukraine looks more and more able to keep up the fight for some time, years if need be. The NATO nations and other nations that work with them need to switch gears to accept that and start planning accordingly.
Click to expand...

The Israeli interest is more complex than taking sides. Naftali Bennett might well be in over his head, but any attempt at negotiating peace has to be worth trying. There is a large Jewish population of 400,000 in Ukraine. Many Russian oligarchs also have Israeli citizenship. For example, UK-sanctioned oligarch, Roman Abramovich. The reason is partly due to the fact that persons taking up Israeli citizenship and investing funds in Israel get a ten-year tax break and no questions asked as to where the monies come from. Few countries have said, no, to Russian oligarch money coming in, even if the said oligarch hardly ever spends time in your country. Abramovich hasn't been in the UK for quite a while, yet owns 70 properties and a football club. I am guessing Bennett is trying to broker some kind of compromise for the Israeli interests.

Israel’s sensitivity over the crisis is down to a number of factors. Most importantly, it is concerned for the safety of the large Jewish communities in both Russia and Ukraine. Both countries have long and bloody histories of antisemitic persecution that are hard to forget.

Then there is the matter of Russia’s military presence in Syria, across the border from Israel, and the concern that coming out in favour of Ukraine could disrupt the agreement with Moscow that allows Israel to continue carrying out regular airstrikes against Iranian targets while the Russians look the other way.

Another significant consideration is the large proportion of immigrants from both Russia and Ukraine currently living in Israel. A fifth of the population are either immigrants or the children of immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
Click to expand...
THE TIMES

However, Putin's ambitions are different from Israel's. After all, Russia has been associated with helping Iran, whom I dare say Israel wouldn't mind flattening.
 
So there is a million things that would be different like not being able to vote for a president of Ukraine and Russian army on the streets

But if we entertained the idea that didn't matter

What ways does Ukraine law differ from Russia laws? Would there be major changes....other than the obvious occupation?
 
Craig4 said:
Why? What value is the word of a Putin associate? What difference does the word of a dog vying to be the first in line to hump Putin's leg make? If Ukrainians cared what the your Putin puppet said they wouldn't have overthrown him.
Click to expand...
I believe that censorship is bad.

In view of current circumstances, I also think that Twitter should lift Donald Trump's suspension (he has a somewhat tougher line with respect to Ukraine and Putin than Joe Biden).

I heard him interviewed by his friend Sean Hannity of Fox News yesterday, it wasn't too bad:
Trump speaks out on confronting Russian aggression
Mar. 11, 2022 - 6:58 - Former President Trump weighs in on the Russia-Ukraine war in an exclusive interview on 'Hannity.'
Click to expand...
(https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300303044001#sp=show-clips)

Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) is a former (pro-Russian) president of Ukraine. He may not like seeing his country destroyed by Russian bombs, and he might want to say publicly a few things about this on Twitter. This might have a positive influence on Putin, who might decide to stop his attack.
 
Michel H said:
I believe that censorship is bad.

In view of current circumstances, I also think that Twitter should lift Donald Trump's suspension (he has a somewhat tougher line with respect to Ukraine and Putin than Joe Biden).

I heard him interviewed by his friend Sean Hannity of Fox News yesterday, it wasn't too bad:

(https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300303044001#sp=show-clips)

Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) is a former (pro-Russian) president of Ukraine. He may not like seeing his country destroyed by Russian bombs, and he might want to say publicly a few things about this on Twitter. This might have a positive influence on Putin, who might decide to stop his attack.
Click to expand...

This is so full of total crap It's hard to begin.
But I will take the "Trump is tougher on Russia then Biden " for a starting point.
But,man, Michale H is rapidly getting a place as one of the top BS spewers ever on this site.
 
Ryokan said:
The intervention in Bosnia was literally NATO.

I was there. We were under NATO command. IFOR, and later SFOR, were NATO forces. We wore NATO symbols on our uniforms. The medal I got has the NATO star on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_intervention_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
...
Click to expand...

I was "there", too, in 1993. It was Nato operation under UN mandate (Security Council resolutions covered it). I got 50 Deutschmark extra per active day out of UN funds. ("There" in quotes because I was merely in the area, with the NATO E-3A Awacs)
 
I mean if the UNSC agrees, it makes sense to have NATO do the work, since it's already set up to coordinate joint operations among its members, especially in Europe itself.

But it doesn't have to be a NATO operation, then or now. Poland, Germany, France, and the UK could get together for a Ukraine intervention, without having to put on their NATO hats.
 
Michel H said:
I believe that censorship is bad.

In view of current circumstances, I also think that Twitter should lift Donald Trump's suspension (he has a somewhat tougher line with respect to Ukraine and Putin than Joe Biden).

I heard him interviewed by his friend Sean Hannity of Fox News yesterday, it wasn't too bad:

(https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300303044001#sp=show-clips)

Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) is a former (pro-Russian) president of Ukraine. He may not like seeing his country destroyed by Russian bombs, and he might want to say publicly a few things about this on Twitter. This might have a positive influence on Putin, who might decide to stop his attack.
Click to expand...
Are you ******* joking? He couldn't even get Trump to condemn Russia, and he really tried!

The only possible positive to Trump being President right now is that Putin might think he's even crazier than himself. Problem is that Trump thinks Putin IS A ******* GENIUS!

Trump has a tough line with Russia? Holy cow man, Trump bent over for Russia the entire time he was "President". Thanks for the laugh!!!
 
Michel H said:
I believe that censorship is bad.

In view of current circumstances, I also think that Twitter should lift Donald Trump's suspension (he has a somewhat tougher line with respect to Ukraine and Putin than Joe Biden).

I heard him interviewed by his friend Sean Hannity of Fox News yesterday, it wasn't too bad:

(https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300303044001#sp=show-clips)

Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) is a former (pro-Russian) president of Ukraine. He may not like seeing his country destroyed by Russian bombs, and he might want to say publicly a few things about this on Twitter. This might have a positive influence on Putin, who might decide to stop his attack.
Click to expand...

Who cares what his kind likes? Do you really think Putin's dog will have an influence.
 
Michel H said:
I believe that censorship is bad.

In view of current circumstances, I also think that Twitter should lift Donald Trump's suspension (he has a somewhat tougher line with respect to Ukraine and Putin than Joe Biden).

I heard him interviewed by his friend Sean Hannity of Fox News yesterday, it wasn't too bad:

(https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300303044001#sp=show-clips)

Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) is a former (pro-Russian) president of Ukraine. He may not like seeing his country destroyed by Russian bombs, and he might want to say publicly a few things about this on Twitter. This might have a positive influence on Putin, who might decide to stop his attack.
Click to expand...

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of civility
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Michel H said:
I believe that censorship is bad.

In view of current circumstances, I also think that Twitter should lift Donald Trump's suspension (he has a somewhat tougher line with respect to Ukraine and Putin than Joe Biden).

I heard him interviewed by his friend Sean Hannity of Fox News yesterday, it wasn't too bad:

(https://video.foxnews.com/v/6300303044001#sp=show-clips)

Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) is a former (pro-Russian) president of Ukraine. He may not like seeing his country destroyed by Russian bombs, and he might want to say publicly a few things about this on Twitter. This might have a positive influence on Putin, who might decide to stop his attack.
Click to expand...

It's okay to censor Trump supporters. They aren't people. They aren't like us. They aren't as good as Americans. Trump supporters are inferior to real Americans. Hannity isn't an American. He is less than an American. It's okay to limit their kind. We're not censoring people. We're censoring something less than people.

Exchanging oxygen and having an opposable thumb doesn't make you fully human. Putin, Trump, Carlson, Hannity aren't people and aren't deserving of the implied protections therein implied.
 
Last edited:
I think Ukraine should accept the following peace terms:

-no NATO membership.

-Crimea, Donbas districts belong to Russia.

-no nuclear weapons.

-speaking Russian in schools must be allowed again.

-Russian made one of Ukraine's official languages.




Anything more than this would just not be acceptable.
 
Hercules56 said:
I think Ukraine should accept the following peace terms:

-no NATO membership.

-Crimea, Donbas districts belong to Russia.

-no nuclear weapons.

-speaking Russian in schools must be allowed again.

-Russian made one of Ukraine's official languages.

Anything more than this would just not be acceptable.
Click to expand...

FIFY. No. Ukraine is an independent democratic country. It can do what it likes, without having to seek Russian approval.
 
Vixen said:
FIFY. No. Ukraine is an independent democratic country. It can do what it likes, without having to seek Russian approval.
Click to expand...

Why did you leave the other 'demands' to stand?

As you say, Ukraine is an independent democratic country, why should they give in to anything Russia wants?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why did you leave the other 'demands' to stand?

As you say, Ukraine is an independent democratic country, why should they give in to anything Russia wants?
Click to expand...

I was aware when I passed through Gdansk that Russian is still a second language in Poland. Whilst of course useful, it could be optional in schools rather than compulsory. Language is a key tool of hegemony. It is a tool of self-identity. Making Ukrainians speak/read Russian is a form of oppression.
 
In a couple of posts we've gone from implying Russian was banned in schools to implying it's compulsory. Does anyone know what its status actually is (or was pre-invasion)?
 
Vixen said:
Making Ukrainians speak/read Russian is a form of oppression.
Click to expand...

Making Ukrainians whose mother tongue is Russian speak/read Ukrainian is the exact same form of oppression.

I thought that granting Russian a legal standing in regions where it is in fact a significant minority (almost everywhere) or even majority language really goes without saying, a nobrainer. Giving up arms, Donbas - not so much.
 
Hercules56 said:
I think Ukraine should accept the following peace terms:

-no NATO membership.

-Crimea, Donbas districts belong to Russia.

-no nuclear weapons.

-speaking Russian in schools must be allowed again.

-Russian made one of Ukraine's official languages.




Anything more than this would just not be acceptable.
Click to expand...

Pretty clear that Putin wants all of Ukraine, pal.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
If Putin gets away unpunished for his aggression, then the West has signed it;s own death warrant. Putin will not stop.
Besided, why the hell should Ukraine ..or anyone..ever trust Putin again.
We have a new Hitler on our hands,and some people just do not want to face up to the reality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom