• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Should scientists debate creationists?

Should scientists debate creationists?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 40 32.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 68 55.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 14 11.5%

  • Total voters
    122
  • Poll closed .
If someone believes that gremlins on flying unicorns drag the sun across the sky, it is going to offend them when you point out anything negative about that belief. Offending them isn't the intent, but it is going to happen anyway. More popular religious beliefs are NO DIFFERENT than the flying unicorn thing. Pointing that fact out is also going to be offensive to some people... but it isn't the intent then either.

Some blacks will be offended if you bring up the idea that affirmative action isn't a good idea. Some Republicans will be offended if you criticize G.W. Bush in any way. That's no excuse for being deliberately offensive.

If you call blacks n***** when discussing the problems with AA or if you refer to Republicans as facists when complaining about Bush's use of executive privilege, you have now offended those who might have been willing to listen to your arguments. Not a winning strategy IMO.
 
Some blacks will be offended if you bring up the idea that affirmative action isn't a good idea. Some Republicans will be offended if you criticize G.W. Bush in any way. That's no excuse for being deliberately offensive.

If you call blacks n***** when discussing the problems with AA or if you refer to Republicans as facists when complaining about Bush's use of executive privilege, you have now offended those who might have been willing to listen to your arguments. Not a winning strategy IMO.
If I call religious people a bunch of nasty names, that's intentionally offensive. To point out the flaws in the position may likely also offend, but that doesn't make it off-limits, or at least it shouldn't.
 
So it is that, "When one person believes something silly, we call it delusion. When a lot of people believe it, we call it religion"?

We are not discussing the correctness or incorrectness of the beliefs but what is offensive and inoffensive. You, or Joe, asked what was so offensive about equating belief in pixies to belief in god or gods. The fact that belief in god is a general convention for most of society is one of the reasons that equation with belief in pixies causes offense.

Belief in pixies and belief in god/gods share one potential attribute -- nonexistence. That does not mean that pixies and god are equivalent. Belief in pixies carries with it a particular negative connotation in our society that belief in god/gods does not carry. By equating the two you transfer the negative connotations of pixie belief to god belief. So people who believe in god may find that equation offensive.

Again, this has nothing whatever to do with the fact that god exists or doesn't exist. I don't find the equation offensive, but I can certainly see how others might.
 
If I call religious people a bunch of nasty names, that's intentionally offensive. To point out the flaws in the position may likely also offend, but that doesn't make it off-limits, or at least it shouldn't.

Pointing out flaws in a position is not offensive if not done in an offensive manner. Calling someone on his or her beliefs is not off limits in my book unless that person expressly wishes not to be challenged. I'm afraid there is not much that can be done about such people. Unfortunately there are many, many of them out there. And they tend to be easily offended.
 
We are not discussing the correctness or incorrectness of the beliefs but what is offensive and inoffensive. You, or Joe, asked what was so offensive about equating belief in pixies to belief in god or gods. The fact that belief in god is a general convention for most of society is one of the reasons that equation with belief in pixies causes offense.

In other words, it would be ok if one person held the silly belief, but since a lot of people hold the silly belief, it has special status.

The reason it is off-limits is because a lot of people believe it. Similarly, the reason it is called religion is because a lot of people believe it.

It's the same thing.
 
In other words, it would be ok if one person held the silly belief, but since a lot of people hold the silly belief, it has special status.

The reason it is off-limits is because a lot of people believe it. Similarly, the reason it is called religion is because a lot of people believe it.

It's the same thing.

No.

Calling people's beliefs into question is not off limits, as I said earlier. This isn't an issue of what is right and wrong, but what is felt to be offensive and not felt to be offensive.

Societies exist for our mutual benefit, not for the purpose of uncovering the truth of the universe. Conversations such as this are part of normal social intercourse. We owe a certain level of respect to other members of our society. We needn't believe what they believe, but we also shouldn't go out of our way to offend them. There are many people who believe in god. Equating god, in our society, with a trivial mythological creature (in our society) -- whether or not the equation has merit from the viewpoint of exposing the non-existence of both entities -- is considered offensive by many members of our society.

That does not mean that we cannot discuss the existence or non-existence of god. There are simply social rules that polite society follows.

I know why cyborg made the comparison. He can be pretty damn funny at times. I even think this is one of those times. But if you cannot see how someone else could find that comparison offensive, then I'm not sure what else there is to discuss.

If one person holds a silly belief it is offensive to belittle that belief for that person. It is easier to get away with making fun of a single person since there is only one person to call you on it. But it is still offensive to that person when you belittle his or her beliefs. Belittling the beliefs of a large number of people is simply going to create more trouble because there are more people who will call you on it. And that creates more of a social concern.

There is a difference between belittling someone's beliefs and challenging those beliefs. Challenges are fine. Insults are generally frowned upon.

Ideas don't carry special statuses. There are groups of people who will want to shout you down even for challenging their beliefs, but that is wrong. Offense can not be used to limit free speech as far as governments are concerned. The only limit on free speech (governmentally) should be harm -- actual physical harm, not the squishy psychological kind. Individual institutions, however, are not bound by the same contraints and can limit speech as they see fit. I don't think they should, but it is within their power to do so.
 
I know why cyborg made the comparison. He can be pretty damn funny at times. I even think this is one of those times. But if you cannot see how someone else could find that comparison offensive, then I'm not sure what else there is to discuss.

A lot of humour is based on the pretence of offence.

The funny stuff at least.
 
Trying to reason with a Fundy is like trying to teach an idiot advanced algebra and trigonometry. No sense in debating those ignorant fundys. They get off topic and are all in all complete asses.
 
Calling people's beliefs into question is not off limits, as I said earlier. This isn't an issue of what is right and wrong, but what is felt to be offensive and not felt to be offensive.

You do say that calling people's religious beliefs into question by comparing them to belief in pixies is off-limits, though, because it is offensive.

OTOH, what if it were someone who believed in aliens? Would it be offensive to compare that to belief in pixies?

What about those people who believe in pixies? Would it be fair to compare their belief to Luna Lovegood's belief in the Crumpled-Horn Snorckack? (from Harry Potter)

If the reason it causes offense is because god is a "general concept for most of society" then comparing belief in aliens with belief in pixies should not be offensive, right?
 
So, you concede that it is an accurate comparison?

I agree it's an accurate comparison, although I'm curious why you use the word "concede". I never questioned the accuracy of the comparison.

For more, see Ichneumonwasp's discussion. It's quite good.
 
You do say that calling people's religious beliefs into question by comparing them to belief in pixies is off-limits, though, because it is offensive.

OTOH, what if it were someone who believed in aliens? Would it be offensive to compare that to belief in pixies?

What about those people who believe in pixies? Would it be fair to compare their belief to Luna Lovegood's belief in the Crumpled-Horn Snorckack? (from Harry Potter)

If the reason it causes offense is because god is a "general concept for most of society" then comparing belief in aliens with belief in pixies should not be offensive, right?


Offensive speech is not off limits. It is simply offensive. You can decide that you want to be offensive and that's fine. Just accept the fact that others will probably tell you that you are being offensive. They may also wish to discontinue speaking with you in the future if you are often offensive to them. That is what Beth was trying to tell you. No one here, as far as I can tell, is trying to limit speech. You are perfectly free to be as offensive toward others as you wish. As far as I could see Beth was simply trying to warn against the communication blocks that arise from offensive speech.

Nothing is really off limits in speech except actual harm -- though there are limits in this forum that come into play long before real harm is done. Direct insults are off limits for instance.

As far as comparing belief in pixies and the Crumpled-Horn Snorckack, that depends with whom you are discussing the matter. I am not offended by the comparison (just as I am not offended by the pixie-god comparison), and I don't think most people would be. Someone who really believed that pixies were tormenting him on a nightly basis and who also believed that Luna is just a fictional character and her belief in the Snorckack is silly would probably be offended, though. You could get away with that comparison in most every conversation of your life, but you might get called on it in one in a billion. Same goes with comparing pixies and aliens. It depends on the particular beliefs of the person with whom you are speaking.

Let's get real here for a minute. We compare belief in pixies to belief in god specifically because it is offensive to believers. As cyborg said that's what makes it funny. I think it is much more honest to say, "Yeah, it's offensive and I meant it that way. Get over it" than to pretend that no one should find that type of speech offensive. Offense is a personal matter based on personal feeling. I prefer to avoid it in most situations because it tends to be a block to communication, but there are situations when I'm perfectly willing to offend to make a point. And there are situations in which I just lose my cool.
 
As I said, I'm still pondering what their agendas are. What are your thoughts on that? I do think that there is some value in simply showing up and defending the concept of evolution, but it really can't be adequately explained or defended in the format of a debate. I think about all that can realisticallly be accomplished is to correct some of the faulty perceptions of what evolution that are frequently held by creationists.

I really am having a hard time finding a positive benefit towards the agenda for scientists in the debates.

To get the creationists to consider the scientists side? I don't think the debates have any positive benefits there. Most of the people who participate and watch these debates have already made up an opinion and with the formatting of the debates it's very hard to dig into the meat of evolution.

Evolutionary awareness? Evolution is already accepted as a fact and while there is always a need for awareness of science, I don't see how debates achieve that anymore than it already is. As before, the formatting usually does not give enough time for a very indepth look at evolution.

To try and correct misconceptions? That could be, but we have to remember the audiences again. The YEC's have mostly made up their mind on the issue, the bible is literally true and the earth was created in 7 days. Anyone else in the debates has probably studied evolution before, at least in class. It's not something new for most people who view the debate.

If I were to give a good reason, it would simply be entertainment. Having the scientists spar with the creationists because it's entertaining to the viewers. That seems to be the only valid reason I can see and if that's what both parties want, then that's a good enough reason for me. But, I don't think that's what the scientists are considering when they debate with creationists.
 
Last edited:
I'm with you wings...
and so what if comparing belief in god to belief in pixies is insulting... it's just the reason why scientists should not debate creationists... they should treat all beliefs with similar lack of evidence similarly no matter how important such beliefs are to some people. They are free to have their delusions, they are not free to expect rational people to defer to their beliefs. Moreover, many people believe because they are afraid not to... eternal torment sounds like a good enough reason to remain ignorant about science, don't you think. When you defer to this nonsense you act like having these beliefs are good and sensible. And sometimes people need to see smart, intelligent, good people who are not cowed by peoples claims of "higher truths". Debate with religion should be treated as debate with any other woo-- it doesn't do anybody any good to pretend that faith is a good way of knowing something... it just keeps people inflicting the ignorance on others.
 
Well apparently employing them as professional geologists will do it, but there aren't enough jobs to go round.

And that didn't even work for Kurt Wise: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/313.asp

I hadn't heard of Denton... he sounds interesting. I think Michael Shermer was a a creationist at one time. And the former preacher who runs FFRF. Many change it seems by asking questions to shore up their faith and then seeking the answer... only to find out that there is no good answer in scripture, revelation, or supposed sacred teachings.

That's the problem with the debate format... the creationists tend to throw out the same dumb loaded questions that show a complete lack of basic understanding of science and there is never any answer when we finally have a chance to ask them to give evidence of their claims. They think obfuscating an understanding of evolution is "winning". They win by keeping themselves and others ignorant and filling in gaps in knowledge with their particular brand of magic. Religion is always sold with spin, semantic games, stories, and appeals to emotion. Facts are secondary to faith.

I suppose people like Francis Collins who are believers would be more respectful of creationist views... but I don't know how many people he's convinced... or if he ever was a creationist. I'm an advocate of treating all religions the way we'd treat Scientology in a scientific debate. When scientists were respectful and nice, the believers just became more audacious and self righteous... like rttjc. I don't think taking creationists seriously is a good idea, but maybe a former creationist could convince me otherwise if respectful debate was the key to his "seeing the light".

I prefer mockery. It may not change minds, but I'm not sure what does. And, at least, it amuses. Relieves frustration.

Plus I think mockery can change minds... the over the top stereotype... parody... I think that may raise consciousness more than it is given credit for. If you can capitalize on young peoples' urge to rebel by getting them to reject the superstitions of authority figures, that could be a good thing for all concerned.

So once again, I vote mockery over debate. Scientists have better things to do than to make creationists look like someone to take seriously.
 
Bart Ehrman... biblical scholar was once a creationist... he believed the bible was the inerrant word of god. But it wasn't debate that changed his mind. It was his effort at learning languages so that he could read god's "inerrant words" in as close to the original as possible. Reading the bible turns a lot of people into agnostics, deists, and atheists it seems.
 
I think mockery is perfectly fine in its place, and this place is better than many. There really is not much else one can do but mock some folks who are so lost in their way of thinking that they cannot see out of the bag -- Kleinman comes to mind.

But I think we should be realistic about parody changing minds. Comedy, jokes, are a way of binding community, much like song. The songs one likes, just like the humor one likes are one of the means of defining a group (He's a metal head, she's an emo, he likes Monty Python, they think Larry the Cable Guy is hilarious). Parody can work to change minds when it serves as a gentle reminder within a group that shares many assumptions but differs on one or two points. I don't think parody works to change minds when there is a radical difference in thought.

And there is a radical difference in thought between most of us and fundies. Science is based on the observable (not necessarily the directly observable, often only observation of consequences) and hence concerns itself with natural phenomena. Religion is based in the unobservable, the sacred, the whatever, that some believe informs and interacts with the natural world but is not itself a part of the natural world. We don't have a language to speak about that world behind the world, so we end up using our ordinary, daily language that concerns the natural world. Since our language is not able to speak properly about the "spiritual/sacred order" we use stories to convey meaning that the bare language itself cannot convey. Stories, by their nature, have a plot and a purpose. They have an end. If you've ever heard someone tell a story that seemed to have no point you probably remember how incredibly irritated you were with them. Stories must have a point. Listen to any fundie long enough and what seems to surface is that they cannot comprehend or will not accept a non-teleological viewpoint. The very language that they use to communicate their deepest concerns is always teleological, story based. We know that we are built this way, as Shermer is fond of saying, story telling apes.

There seems to be, therefore, a fundamental break between these two world views that I don't think parody can bridge. People like Shermer were able to bridge it because he was willing to see from a different perspective. He is an incredibly bright and well-read guy, not your run of the mill schmo who drinks Budweiser with his bros on Friday night and works at the auto shop.

If we want to change minds and educate, then formalized-stand-at-the-podium debates are probably not the best way to go about it. Debates are arranged so as to have winners and losers, not air ideas. If we want to engage in the free flow of ideas for the purpose of discovering and promoting truth in a Habermasian fashion, then debates won't work (at least in that public fashion of a scheduled 1 or 2 hour hashing of a few ideas). They are a side show. It is only through dialogue unfettered by communication blocks that we can move forward. Parody is a block to communication. We use it when communication breaks down and we can't move forward -- just look at what Kleinman does; he cannot argue his point and so mocks everyone around him while Adequate ends up doing the same since he's tired of repeating the same argument over and over which Kleinman won't address. But this sort of forum, in which ideas can be addressed freely and completely are, I think, the best means of bridging the gap.

Parody is fun. I used to use it frequently on another site before coming here. It is a great way of winning the hearts and minds of those already on your side, but I don't think it works to change the minds of people who think in a very different fashion.
 
I really am having a hard time finding a positive benefit towards the agenda for scientists in the debates.
So am I. That's why I finally ended up voting no in the poll. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 
I really am having a hard time finding a positive benefit towards the agenda for scientists in the debates.


I hear two basic ideas expressed about creationists by skeptics.

1. They are to be laughed at and not taken seriously.

2. They are an insidious force who is on the verge of taking control of America and imposing their religion on us.

If you believe number 1, then there is no agenda for scientists in the debates. If you believe number 2, then you have to recognize that there is a political battle going on, and it has to be fought on political terms.

I think the reality is closer to 1 than 2, although the fundies would like it to be number 2. So, the agenda would be to move away from 2, and toward 1. Definitely there is no scientific benefit toward participating in the debates. There might be political benefit, though. It's dangerous, though, because the fundies can get a win-win situation. If you debate, you lend credence to the idea that they are worth debating. If you don't, you lend credence to the idea that you are afraid to debate.

Whether you debate or don't debate, you have to try to avoid either appearance.
 
I hear two basic ideas expressed about creationists by skeptics.

1. They are to be laughed at and not taken seriously.

2. They are an insidious force who is on the verge of taking control of America and imposing their religion on us.

You're right, those are the two basic ideas expressed, but I think the truth is, as it usually is, somewhere in between. I've lived all my life in Kansas. I know the creationists well, though I rarely discuss my beliefs with them. In fact, I usually try to avoid it. They believe what they believe and I'm not going to change their mind and they are not going to change mine. Further, I have to live and work with these people. I want to maintain an amicable relationship. What each of us believes about how the universe came to be does not need to be a source of conflict between us.

In fact, the only place in our society where it does create a conflict is in determining what will be taught in our schools. Believe of not, the majority of fundamentalists in this country - the ones out there living their lives being ordinary people, not the ones preaching to a national audience - just want to raise their kids to believe as they do. If we can work out how to let them do that, they don't really care about what the rest of us teach our kids.

That's one of the main reasons why I am firmly in support of school vouchers, charter schools, etc. I've given the matter a great deal of thought over the past 20 years and I've decided thats the best solution I feel is feasible for our society. Then this debate, and a whole host of other similar devisive issues in our society would simply go away.
 
Last edited:
No, it's really not. Hell, some gods were promoted from pixies.

Don't you actually mean that some pixies were originally Gods, until supplanted by Christianity? and became faries or saints (Brigit especially).

Your point is unchanged though.

Dawkin's point about everyone now being an athiest about Zeus might be a better way of putting the same message across.

Needless* confrontation tends to put people's backs up, so they don't/won't
listen.



*of course that is true, it begs the question of what confrontation is needful , sorry...
 

Back
Top Bottom