Should scientists debate creationists?

[Par]

If secular scientists are so confident, why are they so afraid?

That's an exmple of the false dichotomy fallacy. (Either scientists would debate creationists or they have “something to hide.” A third possibility – that agreeing to debates gives creationism an undeserved veneer of credibility – is even mentioned in the original post.)

 

[rittjc]

Objective? There is nothing objective about creationism and ID. It assumes god from the very beginning. Hardly objective.

That was originally posted to the guy that read the first three words and griped but I forget to include his quote.

Those debating a creationist by definition assume there is no god from the very beginning. You argument is specious.

Intelligent design was formed in an attempt to stop the evolutionists from escaping scientific argument by bringing up biblical references to bail out of trapped positions. Evolutionists tend to use dubious tactics like insults emotion and bringing up biblical references to divert attention to their trapped position. I can tell you have never attended a scientific debate between and IDer/creationist and an evolutionist.

 

[rittjc]

That's an exmple of the false dichotomy fallacy. (Either scientists would debate creationists or they have “something to hide.” A third possibility – that agreeing to debates gives creationism an undeserved veneer of credibility – is even mentioned in the original post.)

Ironic statement since your bias that creationism is not credible prevents you from using objective scientific discourse to define what is or isn't credible. That is pure bigotry and about as illogical and unscientific a comment as you could make.

You overplayed your hand.

 

[rittjc]

If by "renowned" you mean "fawned on by zealots," then sure. Actual hard working scientists, on the other hand, have better things to do than support fairy tales with bad arguments.

If you disagree, you could name the "renowned" scientist in their ranks. Don't worry. I won't hold my breath.

Again, nothing but emotional diatribes. Do you consider yourself a logical thinker or just a big hater who hopes he make points with pointless insults?

 

[Par]

Those debating a creationist by definition assume there is no god from the very beginning.

Tu quoque fallacy (not to mention simply false.)

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Those debating a creationist by definition assume there is no god from the very beginning. You argument is specious.

Uh no. Plenty of people believe in both God and evolution.

 

[rittjc]

Why are you putting the word "secular" in front of "scientist" like that? Don't you know what it means? I would if I used it ten times in one post.

Easy! (too bad the other dude didn't beat you to the question).

By definition a creationist would not debate a creationist to determine whether there is an argument against creation. So logically all that is left is the secularist.

I am surprised you asked such a question. "In an A or B situation, if you are not A, you have to be B".

 

[Par]

Ironic statement since your bias that creationism is not credible prevents you from using objective scientific discourse to define what is or isn't credible. That is pure bigotry and about as illogical and unscientific a comment as you could make.

Tu quoque fallacy (not to mention simply false.) Further, none of this has any bearing on the fact that you committed the false dichotomy fallacy.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Again, nothing but emotional diatribes. Do you consider yourself a logical thinker or just a big hater who hopes he make points with pointless insults?

Please locate the nearest mirror and gaze into it.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I'm looking into my crystal ball.

It's a Sunday, and some guy just heard a positively awesome sermon or pre-service bible study rant about how evolution is wrong and secular scientists are violating Newton's Law. How some of the greatest scientists today KNOW that there was a creator of the universe. But these secular tools of the devil continue to lie, en masse, to our society. Because they are nothing but the worst kind of religious nut, and they are denying the word of god.

Can I hear a hallelujah?

And someone got so fired up, so filled with the spirit, they knew they were going to take this message to the free riding atheists and tell them to stick their science where the lord's sun (which the most renown scientists have confirmed just sits in a firmament over the flat earth) fails to shine.

 

[Apathia]

Originally Posted by strathmeyer

Why are you putting the word "secular" in front of "scientist" like that? Don't you know what it means? I would if I used it ten times in one post.

rittjc replies:

Easy! (too bad the other dude didn't beat you to the question).

By definition a creationist would not debate a creationist to determine whether there is an argument against creation. So logically all that is left is the secularist.

I am surprised you asked such a question. "In an A or B situation, if you are not A, you have to be B".

Michael Shermer:

The problem is that this is not an intellectual exercise, it is an emotional drama. For scientists, the dramatis personae are evolutionists vs creationists, the former of whom have an impregnable fortress of evidence that converges on an unmistakable conclusion; for creationists, however, the evidence is irrelevant. This is a spiritual war, whose combatants are theists vs atheists, spiritualists vs secularists, Christians vs Satanists, godfearing capitalists vs godless communists, good vs evil. With stakes this high, and an audience so stacked, what chance does any scientist have in such a venue? Thus, I now believe it is a mistake for scientists to participate in such debates and I will not do another. Unless there is a subject that is truly debatable (evolution vs creation is not), with a format that is fair, in a forum that is balanced, it only serves to belittle both the magisterium of science and the magisterium of religion.

A virtual microcosm of the OP's point.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

It's a Sunday, and some guy just heard a positively awesome sermon or pre-service bible study rant about how evolution is wrong and secular scientists are violating Newton's Law.

The "why do Atheists get a free ride" thread shows another reason not to debate creationists: You can't get creationists up to speed on one or two centuries of missed science in a debate format.

 

[rittjc]

When you say that's your experience, you are either lying or deluded.
Can you provide just one example of a scientist, in a debate or anywhere, saying evolution 'just happens'?
Or an example of a scientist 'invoking the bible'?
Secularism is a religion? Do you know what 'secularism' means? Use an old fashioned dictionary rather than play fast and loose with the English language.

You want an example of one? Here is one I attended personally:
Dr Duane Gish (creationist) debating Dr Richard Shanks (biology professor at ETSU).

Secularism is a belief that can also be described as physcialism. In other words it rejects super natural (or meta physical) and believes that things can define themselves within by themselves. Worldly. The physical realm created the physical realm. Or as the "noted" scientist Dr Steven Hawking so "eloquently" said "The existence of matter is the result of a random fluctuation of 'nothingness'". For this he is lauded. First there was nothing. Then this thing that did not exist managed to "fluctuate". I am pretty sure that there is no aspect of science that allows the introduction of nothingness into an equation and then postulate that nothing takes actions in a spontaneous manner.

This is the culmination of secular beliefs have the "logical high ground" to push their dogma on society in our schools?

Those of you who are secularist and evolutionist who think you have some strong scientific undergirding will be surprised to find you do not. You merely have a belief that someone in someplace the truth lies and you can trust it though you have never seen it yourself. This is your belief system. This is a religion.

The opposite of Atheism is Theism (look at the greek). They are references to belief systems or religions. Not all religions are theistic. Some have blind faiths in UFOs, some have blind faith that the physical realm can cause itself to exist. Blind religion is blind religion. There is no amount of makeup that make that ugly girl look pretty. Lipstick on a pig is still a pig.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

The "why do Atheists get a free ride" thread shows another reason not to debate creationists: You can't get creationists up to speed on one or two centuries of missed science in a debate format.

 

[rittjc]

Ok, name them. And show evidence that they are some of the world's most renowned scientists.

I will name you one of them. Dr Michael Behe. Probably the worlds foremost expert in microbiology. Don't know of any more famous than him.

 

[Hokulele]

I'm looking into my crystal ball.

It's a Sunday, and some guy just heard a positively awesome sermon or pre-service bible study rant about how evolution is wrong and secular scientists are violating Newton's Law. How some of the greatest scientists today KNOW that there was a creator of the universe. But these secular tools of the devil continue to lie, en masse, to our society. Because they are nothing but the worst kind of religious nut, and they are denying the word of god.

Can I hear a hallelujah?

And someone got so fired up, so filled with the spirit, they knew they were going to take this message to the free riding atheists and tell them to stick their science where the lord's sun (which the most renown scientists have confirmed just sits in a firmament over the flat earth) fails to shine.

I'm thinking someone just lost a school board election/vote.

 

[rittjc]

I'm looking into my crystal ball.

It's a Sunday, and some guy just heard a positively awesome sermon or pre-service bible study rant about how evolution is wrong and secular scientists are violating Newton's Law. How some of the greatest scientists today KNOW that there was a creator of the universe. But these secular tools of the devil continue to lie, en masse, to our society. Because they are nothing but the worst kind of religious nut, and they are denying the word of god.

Can I hear a hallelujah?

And someone got so fired up, so filled with the spirit, they knew they were going to take this message to the free riding atheists and tell them to stick their science where the lord's sun (which the most renown scientists have confirmed just sits in a firmament over the flat earth) fails to shine.

Oh, a Christian hater. Cool, for a second there I thought you were here to debate science.

I don't go church you bigot.

Good counter argument, insults! You atheists have so much scientific background. No wonder you don't want to debate science.

You are the perfect example of what evolutionists and atheists do in debates. Go to insults rather than try to make scientific counter argument. Try to discredit the opponent if you are helpless to counter him.

This is what I am talking about. This is why secularists, evolutionists, and atheists don't want objective disclosure of their position. They are completely vapid and this scream why it is time to start having national debates on the subject so the world can see and make up their own minds rather than having you atheists make it up for them.

Thank you for underscoring my point. I could not have made it any better.

 

[rittjc]

The "why do Atheists get a free ride" thread shows another reason not to debate creationists: You can't get creationists up to speed on one or two centuries of missed science in a debate format.

Last I heard, Newton's Laws are still valid. Did you miss the last two centuries?

 

[Miss Anthrope]

This is the culmination of secular beliefs have the "logical high ground" to push their dogma on society in our schools?

You really and truly do not understand the basic science you are trying to discuss.

There are MOUNTAINS AND MOUNTAINS of evidence and research into this matter. What is your basic understanding of it? A few hot debating points you got from church?

But no, you just write it off as dogma, because you clearly know more than the vast majority of world scientists. Do you know how ridiculous this sounds? To imply some kind of dogmatic, universal conspiracy to push an agenda? I hate to tell you, but nearly all scientists agenda is the search for truth throught the rigorous study and examination of the evidence we have available.

Can you name and describe any major scientific book you've read and actually understand?

Those of you who are secularist and evolutionist who think you have some strong scientific undergirding will be surprised to find you do not. You merely have a belief that someone in someplace the truth lies and you can trust it though you have never seen it yourself. This is your belief system. This is a religion.

You really are clueless, aren't you? Before I got my MBA, which was before I got my Psych degree, I wanted to go into astrophysics. I decided this was not a good path for me, but you are absolutely ignorant as to the amount of scientific study I have been exposed to. You have no idea what I have learned through observation, or have learned from scientists who do the work.

I mentioned the mountains of field specific evidence for current scientific positions. How much have you read? How indepth has your study been? Why don't you admit now that you're making sweeping statements that are simply your opinion? Otherwise, bring up any aspect of science you have studied and have a meaningful discussion in scientific terms. The scientists here will know if you're lying or not, so be careful.

You can chant that a belief in what we have solid, repeatable, and confirmed evidence for is religion all you want. It doesn't make it true. It just makes you look foolish.

The opposite of Atheism is Theism (look at the greek). They are references to belief systems or religions. Not all religions are theistic. Some have blind faiths in UFOs, some have blind faith that the physical realm can cause itself to exist. Blind religion is blind religion. There is no amount of makeup that make that ugly girl look pretty. Lipstick on a pig is still a pig.

I do not have blind faith. I have a well educated opinion.

Now, do you want to drop the whole superiority thing and actually discuss science, or what?

 

[Par]

You want an example of one? Here is one I attended personally:
Dr Duane Gish (creationist) debating Dr Richard Shanks (biology professor at ETSU).

Secularism is a belief that can also be described as physcialism. In other words it rejects super natural (or meta physical) and believes that things can define themselves within by themselves. Worldly. The physical realm created the physical realm. Or as the "noted" scientist Dr Steven Hawking so "eloquently" said "The existence of matter is the result of a random fluctuation of 'nothingness'". For this he is lauded. First there was nothing. Then this thing that did not exist managed to "fluctuate". I am pretty sure that there is no aspect of science that allows the introduction of nothingness into an equation and then postulate that nothing takes actions in a spontaneous manner.

This is the culmination of secular beliefs have the "logical high ground" to push their dogma on society in our schools?

Those of you who are secularist and evolutionist who think you have some strong scientific undergirding will be surprised to find you do not. You merely have a belief that someone in someplace the truth lies and you can trust it though you have never seen it yourself. This is your belief system. This is a religion.

You were asked for an example of a scientist in a debate claiming that evolution “just happens.” You then provide an example of a creationist’s take on Steven Hawkin’s supposed claims about the nature of matter.