Should sanctuary cities be tolerated?

[Donal]

Please don't post to such racist bull ◊◊◊◊.

You are echoing Replacement Theory talking points

 

[Hercules56]

You are echoing Replacement Theory talking points

Nonsense. I have not posted anything that relates it any way to that racist idea.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You are echoing Replacement Theory talking points

It's a dog whistle, so it's fine....

 

[Hercules56]

Wow, I guess you guys are against all the Democrats who have worked on compromise bills over the years to deal with illegal immigration, by strengthening the border, hiring more border patrol, kicking out all aliens that have a criminal history, but working with illegals who have been here for a long time to get them legal status.

You guys seem to believe its "open borders or fascism".

How sad.

 

[thaiboxerken]

And you are for mass deportation of all people of color.

 

[sackett]

In an advanced nation, especially one commamding superabundant wealth, a school district or county that needed money to school its children and staff its clinics would be able to apply for a grant from the central government -- and it would be awarded by a competent agency set up to do exactly that. You know, something like a (I'm searching for terminology) Department of Education.

Call me a radical, I don't care!

 

[Hercules56]

And you are for mass deportation of all people of color.

That is a lie.

Please stop lying about my comments.

I have never said such a thing nor would I ever.

 

[Mojo]

Who mentioned the Nazis? Nobody.

What was all that stuff about "national suicide" about then?

 

[Mojo]

Nonsense. I have not posted anything that relates it any way to that racist idea.

See the previous post.

 

[Mojo]

Anecdotally, I gather that the construction trades are one of the few places where a convicted felon can reasonably expect to get hired on.

Also POTUS.

 

[Hercules56]

What was all that stuff about "national suicide" about then?

I think its national suicide to just let in everyone who wants to come here.

Will place a terrible burden upon all of our social services and resources.

We don't have the jobs or the housing or the schools or the social services to deal with the situation where everyone who wants to be here can come here.

That's why most countries do not allow such a thing but for some reason you guys think America should be special.

 

[Mojo]

15 Immigration Myths De-Bunked.

MYTH #4: “Immigrants increase the budget deficit and government debt.”

FACT: Immigrants in the United States have about a net zero effect on government budgets — they pay about as much in taxes as they consume in benefits.

Perhaps Donnie could put a tariff on them.

 

[Donal]

Wow, I guess you guys are against all the Democrats who have worked on compromise bills over the years to deal with illegal immigration, by strengthening the border, hiring more border patrol, kicking out all aliens that have a criminal history, but working with illegals who have been here for a long time to get them legal status.

You guys seem to believe its "open borders or fascism".

How sad.

Or it's a very nuanced and multifaceted issue that requires far more discussion than "kick them out and if a few American citizens get deported, so what". Also, illegal immigration is not a problem with the border. It's a problem with our foreign policy and how we do business. We have spent 250 years ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ around in Latin America. And now that some of them come here to get a piece of the prosperity we enjoy at their expense, you call it an "invasion".

 

[Mojo]

I think its national suicide to just let in everyone who wants to come here.

Will place a terrible burden upon all of our social services and resources.

We don't have the jobs or the housing or the schools or the social services to deal with the situation where everyone who wants to be here can come here.

And we know from the evidence presented in this thread that you are wrong.

It's astounding that you manage to be consistently wrong in ways that conform precisely to the narrative that Trump has been feeding you, while somehow opposing everything he stands for.

 

[acbytesla]

Wow, I guess you guys are against all the Democrats who have worked on compromise bills over the years to deal with illegal immigration, by strengthening the border, hiring more border patrol, kicking out all aliens that have a criminal history, but working with illegals who have been here for a long time to get them legal status.

You guys seem to believe its "open borders or fascism".

How sad.

Why do you keep strawmanning everyone? There have been countless bills over the last 5 decades to address to address immigration. This is undeniable. Hell, even George W.Bush, former Texas Governor provided a very comprehensive bill on immigration. A good bill at that. But it wasn't Democrats that tanked it.

There is no interest in the Republican party and the Trump administration to solve problems. What Trump is doing doesn't solve any immigration problems. He is only driving it underground. I find it's interesting that Trump is receiving such backlash from Red State farmers that are taking a major beating that Trump has ordered an end to farm raids and instead is now going after big cities. Always warring against the Democrats.

 

[Donal]

The section of the Wiki article quoted.

That's why he needed to use Wikipedia and not a primary source. Also, it doesn't break down if the problems in the states and towns are because of immigrants overwhelming the social services, or if said services were insufficient to begin with.

 

[Donal]

I think its national suicide to just let in everyone who wants to come here.

we don't

Will place a terrible burden upon all of our social services and resources.

It doesn't

We don't have the jobs or the housing or the schools or the social services to deal with the situation where everyone who wants to be here can come here.

We do

That's why most countries do not allow such a thing but for some reason you guys think America should be special.

Ya, it's almost like some of us think America is...Exceptional

 

[Hercules56]

Or it's a very nuanced and multifaceted issue that requires far more discussion than "kick them out and if a few American citizens get deported, so what". Also, illegal immigration is not a problem with the border. It's a problem with our foreign policy and how we do business. We have spent 250 years ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ around in Latin America. And now that some of them come here to get a piece of the prosperity we enjoy at their expense, you call it an "invasion".

I never called it an "invasion".

 

[Hercules56]

we don't

It doesn't

We do

Ya, it's almost like some of us think America is...Exceptional

Whatever. You're just telling yourself make believe fantasies to justify your political agenda.

 

[TomB]

They indeed cost more than they give.

Economic impact of illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"State and local governments incur costs for providing services to unauthorized immigrants and have limited options for avoiding or minimizing those costs";
"The amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions";
"The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants"; and
"Federal aid programs offer resources to state and local governments that provide services to unauthorized immigrants, but those funds do not fully cover the costs incurred by those governments."

Did you read the whole article or just the section on budgetary impact?

From the same wikipedia article you quoted:

Aviva Chomsky, a professor at Salem State College, states that "Early studies in California and in the Southwest and in the Southeast...have come to the same conclusions.
Immigrants, legal and illegal, are more likely to pay taxes than they are to use public services. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities.
Households headed by illegal immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econo...immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_note-16"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span></a>

National Public Radio (NPR) wrote in 2006: "Supporters of a crackdown argue that the U.S. economy would benefit if illegal immigrants were to leave, because U.S. employers would be forced to raise wages to attract American workers. Critics of this approach say the loss of illegal immigrants would stall the U.S. economy, saying illegal workers do many jobs few native-born Americans will do."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econo...to_the_United_States#cite_note-NPR_Q&amp;A-17"><span>[</span>17<span>]</span></a>

Professor of Law Francine Lipman writes that
the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the U.S. economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econo...immigration_to_the_United_States#cite_note-18"><span>[</span>18<span>]</span></a> Lipman asserts that
"illegal immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."

The question of whether illegal aliens contribute more or less in taxes than they consume in services is not cut and dry. I think it's a bit of a complicated thing to measure well.

But regardless....
If the illegal aliens disappeared tomorrow, the jobs they fill would still be needed. I think I saw somewhere that they represent around 5% of the work force. We would still need those workers. (No, I don't think those jobs would be snatched up by U.S. Citizens.)

Imagine that those jobs were filled with legal immigrants here as guest workers. would that significantly affect the math?
Do you think significantly more would be collected in taxes?
How would that affect the cost of services?

To me, the problem is not that we have too many immigrant workers, but rather that those workers are here illegally. Their status also makes them vulnerable to criminals and abuse.

Which brings me back to "sanctuary cities."
First, they really aren't sanctuary cities. They don't "protect" illegal immigrants from deportation. they just don't participate in that process for reasons that are largely intended to keep everyone safe.

• They want immigrants to feel safe talking to the police to report a crime, whether they are the victim or a witness. It's to break the "I didn't see nothing." response.
• A corollary of that is that they want these witnesses (or victims) to be able to appear in court without fear of consequences. Again, this helps us get criminals off the street.
• They want everyone to be able to visit a doctor without fear.
• Or call an ambulance.
• Or the fire department.

From what I've seen, they will assist with criminal apprehensions. They won't stop ICE from apprehending or deporting anyone, but in the case of New York, at least, in the name of assisting the judicial system and law enforcement, they want a few places to be (mostly) open. And they want a firewall between local law enforcement and immigration actions.

Is it possible some "sanctuary city" laws go too far? Absolutely. But I also think that state and local government has legitimate discretion over the scope of their law enforcement's duties.