Should sanctuary cities be tolerated?

ponderingturtle said:
Like when we sent the jews back to Hitler, they were trying to come here illegally and so we did the right thing and sent them right to the gas chambers. The last voyage of the St Louis really should be taught as the shining symbol of American values it was.
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Pathetic strawman. And dishonest, as very few if any illegal migrants in the USA are fleeing genocide.

Call me shocked.
 
Hercules56 said:
Yes, they were. Guess history aint your strong point.
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Well genocide by deportation, but of course letting them in is fueling the genocide in that case.

Hercules56 said:
Meanwhile you JUST said in 1939 we sent the Jews to the gas chambers.
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They got there eventually.(well or maybe not, about half of the roughly 500 passengers who were not taken in by Britain got killed in the holocaust, but they were in France and the low countries so their deaths are more likely starvation and overwork than gas chambers which were more eastern so yes it was slightly hyperbolic to say gas chambers)
 
Hercules56 said:
Not true, they are a burden upon the financial resources of states and local authorities.
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The evidence of their net contribution was detailed upthread.

Yes, they are a burden in that they consume state and local services but their contributions more than offset the costs of those services.
 
bruto said:
You have made that position plain. But holding that position is dehumanization, no matter how righteous it is. For, as thaiboxerkitten notes above, your "all" includes a non-trivial number of people who were legally within the system, whose status has been retroactively changed to "illegal," and once again, no matter how good you think that action is, and no matter how small you conceive that minority to be, it exists, and counting those people as simple numbers in the "all illegal immigrants should be excluded" group is dehumanization, pure and simple.

You can counter as usual with opinions on how the system ought to work, and how it ought to be reformed, but what is happening now is happening now. The system we have now is the system with which we all must reckon. And whether you think it unworthy of consideration, or permissible collateral damage, actual people are being actually abused by the system right now. People who thought they were operating correctly within the system are faced right now with deportation, which is irreversible and permanent.

With regard to the links above, you say they do not have valid visas, but the second link is exactly about the revocation of student visas which certainly were valid at some time. You're skirting pretty close here to the case of the official asking for papers, tearing them up, and saying "you have no papers!" And before we have to go round and round on this, revoking a visa is NOT THE SAME as saying a person is an illegal immigrant. Even if the revocation is reasonable and valid, and the expulsion justified, the person whose visa is revoked entered the US legally. Conviction of a crime that carries with it the penalty of expulsion is not retroactive.

You know, one of those other constitutional principles we once thought meant something, has to do with ex post facto laws. Now of course we can quibble about just where those lines are drawn, but retroactively declaring legal status illegal is pretty damned shabby no matter if it makes it through the literalist filter.
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i also think it’s a little silly to hinge their worth to society on their legal status under an administration who has repeatedly and illicitly not respected their legal status or the law itself
 
Hercules56 said:
Yes, we are better off without illegal immigrants. Its not rocket science.
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It's not. I agree. But I don't know how you can know that. I would argue that when produce is double/triple what it previously was because illegal immigrants are no longer harvesting those crops, maybe we are not better off.
Hercules56 said:
One reason being they contribute to our overall crime numbers.
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By that rational, we would better off if we killed off half of America's population. Is that next?
 
Hercules56 said:
So what. The answer to someone being here illegally, is to remove them.

Its common sense.
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common sense - "I have no idea why I support this, but I won't back down"

Also, a big part of the problem with the Trump administration's actions, and how we have historically handled deportations is WE DON'T PROPERLY CONFIRM THE STATUS OF PEOPLE WE DEPORT!

also, you don't have to ship them off right away. You can see why they are here "illegally". What have they done since getting here.
 
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