Should prostitution be legal?

[SimonD]

Everyone needs to talk a deep breath.

Does anyone know a prostitute that would be willing to tells what they think of the industry? Then we won't have everyone assuming that everyone else is wrong. Perhaps someone could pay for an hour of their time

Would anyone be brave* enough to say they have visited a prostitute and what they got from the experience?

(*Not calling anyone out. I know how public this place is)

 

[Lonewulf]

Everyone needs to talk a deep breath.

Why? I'm perfectly calm, really. I just disagree with Dann's presumptions.

I'm also not sure why sex, in itself, is inherently bad, even in the case of prostitution. It seems okay for women to go into porn, to be strippers, and to expose herself to slavering men; but as soon as they get into the touchy touchy, we should abolish it. I'm not sure entirely why.

 

[dann]

I think your implication is clear: That prostitution is "bad" because it's a source STDs. Unless you want to claim otherwise, it is usually a tendency for people to demand that "bad" things be forbidden by the government.

You make a lot of very wrong assumptions! I made it very clear why prostitution is "bad" in this post:

Should prostitution be legal?

(Use the red arrow to go to the post.)

Why is that any of your, or the government's, business?

So it's come to this now! I didn't make it the government's business! The rest of you guys seem to be the ones who are interested in the question of how the goverment should regulate prostitution.

Who are you to define what is "good" or "bad" for the rest of us?

Who are you to define what should be legal and what shouldn't for the rest of us? (That is always a very stupid question!)

I understood you, loud and clear.

So far you don't seem to understand anything.

 

[dann]

I'm also not sure why sex, in itself, is inherently bad, even in the case of prostitution. It seems okay for women to go into porn, to be strippers, and to expose herself to slavering men; but as soon as they get into the touchy touchy, we should abolish it. I'm not sure entirely why.

This strawman is all you have to add?

 

[Lonewulf]

This strawman is all you have to add?

Man, dann, you're getting boring.

Go back a page, you missed a post.

 

[SimonD]

Why? I'm perfectly calm, really. I just disagree with Dann's presumptions.

I'm also not sure why sex, in itself, is inherently bad, even in the case of prostitution. It seems okay for women to go into porn, to be strippers, and to expose herself to slavering men; but as soon as they get into the touchy touchy, we should abolish it. I'm not sure entirely why.

I just thought it may be intresting to read a post from someone who knew what they were talking about (sorry - no offense intended to anyone).

Otherwise we are just guessing as to whether prostitutes enjoy what they do, or if it is because of drug addition, or poverty, et al.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yes, she is consenting based on the economic necessities that force her to make a choice between bad alternatives.

We all have to make choices because of economic necessities. Do you work? Do you get paid? Do you like every aspect of your job?

Again, why is sex a "bad alternative?" Who are you to make this moral decision for the rest of us?

No, and nobody is: If she is in it for the pleasure, I'm sure that she is welcome in the local swingers club or singles bar.

You fail to grasp the concept of entrepreneurship. (I'm not surprised given that you quote Marx in your sig.) Most entrepreneurs are people who are doing what they enjoy, only for payment. Why "give" something away when you can sell it?

No, in particular not according to your definition of consensual"

Well, what definition are we working from?

Some have more of a choice than others. The crack whore with withdrawal symptoms doesn't have a lot.

No. She still has a choice. (Provided we really have "free will" to begin with. But that's another thread.) Despite what the ONDCP and a Partnership for A Freedom Free... I mean, Drug Free... America may have told us, drugs don't make us do "bad things" or otherwise control our minds.

No, it wouldn't. It would just eliminate a couple of the side effects. And it doesn't mean that will only 'bang people they like'.

What are these "side effects" you speak of?

What if they didn't?

What is your point?

I notice that it has now come down to the subtle distinction between bad options and not "entirely bad" jobs.

Again, who are you determine what job is "bad," "not entirely bad," or otherwise? People make their own decisions about what goods and services they provide or purchase, and as long as they do not directly harm the life, liberty (you are yet to show me how prostitution deprives anyone of liberty, you can claim that any job constitutes "wage slavery"), or property of another, then it should be fine.

3) a) Where did I claim that "all prostitutes" take drugs?

Nowhere, but you did claim that "crack whores" have no control of themselves and drug use is cited by busybodies as a reason to keep it illegal.

b) So if you legalise drugs, the problem is solved?

What is the problem?

 

[dann]

So she can go and screw anyone she wants, but as soon as she makes money off of it, it's wrong?

Yes, it's wrong to have to sell sex in order to make a living.

If she goes to swinger bars, she might be exposed to drugs. One of your problems with prostitutes was drugs.

No, you guys argued that legalized prostitution with good, clean brothels and responsible employers would eliminate the drug problem for prostitutes.

If she goes to swinger bars, she might get an STD.

Yes, that is a risk that screwing around entails, be it for money or pleasure.

You stated that as a reason to be against prostitution.

No, I didn't!

I don't get why you're being inconsistent here.

Probably because I'm very consistent. The only inconsistencies are the ones that your strawmen invent.

As soon as money exchanges hands, it magically changes?

Nothing changes, magically or otherwise. The prostitute is consenting based on the economic necessities that force her to make a choice between bad alternatives. The swinger probably isn't.
You want to present the prostitute as a women who enjoys to have sex - the money is then simply a kind of bonus adding a little spice to the whole thing. This is also the reason why you seem to be unable to understand that the wish to put a stop to prostitution is not the same thing as thinking that "sex, in itself, is inherently bad". On the contrary, actually!
People who are able to read wouldn't have this problem!

But I think that I should probably leave you guys to design the best approach to creating the ideal brothel, free of SDTs and drugs and full of (even more imaginary) women who live up to your immature fantasies of prostitution.

 

[SimonD]

We all have to make choices because of economic necessities. Do you work? Do you get paid? Do you like every aspect of your job?

Again, who are you determine what job is "bad," "not entirely bad," or otherwise? People make their own decisions about what goods and services they provide or purchase, and as long as they do not directly harm the life, liberty (you are yet to show me how prostitution deprives anyone of liberty, you can claim that any job constitutes "wage slavery"), or property of another, then it should be fine.

If I could get $300 an hour to get laid, I'd do it in a flash. That would have to be the best job in the world. No?

 

[dann]

You fail to grasp the concept of entrepreneurship. (I'm not surprised given that you quote Marx in your sig.) Most entrepreneurs are people who are doing what they enjoy, only for payment. Why "give" something away when you can sell it?

Prostitutes are entrepreneurs, selling their commodity to the highest bidder and enjoying it.
Dream on ...

 

[Lonewulf]

Yes, it's wrong to have to sell sex in order to make a living.

Uhhhh...

Ookay. If you say so, bub.

No, I didn't!

Okay, fine, I'm supposedly setting up "strawmen", even though you've continually brought up STDs and ugly businessmen yourself. Fine, I'll avoid them, then.

Okay, so STDs aren't the reason to be against prostitution, drugs alone aren't the reason, and if the sex is consentual, even if money is exchanged, it's fine...

...

I think you're going to have to start inventing reasons to be against it now.

The prostitute is consenting based on the economic necessities that force her to make a choice between bad alternatives. The swinger probably isn't.

And your assumption is that the alternatives really are that bad.

There is a market for sex. Some men are willing to pay higher for sex. Some women are willing to sell that sex to make cash more quickly, than they could make over a longer period of time. That's making a quick buck, not "being forced into your situation".

I still don't get the big issue here.

 

[Alt+F4]

Legalized prostitution has been Australia for about 20 years, right? How is that social experiment going? Has there been a reduction in street prostitution and sex trafficking? Are prostitutes safer, healthier and wealthier then they were before the legalization?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Who are you to define what should be legal and what shouldn't for the rest of us? (That is always a very stupid question!)

As long as I have a vote, I have EVERY right to define, through my franchise, what should be legal for the rest of you. Just as you have the right to do the same to me.

However, since freedom and democracy ARE NOT the same thing, it doesn't ever need to come to that.

In a free society, you have the liberty to do, or not to do, in accordance to your own moral code: If you do not like same-sex marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex. If you don't like handguns, then don't own one. If you think abortion is immoral, don't have one. If you do not entirely approve of the government or socio-economic system you're living under, the border is that way. If you don't like marijuana or cocaine, don't use them.

In a free society, if you do not approve of prostitution, you are free not to partake of their services.

(This is not to say that there are no limits. Murder, rape, theft, fraud, and coercion, etc SHOULD still be punishable. But in deciding the criteria of what should and what shouldn't be legal, we should alwayr err on the side of freedom.)

Yet, it is the arrogance of people who think they know what is best for the rest of us, to bring down the hammer and sic the men with badges and guns upon those who they disapprove of, even when no one was really being harmed at all.


Why does it ever have be this way?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Prostitutes are entrepreneurs, selling their commodity to the highest bidder and enjoying it.
Dream on ...

And you know this how?

 

[SimonD]

Legalized prostitution has been Australia for about 20 years, right? How is that social experiment going? Has there been a reduction in street prostitution and sex trafficking? Are prostitutes safer, healthier and wealthier then they were before the legalization?

This has already been answered - go back to page 1

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yes, it's wrong to have to sell sex in order to make a living.

That's your opinion.

 

[billydkid]

That's your opinion.

Dann is right, it is wrong to have to sell sex for a living. But is it wrong to sell sex for a living? I suspect that is what Dann really believes.

 

[skeptifem]

Otherwise we are just guessing as to whether prostitutes enjoy what they do, or if it is because of drug addition, or poverty, et al.

i consider stripping and porn to be prostitution, despite the smaller amount of potential damage done to the woman its essentially selling your body in a sexual manner for money. I dont think most women want to be doing those things, but there are some that do, and the choice should be open to people who want to do it. Some women love anonomous sex all the time, some dont. There should be help for women who feel stuck in prostitution and dont want to do it anymore, help that is available for those who want it.

There are plenty of prostitutes that simply sell themselves in a more socially acceptable way, to rich men. We have all seen this, like anna nicole smith was with her 90 year old husband. She kept herself looking good and had sex with him and she in turn enjoyed his money, both of them knew what they were getting into(well not the endless court cases but you know what i mean) and so I dont really care if thats how they want to live thier lives. Maybe they were in love (I doubt it) but there are plenty of women like her that were basically whores for one john instead of many, who did the exact same thing for money. Prostitution is always going to be around, no matter what you do.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Dann is right, it is wrong to have to sell sex for a living. But is it wrong to sell sex for a living?

Is it wrong for me to have to telemarket for a living? Is it wrong for me to have to work at a gas station, or a fast food restaurant, or a reporter?

I have to do all of these things if I wanted to pay my bills. What's "wrong" about that? Why should sex work be any different?

Everyone--trash collectors, doctors, laywers, police officers, astronauts, prostitutes--has to do something for a living; or does food, clothing, shelter come raining from the sky?

 

[skeptifem]

I never said 'all' prostitutes were drug addicts run by gangs.

But that IS the lifestyle that goes with it here in North America. Don't believe me?

Come to any major city in the US and I'll show you.

THATS BECAUSE ITS ILLEGAL. I dont think anyone wants to deal with gangs or pimps if they dont have to. If we had legal brothels girls would have a legal way to do business and wouldnt have to go to an illegal source for protection.