Should Peter Sutcliffe be released?

[richardm]

we are talking a graduating score of 'evil' with execution reserved for the very worst.

I'm sure the family of Jill Dando will be delighted to learn that her murder "wasn't all that bad really".

 

[Rolfe]

[Indeed, Soapy. I was manfully forbearing to mention the repeated, blatant misuse of "criteria" as a singular noun, because I didn't want to be petty. Hung and hanged are both acceptable perfect-tense forms of "to hang", certainly here, and I'm not modifying my language to Aussie just to please Aussie posters. Criteria is still plural, even in Oz.]

At the risk of getting banished to the CT section, I still wonder about the theory that Dando was offed by a Serbian agent in relation to the work she'd done for a charity helping Kosovan refugees. It was the perfect crime, really. The murderer apparently had no connection to the victim, left no evidence at all, and was in and out before you could say "bang you're dead". If that's what it was, it's probably no surprise they never found a lead.

The other popular theory was an execution by a criminal she'd been involved in catching through her work on Crimewatch. I'd have thought that would have been easier to get a handle on though, and also it would be a little strange to focus entirely on Dando while ignoring Nick Ross, and all the police and detectives involved in the case.

It really is the most curious affair.

Rolfe.

 

[Moss]

In the UK in the 20th century (until abolition in 1965); between 3 and
8 weeks from passing of sentence to execution. One appeal only was
permitted. The execution method used in 20th century Britain was
measured hanging (also sometimes known as long drop hanging). A
properly carried out measured hanging caused unconsciousness after
a half to three-quarters of a second, and brain death after about 6
minutes.

That was rather fast in contrast to what I know of the American system.
I don't think the Pierrepoint family flubbed any hanging, but hanging can go wrong in a number of ways, from decapitating the hanged to choking instead of breaking the neck.
And that also reminds me of whose name I couldn't remember the whole time: Timothy Evans^WP. His case and his probably wrongful conviction seems to have turned public opinion against capital punishment in the UK.

I am also not sure about the connection between capital and corporal punishment. I can see an argument made that capital punishment is the last and ultimate measure of corporal punishment which has largely vanished from Western justice for reasons of cruelty.

I have been thinking a lot about this topic in the last few days. For me it comes back to giving even violent criminals a chance to mend their ways and learn something from the punishment. I admit that is an idealistic point of view and a lot of people are not able to become better persons. But giving up on people also seems wrong to me.

 

[richardm]

I don't think the Pierrepoint family flubbed any hanging, but hanging can go wrong in a number of ways, from decapitating the hanged to choking instead of breaking the neck.

I think the Pierrepoints erred on the side of caution when it came to hanging, so the drop was always on the generous side rather than risking a choking; mostly they did worry about decapitating them. Apparently Ruth Ellis came quite close to this because Albert was particularly keen to ensure an instant death.

Albert Pierrepoint is on the record criticising the American lethal injection system, not because the drugs weren't effective but because he considered the business of tying the victim down and probing around for a vein to take far too much time and to be a cruel process.

He's also on the record - as is the Victorian hangman James Berry who refined the long drop - as saying that none of the executions he carried out achieved anything. Both of them turned against capital punishment in the end; an interesting view from men who hanged over 800 people between them.

 

[commandlinegamer]

Albert Pierrepoint is on the record criticising the American lethal injection system, not because the drugs weren't effective but because he considered the business of tying the victim down and probing around for a vein to take far too much time and to be a cruel process.

IIRC, 7 seconds was his record for hanging a condemned.

 

[Soapy Sam]

[Indeed, Soapy. I was manfully forbearing to mention the repeated, blatant misuse of "criteria" as a singular noun, because I didn't want to be petty. Hung and hanged are both acceptable perfect-tense forms of "to hang", certainly here, and I'm not modifying my language to Aussie just to please Aussie posters. Criteria is still plural, even in Oz.]

Well, I'd agree with Alfie's usage re "hanged", though I'm not sure why the past tense differs for people. The "criteria" thing grates though.

At the risk of getting banished to the CT section, I still wonder about the theory that Dando was offed by a Serbian agent in relation to the work she'd done for a charity helping Kosovan refugees. It was the perfect crime, really. The murderer apparently had no connection to the victim, left no evidence at all, and was in and out before you could say "bang you're dead". If that's what it was, it's probably no surprise they never found a lead.

The other popular theory was an execution by a criminal she'd been involved in catching through her work on Crimewatch. I'd have thought that would have been easier to get a handle on though, and also it would be a little strange to focus entirely on Dando while ignoring Nick Ross, and all the police and detectives involved in the case.

It really is the most curious affair.

Rolfe.

I didn't know she presented "Crimewatch" . I only ever saw her on the holiday programme. I thought her an extremely attractive woman. I therefore find a "stalker" type explanation credible, especially as she was (I understood) planning a well publicised marriage which might upset some nutter. I'd think real criminals would avoid like the plague any attack on a popular woman, as it could be expected to arouse public resentment that might get someone shopped.

The Serb business may not be so improbable- but assassins usually put the word out after the event to make their point.

 

[Rolfe]

Except - there wasn't a stalker. Or not one who was ever identified. George hadn't been stalking her. I don't know how easy it is to stalk someone or have that degree of obsession with them, and not give yourself away at all. Of course she was deliberately trying to look like Diana Spencer (except she was significantly better-looking), which could have had all sorts of weird consequences.

I don't want to turn this into a JonBenet Ramsey/Skeptic Ginger argument, but the modus operandi in the Dando murder seems unlikely for a stalker attack. To walk calmly up to someone on her own doorstep in broad daylight in a public street with a gun in your pocket, grab her in a half-nelson with one hand and shoot her point-blank in the head with the other - it says professional assassin to me. Who knows why word wasn't put out - remember Shergar?

Oops, we've gone quite a way off topic here! [Rolfe rapidly redefines this as thread drift....]

Rolfe.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I'm sure the family of Jill Dando will be delighted to learn that her murder "wasn't all that bad really".

Clearly that is not what I am trying to say and you know it.

[Indeed, Soapy. I was manfully forbearing to mention the repeated, blatant misuse of "criteria" as a singular noun, because I didn't want to be petty. Hung and hanged are both acceptable perfect-tense forms of "to hang", certainly here, and I'm not modifying my language to Aussie just to please Aussie posters. Criteria is still plural, even in Oz.]

The proper, traditional past tense and past participle form of the verb "hang", in this sense, is (to be) "hanged" and not "hung".

Unless you are an American who love to bastardise the English language.

Criteria - plural
Criterion - singular
very good.

I assume your (not petty) dig was for me, but I would be surprised if I got them mixed up. Unlike some who would go about 'hanging' people as curtains.

 

[Rolfe]

Glass houses, stones, and all that. Don't gripe about someone else's (perfectly correct) usage if you don't want your own mistakes highlighted. Bloody colonials.

Your suggestion for re-introducing the death penalty to Britain receives no support. Particularly as we'd have to leave the EU, which I don't believe would suit our economy at the present time.

Australia isn't in the EU. Why aren't you starting a thread about the death penalty in Australia to make your point?

Rolfe.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Ooh, haud oan a minute, hen!
We get the rope back AND quit the EU?
A Win- win situation. Where do I sign?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

As I say, I would be surprised if I have used the word criteria incorrectly.

I would happily see the majority of these killers rot in gaol (or jail if you prefer the seppopotanian spelling).
This thread is actually about releasing Sutcliffe, no? Not about CP in the UK or anywhere else, but it has moved there naturally.
Now given that much of our "colonial" law is derived from the Westminster system we are in fact allied along those lines in more ways than you perhaps imagine. Although I do take your point about the EU and the 'difficulties' that might lie therein.

CP is an issue in most western countries and as you point out has support from the larger population in the UK in many ways. This is the same in many of the backward countries in the lower hemisphere too. Frankly, I hardly see how my undeducated, grammatically poor opinion does not reflect the thoughts of many others in the UK and elsewhere.

So, I will continue to submit my thoughts on an international forum. I will however apologise now for correcting your misuse of the Queens English and refrain from doing so in the future.

 

[Skeptic]

Albert Pierrepoint is on the record criticising the American lethal injection system, not because the drugs weren't effective but because he considered the business of tying the victim down and probing around for a vein to take far too much time and to be a cruel process.

Was there lethal injection during his time?

My favorite last words are that of one of those he hanged: "Ah, Pierrepoint, I've always wanted to meet you -- although, of course, not under these circumstances".

 

[zooterkin]

As I say, I would be surprised if I have used the word criteria incorrectly.

Well, it's not hard to check.

And as I have explained to you, there is more than one criteria that needs to be met.

I guess you should be surprised.

Not to mention:

Unless you are an American who love to bastardise the English language.

I do agree with you on using 'hanged' rather than 'hung', thought I've never researched the origins of the distinction. It's often instructive to do so; you may find that, for example, some 'Americanisms' are actually perfectly valid, but archaic, usages that have died out in the UK and other places but persisted in the USA. (Which is not to say that new usages are not valid.)

So, I will continue to submit my thoughts on an international forum. I will however apologise now for correcting your misuse of the Queens English and refrain from doing so in the future.

(Did you mean "Queen's English"?) As I said before, no-one is stopping you from contributing, but this is not a general, unbounded discussion of capital punishment, but one about a specific prisoner and the issues arising from that (one of which is whether capital punishment might have been more appropriate in his case), but in the context of what is legal in the UK (England, specifically).

 

[richardm]

Was there lethal injection during his time?.

No, he just had a premonition

He died in 1992.

 

[H3LL]

Time is short ... skimmed to the end.

It this has been mentioned before, apologies.

I understand that Sutcliffe is in Broadmoor, high-security psychiatric hospital at Crowthorne.

If it is thought he is "well" enough to be considered for release, why is he still in Broadmoor?

Surely he should be transferred to a normal high-security prison with immediate effect.


.

 

[Rolfe]

Good point. Someone mentioned it, and someone else replied that his life expectancy in a regular jail could be measured in days rather than weeks.

Which is a damning indictment of the prison management, but that doesn't make it less true, if it is true.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Ooh, haud oan a minute, hen!
We get the rope back AND quit the EU?
A Win- win situation. Where do I sign?

http://www.ukip.org/

Actually, though, I couldn't find any reference to re-introduction of the death penalty in their criminal justice policy, so maybe not.

You could try here

http://bnp.org.uk/

Though I couldn't find anything coherent, about anything, in that one.

Rolfe.

 

[Garrette]

Except - there wasn't a stalker. Or not one who was ever identified. George hadn't been stalking her. I don't know how easy it is to stalk someone or have that degree of obsession with them, and not give yourself away at all. Of course she was deliberately trying to look like Diana Spencer (except she was significantly better-looking), which could have had all sorts of weird consequences.

I don't want to turn this into a JonBenet Ramsey/Skeptic Ginger argument, but the modus operandi in the Dando murder seems unlikely for a stalker attack. To walk calmly up to someone on her own doorstep in broad daylight in a public street with a gun in your pocket, grab her in a half-nelson with one hand and shoot her point-blank in the head with the other - it says professional assassin to me. Who knows why word wasn't put out - remember Shergar?

Oops, we've gone quite a way off topic here! [Rolfe rapidly redefines this as thread drift....]

Rolfe.

Compare to the stalker murder of Rebecca Shaeffer in the US.

 

[Rolfe]

That's a horrible story. I hadn't heard about it before.

It's not that similar though. The stalker had contacted Rebecca on numerous occasions, writing letters to her and covering his own room with photographs of her and eventually tracking her down in quite a public way. He communicated his obsession to others, who were obviously aware he was a bit unbalanced on the subject. Even when he shot her, he seems to have tried to interact with her first, and it was her rejection of his contact that sparked the shooting. I don't see any indication that the authorities had the slightest difficulty finding that guy, or indeed, finding out that she had a stalker.

With Jill Dando, the killer seems simply to have pounced and shot, with no preamble, right on the street. He didn't even ring a bell to get her to the door - he just struck as she was entering her own front garden gate (I think). And in all the investigations, no trace of a stalker was found. No letters, nothing Dando ever said to anyone about a stalker, nothing like that. Nobody came forward to say that they knew of someone with an unhealthy interest in Dando.

There's one other case this reminds me of. Maybe someone will remember the name. It was in Scotland. The assassin came to the door of the victim's house, asked for him, and when he confirmed his identity, he was shot dead. Case never solved. No motive uncovered. No suspect apprehended. Police reduced to searching for other people of the same name in case it was mistaken identity. Nothing.

I don't suppose we'll ever find out.

Rolfe.

 

[Garrette]

Hmmm. I think you're right. In comparing to the Shaeffer murder I was thinking only of the attack itself. It isn't identical in that there was attempted interaction, but he came with weapons prepared for the murder so I was counting that as something of a quibble; we only know there was interaction because he said so after being caught.

But as you indicate, when the build-up of earlier communication attempts is factored in, the comparison falls completely apart.