Should Meth/crack be legalized?

I wonder what would happen if the government provide crack, coke, pot, heroine etc. free to anyone who wanted it for two years. Ridiculously extreme - but what do you think would happend to drug cartels and the drug related violence? The cost of law enforcement? the state of society?

Give it for free? What are ya, some kind of commie? ;)

But seriously, giving it for free seems a bit too much for me. I'm all for letting people have whatever vices they wish, but I'd rather they paid themselves for it. I'll gladly pay my share for other people's medical care, education, unemployment benefits and stuff like that, but not for their pot. I mean, there's a bit of a difference between someone dying because of not having money for cancer surgery, and someone not affording an extra line of cocaine.

But I don't think we even need to go that far. Even just removing the ridiculous ban should drop the price to the point where it really isn't worth a mobster's time.

I mean, for example hemp can grow almost literally everywhere. As in, seriously, from Alaska to the southern tip of Argentina. About 80% or so of the world's landmass is suitable for growing hemp. It's also some of the world's fastest growing biomass.

You probably don't want it pollinated if you cultivate it for drugs, but basically a few metal bars and glass sheets make a perfectly good greenhouse that keeps outside pollen out.

What I'm getting at is that if you just let supply and demand take care of it, you could easily have FAR more supply than demand. Expect the price to drop to somewhere around the price of alfalfa biomass, the instant you allow everyone to just grow and sell it.

Do you really think one actually needs to go the extra mile and subsidize the price down to zero?
 
<snip>

What I'm getting at is that if you just let supply and demand take care of it, you could easily have FAR more supply than demand. Expect the price to drop to somewhere around the price of alfalfa biomass, the instant you allow everyone to just grow and sell it.

<snip>

:confused:

In a free market how is supply going to significantly exceed demand in the long run?
 
I said you could have more supply than demand. I didn't say you necessarily will. It's really just a comment about the upper ranges of the two.
 
we used to do that in the UK with heroin. The explosion in use, addition and socially damaging effects occurred sometime after we stopped.

I suppose that answers the question! I just threw the question out there, though my main catalyst was wondering about the effect on street violence and trying to think of a way to neuter the drug cartels. Seems hopless sometimes, but I would agree that at least pot should be decriminalized, if not made outright legal.
 
I suppose that answers the question! I just threw the question out there, though my main catalyst was wondering about the effect on street violence and trying to think of a way to neuter the drug cartels. Seems hopless sometimes, but I would agree that at least pot should be decriminalized, if not made outright legal.

it doesn't fully answer the question, as
1) it was a very different time and culture and
2) drug based criminal gangs hadn't really got going at that point.
 
I grew up in black neighborhoods in the early 90s when crack nearly tore our communities apart. I'm all for the legalization of drugs like marijuana which have little medical side effects or long term damaging effects, but crack and Meth are simply too destructive and I've seen the destructive potential of each. Meth in particular has more of an effect as a suburban drug, and it's nicknamed "the mom drug" because so many stay at home moms take the drug and invariably rip apart their entire families.

As I've said before, I support the integration of light drugs (marijuana, alcohol, some synthetic drugs (buzz without the negative effects)), hardcore destructive drugs however, I generally would like to keep those illegal. I think it
 
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Meth is not only damaging to the user, but the toxic byproduct to manufacture the Meth is dangerous as well.

My opinion has always been to make the "naturally" occurring drugs legal (ie: weed) and keep the chemically manufactured drugs illegal (ie: anything that creates a toxic byproduct to manufacture).

It would be a trial run of sorts. Although it could go either way, legalizing weed might drive the demand of heroin and coke down. It has the potential of eradicating the need for other "high end" drugs. Of course...that's just me being an optimist.
 
Who's on the what now??

You need someone to be the bogeyman in any campaign. With cocaine it was the "cocaine crazed negro". Police demanded more powerful guns as the guns they had were not effective.

Of course it was introduced in the us as an at work pick me up for black dock workers. And at the time blacks were not allowed to drink alcohol.

But any drug banned before WWII had a racial component to it.
 
As many of you may know I favour legalization of drugs.

As a general line, I've long thought that all drugs should be legalized.

However, I watched Meth in Montana on Youtube yesterday.
It seems that Meth is actually as bad as the government has always claimed drugs are.
Meth is thankfully rare in Europe, so I didn't know much about it.

It doesn't seem to destroy just a small percentage of users that cannot handle it, but rather all users.
Addiction comes fast, even after the first time.
The substance causes great physical deterioration, though this might be the result of impurities as the ingredients are isolated from battery acid and Drano.
Meth is a vicious drug, definitely one of the worst ones out there.

So what I'm pondering is this:
Should we ever stop the war on drugs, should we legalize all drugs or keep the worst of them illegal?
Would there still be a market for them? Would a person who could buy legal cocaine still buy illegal meth?
Would keeping some substances illegal still provide a significant marketplace for criminals? Or would the availabilities of legal, superior substances kill that market (almost) entirely?
There are two workable approaches:

1) Safe injecting rooms provide a safe space for injecting heroin and other drugs. People are provided with clean needles, and supervised by a professional staff, they can respond almost instantaneously to overdose. In Sidney, Australia, a supervised injecting room has been in operation for 9 years, with 3400 potential overdoses, and not one death.

The wiki article above suggests that these rooms neither increase nor decrease drug use. However, they have a visible effect on public safety and crime reduction: safe injecting rooms reduce needle sharing, prevent used needles from being disposed in parks or lakes, prevents addicts from overdosing in an alley or behind a school, reduces drug-related loitering.

Vancouver's safe injecting room reduced transmission of HIV and Hep C. Since Canada has public health care, treating these illnesses has a public cost, reducing infections save money on treatment. HIV reduction alone saves around $6M per year.

2) Decriminalize all drugs. Portugal did exactly that and it worked, for the most part. The article cites the Liberatarian think tank Cato Institute for numbers indicating that drug use decreased, I think the numbers are skewed by a political bias.

This article has some detailed findings:
In the Portuguese case, the statistical indicators and key informant interviews that we
have reviewed suggest that since decriminalization in July 2001, the following changes
have occurred:

- small increases in reported illicit drug use amongst adults;
- reduced illicit drug use among problematic drug users and adolescents, at least since 2003;
- reduced burden of drug offenders on the criminal justice system;
- increased uptake of drug treatment;
- reduction in opiate-related deaths and infectious diseases;
- increases in the amounts of drugs seized by the authorities;
- reductions in the retail prices of drugs. [...]

Decriminalization of illicit drug use and possession does not
appear to lead automatically to an increase in drug-related harms. Nor does it eliminate all drug-related problems. But it may offer a model for other nations that wish to provide less punitive, more integrated and effective responses to drug use.


I think everyone agrees prohibition doesn't work, the aim should be harm reduction. With regard to meth use, I think safe injecting rooms promote that end more effectively decriminalization.

Incidentally, I think legalizing some drugs for sale, particularly cannabis, reduces demand for meth and crack. Its not drugs, but drug dealers, which are a gateway to harmful substances. If you get your cannabis from a dealer, you're more likely to be offered mdma, crank, heroin, or meth than you'd be getting your cannabis from the mom and pop store by the Starbucks.
 
...It would be a trial run of sorts. Although it could go either way, legalizing weed might drive the demand of heroin and coke down. It has the potential of eradicating the need for other "high end" drugs. Of course...that's just me being an optimist.

That makes no sense. The effects of cocaine are absolutely nothing like the effects of pot. That is like saying the availability of Benadryl reduces the demand for Pepto Bismol.
 
So who's willing to sell crack to a group of 16/18/21 year olds who have never used the drug before? Will the state be providing them with tuition in freebasing?
 
There might be a substantial number of people whose lives would be ruined if recreational drugs became more easily available.
The experience with mephedrone et al while they were still legal doesn't really support that idea. Kids in particular were more open because it was legal, but all the evidence points to them using it instead of something illegal that theyu could have obtained, anyway. It's certainly known that many people were not actually obtaining it legally and directly by themselves, but rather through street dealers who have previously supplied illegal drugs. All evidence points to displacement of trade from the illegal to the legal, rather than an increase in consumption overall.

Where lives are "ruined" as you so emotively put it, it is more down to the consequences of drugs being illegal and/or expensive, rather than any damage the drugs in their purest form may cause to the user.
 
I think so.



So long as criminals can offer a cheaper or novel fix and make a profit they will be in the recreational drugs business.

I'm with Vetinari:
Lord Vetinari said:
I have no particular objection to people taking substances that make them feel better or more contented, or, for that matter, see little dancing purple fairies – or even their god if it comes to that. It’s their brain, after all, and society can have no claim on it, providing they’re not operating heavy machinery at the time.
 
it doesn't fully answer the question, as
1) it was a very different time and culture and
2) drug based criminal gangs hadn't really got going at that point.

"Drug based criminal gangs hand't really got going" for the simple reason that there was no money in drugs, at least not in heroin and cocaine. You can't make a "profit" selling ridiculously cut heroin and cocaine to an addict, if they can go to their GP and get pharmaceutically pure diacetylmorphine and benzoylmethylecgonine prescribed for free.

On the other hand, at the same time the the illicit trade in amphetamines was massive, with theft from pharmacies and warehouse being rife. Conversely, that did mean that most of the product on the streets and in the dance halls was pharmaceutically pure. Properly manufactured pills were available on a scale that meant that illcit production and cutting was pointless.
 
"Drug based criminal gangs hand't really got going" for the simple reason that there was no money in drugs, at least not in heroin and cocaine. You can't make a "profit" selling ridiculously cut heroin and cocaine to an addict, if they can go to their GP and get pharmaceutically pure diacetylmorphine and benzoylmethylecgonine prescribed for free.

On the other hand, at the same time the the illicit trade in amphetamines was massive, with theft from pharmacies and warehouse being rife. Conversely, that did mean that most of the product on the streets and in the dance halls was pharmaceutically pure. Properly manufactured pills were available on a scale that meant that illcit production and cutting was pointless.

my point was that we currently have drug based criminal gangs, and whilst legalization will remove a major source of funding from them, it wont necessarily make them disappear.
 
So who's willing to sell crack to a group of 16/18/21 year olds who have never used the drug before? Will the state be providing them with tuition in freebasing?
You would have to present evidence that those "16/18/21 year olds" wouldn't have taken the illegal drug, if offered to them anyway. Tens of thousands are using crack anyway, but they're outnumbered by cocaine users by 7 to 1. If cocaine powder was legally available, who'd want crack?
 
Meth is a vicious drug, definitely one of the worst ones out there.


There are two workable approaches:

1) Safe injecting rooms provide a safe space for injecting heroin and other drugs.
(Snipped)

As someone who lived, worked & owned property within the 'catchment area' of Vancouver's 'InSite' safe injection site, I'll just say that there are definitely two schools of thought about its efficacy and the role it plays in making drug abuse more palatable in the urban environment.

For my own observation, on the one hand while I noticed less evidence of drug use walking the streets of the Downtown Eastside (used rigs and other detritus being fairly common down there) there was a huge uptick in petty crime in the area. Between 2003-2005 we experienced 13 vehicle break-ins and 2 house break-ins, while resident/owners in a neighborhood within walking distance of the injection site. Sure, I have little evidence that it was drug addicts doing the thieving (although on three of the 15 breakins, they used the vehicle/apartment to shoot up and left evidence behind) but I'm pretty sure that in the overall petty theft economy, drugs were a motivating factor somewhere along the line between thieves, fencers etc...

All I'm saying - I would definitely look at the Vancouver InSite (ongoing) experiment through non-rose tinted glasses.

On the OP - I really don't have an issue with drug use/drug users. I have an issue with them spreading disease & engaging in crimes to support their habits. IF projects like InSite do a better job of reducing disease (appears so) and IF legalization removes the ecomonic issues that drive drug addicts into petty crime (not entirely so convinced) then, smoke 'em if you got 'em / smack yourself with heroin or what have you.

As for comments that it is drug dealers who are to blame for being 'introduced' to more 'hard' drugs - I have no evidence to support or deny this. Logically, I have tried to wrap my head around this argument and don't get it. I have perhaps, purchased herbal substances at times past in my life. I cannot think of any point in time where I was offered say, heroin, in lieu of my requested substance as something worth trying. Nor did the individual I was procuring from even strike me as the kind of person who would have access to anything but a little stinky catnip. I'm reasonably confident that people are 'introduced' to heroin/meth/coke either by being around people who are themselves indulging and elect to partake, or decide it is something they wish to try out and go forth to find it.

I can see switching brands of beer by getting a suggestion from the guy behind the counter. I can't see trying meth because someone tells me it would be fun.
 
I grew up in black neighborhoods in the early 90s when crack nearly tore our communities apart. I'm all for the legalization of drugs like marijuana which have little medical side effects or long term damaging effects, but crack and Meth are simply too destructive and I've seen the destructive potential of each. Meth in particular has more of an effect as a suburban drug, and it's nicknamed "the mom drug" because so many stay at home moms take the drug and invariably rip apart their entire families.

As I've said before, I support the integration of light drugs (marijuana, alcohol, some synthetic drugs (buzz without the negative effects)), hardcore destructive drugs however, I generally would like to keep those illegal. I think it

My view has always been " How easy is it to die from the drug in one sitting." Think of the following as a scale...

Sit down with a carton of smokes, puff away untill you puke, your not going to die.

Sit down with an ounce, heck a pound of dope, puff it up, your not going to die.

Get a few bottles of Johnny Walker, chug 'em down. You could die, chances are your going to be too sick to keep drinking though. But it is still a possibility.

Right about here in the scale i think it is appropriate to stop. People are known for doing what they do to excess. When this is likely non lethal, or permanently damaging in one sitting, sure, keep it legal. But introducing substances that can easily kill when overused in a single sitting, just seems to be inviting death. I mean there are people who kill themselves by drinking alcohol , and that is a pretty mean feat, letting these kinds of folks have access to things like meth, or cocaine, just seems like giving a 4 year old a shotgun.

Sure it might seem awesome to think that we would be stickin it to all those evil folks out there. But that is one of the things keeping these drugs at their current levels of use, and keeping the prices inflated so people have a harder time accessing them. And still people go through this trouble , do too much and die. To think that if it was available at the beer store, people would suddenly be more responsible, not less, is just wishful thinking.

The dealers provide a service. They make getting the drugs unappealing to most "regular" folk, and they keep the prices high, which further limits the amount even their customers can purchase at a time. They may not be doing these things for altruistic reasons, but the effect is that the drug is limited to certain segments of the population who do not mind dealing with a sketchy individual, possibly getting arrested , and paying out the ***.
 
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