Should Illegal Immigrants get Welfare

[thaiboxerken]

But because the US offers easily accessible welfare benefits, many people do just that.

Undocumented immigrants have easily accessible welfare benefits?

 

[Joecool]

Undocumented immigrants have easily accessible welfare benefits?

Sorry, I have no link but I know they can qualify for medical and a friend of mine who is a welfare worker said they approve SNAP (food stamps) for these folks as well. I'm not sure about general assistance cash welfare though.

 

[Tony Stark]

Sorry, I have no link but I know they can qualify for medical and a friend of mine who is a welfare worker said they approve SNAP (food stamps) for these folks as well. I'm not sure about general assistance cash welfare though.

I think it depends on the state.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Sorry, I have no link but I know they can qualify for medical and a friend of mine who is a welfare worker said they approve SNAP (food stamps) for these folks as well. I'm not sure about general assistance cash welfare though.

So you have no evidence. Nice.

Also, immigrants get free medical in Canada. Does Canada have a huge illegal immigration problem?

 

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by Joecool
How many of us would go to some foreign country with our family and have no means to support yourself and may or may not speak the language?

Why do you think my grandparents (all 4 of them, separately) did it before there were government welfare benefits? I kind of think it was very brave of them, especially since they couldn't speak the language, started families once they got here, had relatively low level skills and no job offer in advance. They explained to me that there were no opportunities in the "old countries" and that they wanted better chances for their own children.

You're right about that but times are different. The US was founded by people moving to a new country ad not necessarily knowing what t expect. Maybe people are still doing this for the same reasons. I don't really know.

In my state (Hawaii), we don't have an influx of undocumented immigrants. We do have a bunch of legal immigrants who show up to collect welfare however.

 

[Giordano]

Sorry, I have no link but I know they can qualify for medical and a friend of mine who is a welfare worker said they approve SNAP (food stamps) for these folks as well. I'm not sure about general assistance cash welfare though.

Usually no. They approve food stamps for children of illegals who are born here, and thus are themselves American citizens. Same for "welfare-" American citizen children only qualify as far as I know. Yes, the checks and food stamps are typically given to their parents to supervise, but I can't see how you could give them directly to the kids.

As to medical: undocumented aliens can be treated at ERs for "medical emergencies" but cannot typically get regular benefits. You can look through the rest of this thread if you want more details.

 

[Giordano]

You're right about that but times are different. The US was founded by people moving to a new country ad not necessarily knowing what t expect. Maybe people are still doing this for the same reasons. I don't really know.

In my state (Hawaii), we don't have an influx of undocumented immigrants. We do have a bunch of legal immigrants who show up to collect welfare however.

I see it as involving a lot of issues. I am the product of immigrants (as are most of us) so the concept that people come to the USA for economic or political opportunity doesn't seem wrong to me at all. So the question is "how many immigrants can we sustain." It is a hard question to answer.

There has always been resistance to new people coming in from the people already here. Some objections I think are legitimate. But once you meet the immigrants in person, many of them are wonderful, hard working people with a willingness to abandon the old and try the new that I respect tremendously. As I indicated, I would gladly trade many of the immigrants who I have met one-to-one with many of the American citizens I have met. So I don't really know what the best solution is, but I am happy to hear various practical solutions so as to try to devise one.

 

[Joecool]

Usually no. They approve food stamps for children of illegals who are born here, and thus are themselves American citizens. Same for "welfare-" American citizen children only qualify as far as I know. Yes, the checks and food stamps are typically given to their parents to supervise, but I can't see how you could give them directly to the kids.

As to medical: undocumented aliens can be treated at ERs for "medical emergencies" but cannot typically get regular benefits. You can look through the rest of this thread if you want more details.

Yes, I believe you are right. Not the immigrant themselves but the kids. I stand corrected.

And yes, medical would be more for emergency type cases.

 

[marplots]

Medical treatment is a good choke point. For any medical procedure, take a wee bit of blood for DNA testing. Use custom GWAS (Genome-wide association study^WP) to determine heritage and citizenship. Immediately deport anyone who doesn't pass.

They had the right idea in Gattaca.

 

[logger]

If criminal penalties are high enough, very few restaurants and home owners will hire them. Farmers would be a tougher sell, but penalties based on the number of illegal workers would help with that.

Yes, totally agree, if we had a new revamped system, farmers could apply for the extra help they need.

 

[logger]

Agreed. If having illegal immigrants not hired is your goal, then having high criminal penalties to restaurants and home owners violating the law will help a lot. But, as I see it, one must also have the ability to detect these offenses very high for them to have an effect, so there has to be an effective way (raids, relying on customers and neighbors reporting suspicions, etc.) that the "bad" employers run a high risk of getting caught (the higher legal penalty is unlikely to have much of an effect if you can't catch me doing it).

what about this, give me 10% of the fine for turning them in. I'm sick of companies who hire these people and I know who they are.

Also, as the new program starts, all the immigrants who are currently working would have to reapply. If they have a fake number or none at all, its a good bet they won't be rehired.

 

[Modified]

At least as far as I can tell in California, there are not a lot of legal immigrants and citizens who would replace the illegals as kitchen staff or migrant workers on farms unless the wages offered by employer were much, much higher than now. Not that I am against increasing farm wages; just noting that a lot of farm produce will cost a lot more if you do this.

Farm labor cost makes up on average about 6% of retail produce prices (based on results of a google search), so the effect on prices should not be that much. I couldn't find out with a quick search, but I would guess that fuel prices make up much more of the cost. Of course some items are more labor intensive than others, and would be effected significantly.

Labor shortages would be a huge problem if you just one day enacted huge penalties, of course. Penalties and enforcement would have to be ramped up gradually.

 

[Giordano]

what about this, give me 10% of the fine for turning them in. I'm sick of companies who hire these people and I know who they are.

Also, as the new program starts, all the immigrants who are currently working would have to reapply. If they have a fake number or none at all, its a good bet they won't be rehired.

Great! Just tell me how you would know an illegal immigrant when you see one. Would you as a private citizen be currently able to demand anyone else's papers? By what legal authority, and if we pass new laws that would let you do this, can I assume you would gladly respond if anyone challenged you? Which papers for that matter! Haven't I asked these questions of you before?

I also assume that you mean that all employees, everyone (not just illegal immigrants- if you knew who they were you wouldn't have to do this at all) would have to reapply for their jobs after the new program was instituted. That might work, although it might make a lot of people angry and represent quite a cost and trouble. But it could work. But again, what kind of proof would people need when reapplying? You realize that it is not usually possible to know that a fake social security number doesn't really below to the employee. If you support a national, rigorous, difficult to forge ID, then just admit it. Or tell me how this plan would solve the current ID problem without such a national card.

 

[Giordano]

Farm labor cost makes up on average about 6% of retail produce prices (based on results of a google search), so the effect on prices should not be that much. I couldn't find out with a quick search, but I would guess that fuel prices make up much more of the cost. Of course some items are more labor intensive than others, and would be effected significantly.

Labor shortages would be a huge problem if you just one day enacted huge penalties, of course. Penalties and enforcement would have to be ramped up gradually.

Yes. Some things like wheat will remain cheap, others things like grapes will go up quite a bit. Okay by me, if you can get the legal employees. And I agree that introducing it gradually is a good idea.

With all this said, I keep thinking of my grandparents, and the newer immigrants who I have met. I would like to have ways of still allowing people to come to the USA, although legally since I do feel we must be able to regulate and keep track of it.

 

[Brian-M]

How many of us would go to some foreign country with our family and have no means to support yourself and may or may not speak the language?

But because the US offers easily accessible welfare benefits, many people do just that. While they might eventually find work, I don't really see the point of the government offering handouts to people who find their way to the US illegally.

I didn't realise that the current policy of US immigrants having to wait five years before being eligible to receive welfare benefits counted as "easily accessible".

But sure, I guess lots of families are queuing up to starve for five years so they can start receiving free benefits.

 

[mgidm86]

Great! Just tell me how you would know an illegal immigrant when you see one. Would you as a private citizen be currently able to demand anyone else's papers? By what legal authority, and if we pass new laws that would let you do this, can I assume you would gladly respond if anyone challenged you? Which papers for that matter! Haven't I asked these questions of you before?

I also assume that you mean that all employees, everyone (not just illegal immigrants- if you knew who they were you wouldn't have to do this at all) would have to reapply for their jobs after the new program was instituted. That might work, although it might make a lot of people angry and represent quite a cost and trouble. But it could work. But again, what kind of proof would people need when reapplying? You realize that it is not usually possible to know that a fake social security number doesn't really below to the employee. If you support a national, rigorous, difficult to forge ID, then just admit it. Or tell me how this plan would solve the current ID problem without such a national card.

I know you asked this of logger, but I would consider a national ID of some kind, though I'd have to give it more thought. Identifying illegals is obviously a difficult part of this whole "plan". That's why in my previous post I said that people would have to be serious enough about this problem to make it work, as in possibly agreeing to jump through more hoops in order to prove ones legality.

And I agree that the penalties for employers would have to be very high - high enough to make it economic suicide to hire illegals. It sounds fine to me. If more people are unwilling to hire illegals, less people will be motivated to come here illegally.

Some items would become more expensive to the consumer, however these prices are artificially low due to the illegal labor. People who argue that this would be a problem (not saying you are) are saying that it is okay to exploit these people, and at the same time take potential jobs away from citizens in order to keep prices low. People will fill those jobs at a fair market price. My first job was washing dishes over a summer for minimum wage.

Whatever we do, we need to be consistent with it. Giving free medical, free schooling, and now tax refunds to illegals is not deterring people from coming here. Living here successfully as an illegal should not be rewarded, whether they pay taxes or not, with a tax refund. As it is now, there is little reason for people not to come here illegally, and without removing a lot of these incentives that will not change.

 

[Giordano]

I know you asked this of logger, but I would consider a national ID of some kind, though I'd have to give it more thought. Identifying illegals is obviously a difficult part of this whole "plan". That's why in my previous post I said that people would have to be serious enough about this problem to make it work, as in possibly agreeing to jump through more hoops in order to prove ones legality.

And I agree that the penalties for employers would have to be very high - high enough to make it economic suicide to hire illegals. It sounds fine to me. If more people are unwilling to hire illegals, less people will be motivated to come here illegally.

Some items would become more expensive to the consumer, however these prices are artificially low due to the illegal labor. People who argue that this would be a problem (not saying you are) are saying that it is okay to exploit these people, and at the same time take potential jobs away from citizens in order to keep prices low. People will fill those jobs at a fair market price. My first job was washing dishes over a summer for minimum wage.

Whatever we do, we need to be consistent with it. Giving free medical, free schooling, and now tax refunds to illegals is not deterring people from coming here. Living here successfully as an illegal should not be rewarded, whether they pay taxes or not, with a tax refund. As it is now, there is little reason for people not to come here illegally, and without removing a lot of these incentives that will not change.

Logical and I agree that you have addressed many of the practical problems. I applaud that. Personally, I still would also like to allow a reasonable number of people to immigrate legally as did my grandparents. I think many of the people who want to come to the USA are exactly the people we want here. I view people wanting to come here as a sign of our success, but recognize that there are limits. I just don't know what ours are.

 

[logger]

Logical and I agree that you have addressed many of the practical problems. I applaud that. Personally, I still would also like to allow a reasonable number of people to immigrate legally as did my grandparents. I think many of the people who want to come to the USA are exactly the people we want here. I view people wanting to come here as a sign of our success, but recognize that there are limits. I just don't know what ours are.

People who come here legally are exactly the ones we want.

 

[Giordano]

People who come here legally are exactly the ones we want.

Glad you agree! Now, how do we do it? My grandparents were unskilled and couldn't come here now legally. What way do you believe that we should arrange the equivalent for people now in foreign countries?

Can I assume that you agree with mgidm86's specifics as to how to reduce the number of illegal's already here? Some of it requires actions, such as national ID cards and higher prices on some items, that are fairly onerous on probably all of us who are here legally. Are there any of "his" specifics that you disagree with?

 

[mgidm86]

Glad you agree! Now, how do we do it? My grandparents were unskilled and couldn't come here now legally. What way do you believe that we should arrange the equivalent for people now in foreign countries?

Can I assume that you agree with mgidm86's specifics as to how to reduce the number of illegal's already here? Some of it requires actions, such as national ID cards and higher prices on some items, that are fairly onerous on probably all of us who are here legally. Are there any of "his" specifics that you disagree with?

Yes, I am a "his"

For your first paragraph, all of this depends on what we as a nation want for the future of immigration. What I mean is do we want a yearly limit on the number of people, do we want to let in more educated people than not, etc. Do we want to pick and choose who comes or just let anyone in, first come first served? I think a nation has the right to set limits if they choose to. I'm not familiar with the constitutionality of any of this really, I'm just thinking out loud.

Long ago we accepted pretty much anyone who could get here (maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration?), but is that what we want now?

It is nice that we have been a haven for refugees and those seeking a better life, but we don't owe that to anybody. Perhaps the amount of these types of people we allow in should be proportionate to how well our economy is doing and how many people we can afford to help out. That would be a practical approach. Maybe everything I'm saying is already in the books and just not being enforced properly, I really don't know. It doesn't matter for this discussion I suppose.

People that are educated or have desired skills won't be such a burden on society. Then again, if we have a lot of qualified citizens out of work, we might not want too many of these people here either. That would indeed be a burden. Why do companies want to bring in skilled foreign labor? To save money, or to receive tax benefits? Surely most jobs, perhaps not all, could be filled by somebody already here. Perhaps that is something that needs to be thrown into the equation. I'm sure it already is, but we're just talking here.

In short, we should do what is best for our country, while also keeping in mind that people who are poor and unskilled can also benefit us down the road, and that we have always been a place people can come to try and make a better life for themselves.

From a purely skeptical position, one question I have is why should/do we care about refugees and poor people who want to come here? I mean we could simply say that if someone doesn't have something we want or need that we won't let them in. I am not saying that we should have that attitude - we never have, I'm just asking why. Understanding this would help determine how we set our rules for the future.

Politics and greed seem to get in the way of just about every aspect of our nation. Without the ability to stop that it is difficult to enforce anything consistently.

Just keeping the conversation rolling, I'm no expert.