Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[richardm]

The orginal drop is strong and probably to strong for the body(aresnic, bryonia, lachesis, belladonna) spring to mind unless diluted will kill.

I s'pose it depends on how big your drop is, really. Did you know that some Victorian gentlemen used to take arsenic as a recreational drug? They reckoned that it increased their virility. They used to munch charcoal to fend off some of the symptoms, and had little silver spoons to dose themselves with.

Mind you, they're all dead now.

Come to think of it, I went through a phase of collecting Victorian bottles, and had a selection of "tonics". One of these had the remnents of the contents still in it, complete with what looked very much like arsenic crystals in the bottle. "Drink up now!"

 

[Dorman]

As for Hahnemann he just followed on from what the sanskrit and chinese had already documented.

I am wondering -- is there any reference for this ? Did Hahnemann say this, or did he claim to have found something original ?

 

[Flatworm]

I said pervuvian bark produces like for like,which quinine is extracted from.

Have it your way. Can you provide any support for your claim that pervuvian bark produces symptoms similar enough to malaria so as to link the two to the exclusion of all other diseases and possible substances?

Can the principles of homeopathy explain why, if the entire bark is required to produce similar symptoms, only the quinine is required to effectively treat malaria?

 

[Flatworm]

Why do I believe simple science does not explain everything and science is still in its infant stage, subject to change(when allowed and not covered up) I know people it has helped I have read its why and where fores,

The only problem is that when the experiment is carefully designed to avoid cheating and self-delusion, the effect disappears- every time.

Now as the feel good factor cant be scientifically proven, and it plays a part in homeopathy I believe for same it does work despite claims that there is nothing in it.

The 'feel good factor' has been shown to a strong degree of certainty to be the placebo effect.

The idea of Homeopathy is feasible,

No, it is not, and if you actually understood the numbers like you claim to, you would realize this.

Herbalism more so,

Herbalism is just pharmacology, stripped of quality control and scientific rigor. It works sometimes and to varying degrees, with little information provided to patients as to actual efficacy and side effects.

theory of mine probably ludricous.... bodies chemicals, energy sound etc, are fragile, anything that changes its normality the body attacks, adding more chemicals etc that are foreign to the body create more probs.

This has been repeatedly shown to not be the case.

Homeopathy attacks the chemical etc that is foreign and so aids the body recovery by making it null by treating itself with itself and removing it from the body.

Under rigorously controlled conditions, it can be and has been shown that homeopathy does precisely d*ck.

Mainstream science knows quite a bit about chemicals and exactly what it would take to 'attack' and neutralize them. Homeopathy doesn't fit the bill.

 

[Flatworm]

did horizon use water not alcohol, allthe remedies ihave seen are all alcohol dilution, and that in itself is stronger than water to hold the orignal ingrediants in or world the the effect of.

Just thought water is containmenated but alcohol is pure isnt it?

I don't see why the alcohol should be any more pure than the water.

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter if you dilute it in water, alcohol, or guacamole. At dilution levels like 30C, what you have is water, alcohol, or guacamole- as pure as your original source. There is not a molecule of the active ingredient remaining.

 

[Ipecac]

didnt say I didnt understand I said I dont do numbers or maths, I hate it.

I dont make the medicine up, so the numbers mean diddly squat to me. In other words I am not interested in number just the what it does or doesnt do.

If you do understand, then the numbers were helpful. If you want to discuss this issue, numbers are important. Trying to make people explain it without numbers because you "don't do numbers" is not useful.

 

[RichardR]

On lost bit now I get you its abut as clear as mud with me but I get you. Right then some sideffects yes are beter than the illness (cancer) but not the rest, how is valliums side effect better than the depression get my drift?
Still stand by half of all illnesses are casued by the side effects of modern medicines. Think that was where my links came into play..then again maybe not.

Since most people suffer no (or virtually no) side effects from most drugs, I suggest you are overreaching here in a big way. For your claim to stand you will have to provide a reference to a study that backs it up.

As for Hahnemann he just followed on from what the sanskrit and chinese had already documented. Homeopathy was sold in by the swiss in 1774.
To get an accurate similar aid, youhave to have a full "personailty" diagnosis on that you then get the similar remedy.

That’s the first I’ve heard of homeopathy being based on any ancient texts. What reason do you have to believe in this?

Anyway, this is the argument from the ancients fallacy – because it is old it must be true. But it is a fallacy. The ancient Chinese had their myths just as they did in Europe. And they were still just myths. You still have offered no reason to believe that like cures like. Without any evidence, can’t you at least consider that it might not be true?

 

[Guest]

Well, Horizon used water, and that was consistent both with the tests performed by Jacques Benveniste and with many homeopathic remedies. Some remedies are dissolved in alcohol, but by no means all. Funnily enough, alcohol has significantly different properties to water, so any suggestion that the "memory effect" of water is the answer to the problems with homeopathy would be rather damaged if alcohol was the main constituent.

Freshly distilled water is as pure as freshly distilled alcohol, but they inevitably don't stay pure for long, since both absorb bits and pieces of other substances from the air, and indeed, if I recall correctly, from the glassware they're contained in. It may be possible under extremely expensive conditions to restrict this, but I'm (almost!) certain that you cannot eliminate it.

Have another look at Xouper's calculations above - especially the one where he describes a 12C solution as being 1 molecule of active "stuff" per ounce of water.

Then think about all the other bits that are going to be present in that water. How is the water going to know which is the "drug" molecule that needs to be remembered, and which are the "junk" molecules that need to be forgotten?

water remembers ?????????????? where did that come from?

all the remedies i know of all contain alcohol not water.
for example( I know the deadlier ones but this is fairly ok, done it myself, does soothe wounds suspect iodine substitue)( Warning Dont try this unless you know what your doing )

50g/2oz of fresh maigold flowers(calendula officinalis or you can uses hypericum perfoliatum(st Johns wort)
or 25g.1oz dried
100ml/3floz alcohol(brandy or vodka)
1~measure out the ingredients wash the flowers then pulverize them by chopping finely and grinding in a pestle n mortar. add flower to the bowl and mix throughly with alcohol. Or put flowers and alcohol into food processor and whizz for 1-2 mins.
2~ pour mixture into large airtight container such as a large glass jar, fill it completely so all air is excluded and store in cool dark place until the liquid turns dark brown. If the jar is clear take extra care to ensure that no light gets to the mixture.
3~agiate the container regularly everyday for 1 week, the liqiud at the base of the jar will darken- this the ticture.
4~after a week strain through a fine sieve, strain a second time through muslin. Fill small glass bottle to the top to exclude air. Label and date. store in cool dark places(not refigerator).

What the x is in that no clue or what is left but that is a typical homepathic remedy.

Can use this too bathe cuts or mouthwash, soothe burnt tongue only after proper medical consultation first.

me and known homeopathic remedy surce leaflet given by GP.

 

[Guest]

Since most people suffer no (or virtually no) side effects from most drugs, I suggest you are overreaching here in a big way. For your claim to stand you will have to provide a reference to a study that backs it up.

That’s the first I’ve heard of homeopathy being based on any ancient texts. What reason do you have to believe in this?

Anyway, this is the argument from the ancients fallacy – because it is old it must be true. But it is a fallacy. The ancient Chinese had their myths just as they did in Europe. And they were still just myths. You still have offered no reason to believe that like cures like. Without any evidence, can’t you at least consider that it might not be true?

No ,i am not go look back at the links I put up. that explains look at people who have had the side effects the webs full of their stories how ruine health and the courts too from being sueing. Not wrong on this. Study why a study with court cases in the news etc that is enough to back that up surely?
I read that he did.

no



Sympthtyum Botanical name is dervied from greek and means to unite. This cause bone to grow and so promtoes the fs healing of fractures. Use fo hard body parts(bone I mean) cant be used if a pin is insitu.

arnica aka fallkraut(fall herb) used in brusing

baptisia sympton drowsy almost drunken dusky red complexion. sypmtons resemble typhoid fever.

me and plant, research material via unknown source harvested from and memory of such things.

 

[Guest]

If you do understand, then the numbers were helpful. If you want to discuss this issue, numbers are important. Trying to make people explain it without numbers because you "don't do numbers" is not useful.

HUH?

why are numbers important? there numbers just the strength, and if your making it with water thens its useless.

Depending on the strength of the remedy then the x is stronger. 200x for arnica is the strongest i have come across so that is potent is it not?

going doo lally me

 

[Guest]

The test was done to see whether a homeopathic remedy could affect the behaviour of a bunch of cells. It used the same methods to make the solutions as a homeopathist would use, so if there was something in there that would invalidate the tests, then that would make the homeopathic remedies equally invalid.



My tongue was in my cheek

You again people will talk

glad your tongue was would look funny in your pocket

didnt see it so cant comment on something I didnt watch.

me wondering wether to jump richardsm bones(joking)

 

[Guest]

I don't see why the alcohol should be any more pure than the water.

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter if you dilute it in water, alcohol, or guacamole. At dilution levels like 30C, what you have is water, alcohol, or guacamole- as pure as your original source. There is not a molecule of the active ingredient remaining.

Alchol is pure thats why. Water contains minerals and other things. Sterile I think is better than pure.

@ that dont be silly

me wondering wether to blow you up

 

[Ipecac]

water remembers ?????????????? where did that come from?

all the remedies i know of all contain alcohol not water.
for example( I know the deadlier ones but this is fairly ok, done it myself, does soothe wounds suspect iodine substitue)( Warning Dont try this unless you know what your doing )

50g/2oz of fresh maigold flowers(calendula officinalis or you can uses hypericum perfoliatum(st Johns wort)
or 25g.1oz dried
100ml/3floz alcohol(brandy or vodka)
1~measure out the ingredients wash the flowers then pulverize them by chopping finely and grinding in a pestle n mortar. add flower to the bowl and mix throughly with alcohol. Or put flowers and alcohol into food processor and whizz for 1-2 mins.
2~ pour mixture into large airtight container such as a large glass jar, fill it completely so all air is excluded and store in cool dark place until the liquid turns dark brown. If the jar is clear take extra care to ensure that no light gets to the mixture.
3~agiate the container regularly everyday for 1 week, the liqiud at the base of the jar will darken- this the ticture.
4~after a week strain through a fine sieve, strain a second time through muslin. Fill small glass bottle to the top to exclude air. Label and date. store in cool dark places(not refigerator).

What the x is in that no clue or what is left but that is a typical homepathic remedy.

Can use this too bathe cuts or mouthwash, soothe burnt tongue only after proper medical consultation first.

Even assuming this worked, why would you want to go to all this trouble when you can buy dozens of topical antibiotics or antispetics that would do the same or better job?

 

[RichardR]

No ,i am not go look back at the links I put up. that explains look at people who have had the side effects the webs full of their stories how ruine health and the courts too from being sueing. Not wrong on this. Study why a study with court cases in the news etc that is enough to back that up surely?
I read that he did.

Nowhere have you backed up your claim that ”Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines”. If you had any basis for this claim you would have posted it by now. But you haven’t. It’s an empty claim. And wrong.

Sympthtyum Botanical name is dervied from greek and means to unite. This cause bone to grow and so promtoes the fs healing of fractures. Use fo hard body parts(bone I mean) cant be used if a pin is insitu.

arnica aka fallkraut(fall herb) used in brusing

baptisia sympton drowsy almost drunken dusky red complexion. sypmtons resemble typhoid fever.

I have no idea what this is about. But again you have not backed up your claim that ”you treat same with same that cures the whole“. Hardly surprising. No one has ever been able to show any reason to believe this.

Your claims are empty. There is no reason to believe in any of the claims of homeopathy.

 

[Ipecac]

Alchol is pure thats why. Water contains minerals and other things. Sterile I think is better than pure.

@ that dont be silly

The purity is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if you dilute something as much as homeopaths do, there is an insignificant chance that there is a SINGLE molecule left of whatever it is that's supposed to have medicinal value.

 

[Foodbunny]

Searched the web for homeopathy water. Results 1 - 10 of about 90,100.

Searched the web for homeopathy alcohol. Results 1 - 10 of about 31,100.

While it does appear that some people are using alcohol instead of water, water is way ahead of them. Considering the level of dilution being used there's no reason that alcohol would work better than water unless you think alcohol has a memory and water doesn't. There still wouldn't be even a single molecule of the original substance in either one.

 

[Guest]

The only problem is that when the experiment is carefully designed to avoid cheating and self-delusion, the effect disappears- every time.



The 'feel good factor' has been shown to a strong degree of certainty to be the placebo effect.



No, it is not, and if you actually understood the numbers like you claim to, you would realize this.



Herbalism is just pharmacology, stripped of quality control and scientific rigor. It works sometimes and to varying degrees, with little information provided to patients as to actual efficacy and side effects.



This has been repeatedly shown to not be the case.



Under rigorously controlled conditions, it can be and has been shown that homeopathy does precisely d*ck.

Mainstream science knows quite a bit about chemicals and exactly what it would take to 'attack' and neutralize them. Homeopathy doesn't fit the bill.

1 why does it. that can be said for many things in science too.
2 and so?
3 said it before depends on strength of orignal remedy. 3 x of lachesis is far beeter than getting that neat thats for sure.
4 I know that gee thats hey pharmacies are going into the great unknown armed with yes herbalistic records. Theres validity for you. Every one knows th side effects fromeating certian plants or not that is documented not only by toxicolgists, but by plants people the world over including the australian army.
5 Not a scientist so how would I know just my musing, wanna see my therory on the beyond the event horizon and beyond even einstein didnt escape my version.
6 dont swear no need for it.
6a, if i put you under riorous testing i suspect you wouldnt qualify for something either. sceince does not explain everything as it improves it can look at past things, DNA for one look how that reopened cases, until science is at the stage where it can answer everything and dismiss or endorse, then what its current stage is minor and i cant accept its word as yet. that s my belief I equally ahve disbelief that make me more sketptical thatn you could ever be. This homeopahy isnt one of them, peole find it helps and I wont knock it for allowing them some people pain free time.
If that makes me a woose glady I accept it I am human and have feelings I'll admit that willingly.

me in full anticipation of shallI disect a worm(joking)

 

[Guest]

Searched the web for homeopathy water. Results 1 - 10 of about 90,100.

Searched the web for homeopathy alcohol. Results 1 - 10 of about 31,100.

While it does appear that some people are using alcohol instead of water, water is way ahead of them. Considering the level of dilution being used there's no reason that alcohol would work better than water unless you think alcohol has a memory and water doesn't. There still wouldn't be even a single molecule of the original substance in either one.

Everything I bet you find has a memory after all most things have some form of energy or living part.


my friends input

 

[Guest]

The purity is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if you dilute something as much as homeopaths do, there is an insignificant chance that there is a SINGLE molecule left of whatever it is that's supposed to have medicinal value.

not in all cases yes i have already said if tha is the case ban that particular healing agent if it doesnt prove to work.

circles again.
me wondering wetehr to talk to the wall or door?

 

[Flatworm]

Alchol is pure thats why. Water contains minerals and other things. Sterile I think is better than pure.

@ that dont be silly

We are quite capable of producing demineralized water, thank you very much. There's no reason to suppose the alcohol is any more pure- how do you suppose the alcohol was made? Generally it's distilled from a water-alcohol mixture produced by fermentation.

However, that's beside the point. It doesn't matter what you mix the "mother tincture" with- after diluting it to the point of one part in 10^23, you'd be lucky to have a single molecule of the active ingredient left. That corresponds to a homeopathic dilution of 23X or just under 12C.

Imagine you have a bottle with a solution containing 10g of pure elemental arsenic. That corresponds to

82,500,000,000,000,000,000,000

molecules of arsenic. Now consider how many jars of the same volume as the original it would take to make a 30C dilution. 30C means that the source bottle is divided up amongst 100 bottles of solvent and shaken, then a single bottle is taken from the 100 and becomes the new source bottle. The process is repeated 29 more times. That means the total number of bottles those 82,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules are divided amongst is 10^60 or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

There just aren't enough molecules to go around, whether you use water, alcohol, Pine Sol, or Mountain Dew as a solvent.