Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[corplinx]

If someone dies from taking homeopathic remedies in lieu of real treatment, I would say natural selection just occured.

 

[RichardR]

Why do I believe simple science does not explain everything and science is still in its infant stage, subject to change(when allowed and not covered up) I know people it has helped I have read its why and where fores, Now as the feel good factor cant be scientifically proven, and it plays a part in homeopathy I believe for same it does work despite claims that there is nothing in it.

Science doesn’t explain everything. (Yet.) But that doesn’t mean that we should make up things and use “science doesn’t explain everything” as the reason to believe in what we just made up. Hahnemann observed something he thought applied to quinine, and then made up the idea that this is universal. Do you have any reason to believe in Hahnemann’s invented explanation?

The idea of Homeopathy is feasible, Herbalism more so,
theory of mine probably ludricous.... bodies chemicals, energy sound etc, are fragile, anything that changes its normality the body attacks, adding more chemicals etc that are foreign to the body create more probs. Homeopathy attacks the chemical etc that is foreign and so aids the body recovery by making it null by treating itself with itself and removing it from the body.
After all we know less about our bodies than many other things.

I ask you to consider that all of that is simply made up.

RR: If by “illnesses”, you are including the known side effects, then you are misrepresenting the facts.
RS: Lost me

Sorry – I didn’t phrase that very well. What I meant was this. You are counting the known side effects of drugs in the total of “all illnesses around”. As these side effects are caused by the drug, you use this to say ”Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines”.

But you are misrepresenting these side effects as illnesses. Most of them are mild compared with the illness the drug cures. Some people don’t get side effects. Some side effects (eg sickness from chemotherapy), are less severe than the symptoms they cure (death). They are not illnesses.

 

[Charlie in Dayton]

Sorry but, it is correct. Do you understand the mathematics behind the labeling "6c" "30c" etc? If not let me quickly explain. 1c = 1 in 100 dilution. 2c = 1 in 10,000, 3c = 1 in 1000000 and so forth.. using 100 as the multiplier. Like I stated at 15c there's not even enough water on Earth to disolve one drop in. The chance of a 30c solution even containing a single molecule of the original solution are astronomical. It has been shown through careful analysis that such solutions do not contain even a single molecule of the original solution.

Do I have this right? The number before the 'c' refers to dilutions as in exponents of 100? 1c = 100 to the 1st power = 100? 3c = 100 cubed? 6c = 100 to the 6th? 15c = 100 to the 15th power?

So if you start with a gallon of the good stuff, 1c=100 gallons, 3c=1 million gallons, 6c=1,000,000,000,000 gallons, etc?

So a 1c dilutes to a strength of .01, 3c dilutes to .000001, 6c is down to .000000000001?

Do I have this right? That makes a drop in a gallon a dilution somewhere around .0000169%, and a drop of THAT in a pure gallon makes...ahh...
.00000000000000685%, or thereabouts. I'm no chemist...where along this route do we start getting down to molecular dilutions and less?

 

[Lothian]

Do I have this right? The number before the 'c' refers to dilutions as in exponents of 100? 1c = 100 to the 1st power = 100? 3c = 100 cubed? 6c = 100 to the 6th? 15c = 100 to the 15th power?

So if you start with a gallon of the good stuff, 1c=100 gallons, 3c=1 million gallons, 6c=1,000,000,000,000 gallons, etc?

So a 1c dilutes to a strength of .01, 3c dilutes to .000001, 6c is down to .000000000001?

Yup.

A molecule may (and that's a big may) be hanging around at 12C.

 

[richardm]

15c 30c what of? Asprin isnt total asprin is it yet that works to some effect doesnt it?

Yes, but it is the amount of dilution that makes homeopathy impossible. I have some paracetemol tablets in my drawer, here. According to the label, they contain 500mg of the active ingredient. The tablets themselves are quite large; I'd guess (I don't have scales accurate enough, so this is a very rough estimate) around the 1g mark, but I'll be generous and say maybe around 2g (that is to say 2000mg). So using that rough guide to weight, 1/4 of that tablet is active ingredient, and the rest is filler.

Compare that to a homeopathic remedy. Even a 1C preparation is 1/100 active ingredient to filler. A 2C preparation would be 1/10000. 3C would be 1/1000000. And so on, until you reach the astronomical dilutions we're worried about. We've been talking about 30C. Do you see how insanely dilute that would be?

 

[Titanpoint]

Off topic but I really like this picture of Randi

 

[richardm]

He looks like he's about to attack

 

[xouper]

Do I have this right? The number before the 'c' refers to dilutions as in exponents of 100?

Yep. You understand correctly. And the number in front of an X stands for exponents of ten. Thus 24X = 12C, which means one molecule of homeopathic agent per fluid ounce of water (approximately).

By comparison, the federal EPA limit for arsenic in drinking water is 10 ppb (parts per billion) which is equivalent to 4C.

According to one source I looked at, Arsenicum Album is their second most popular remedy and can be bought in dilutions of 6X, 12X, 30X, 6C, 12C, 30C, 200C, 1M and 10M (where 1M = 1000C).

That source also has a list of ailments that homeopathic arsenic is supposed to remedy. The people who drink the tap water at Fort Leavenworth are getting a free and steady supply of 6C arsenic. Does this mean they will not get any of the ailments on that list?

 

[Lothian]

The picture is outrageous. James Randi should sue. It has obviously been digitally doctored by the homeopathic community. The way they placed him between a jug of homeopathic hayfever cure on the right and homeopathic arthritis cure on the left make it look as if James endorses these products.

 

[xouper]

A molecule may (and that's a big may) be hanging around at 12C.

When talking about the number of molecules in a homeopathic dilution, it is also necessary to specify the volume of remedy. For example, in a gallon of 12C arsenic, one would expect to have about 128 molecules of arsenic. Compare that with a gallon of tap water from Fort Leavenworth, KS, which typically has 128,000,000,000,000 molecules of arsenic.

 

[Guest]

That picture looks like Uncle Albert out of Only fools and Horses,

observational me

 

[Guest]

Yes, but it is the amount of dilution that makes homeopathy impossible. I have some paracetemol tablets in my drawer, here. According to the label, they contain 500mg of the active ingredient. The tablets themselves are quite large; I'd guess (I don't have scales accurate enough, so this is a very rough estimate) around the 1g mark, but I'll be generous and say maybe around 2g (that is to say 2000mg). So using that rough guide to weight, 1/4 of that tablet is active ingredient, and the rest is filler.

Compare that to a homeopathic remedy. Even a 1C preparation is 1/100 active ingredient to filler. A 2C preparation would be 1/10000. 3C would be 1/1000000. And so on, until you reach the astronomical dilutions we're worried about. We've been talking about 30C. Do you see how insanely dilute that would be?

Isnt homeopathic remedies made up using alcohol?

Are you asking me or telling me richard?

me

 

[richardm]

Isnt homeopathic remedies made up using alochol?

Mmmm, not as far as I know - I believe they're all diluted using distilled water.

Are you asking me or telling me richard?

I'm telling you - are you listening?

 

[richardm]

... Actually, you're quite right, r-s, some homeopathic remedies are dissolved in alcohol. However, it doesn't matter what they're diluted with - it is the degree of dilution that matters.

 

[Guest]

Science doesn’t explain everything. (Yet.) But that doesn’t mean that we should make up things and use “science doesn’t explain everything” as the reason to believe in what we just made up. Hahnemann observed something he thought applied to quinine, and then made up the idea that this is universal. Do you have any reason to believe in Hahnemann’s invented explanation?



I ask you to consider that all of that is simply made up.

Sorry – I didn’t phrase that very well. What I meant was this. You are counting the known side effects of drugs in the total of “all illnesses around”. As these side effects are caused by the drug, you use this to say ”Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines”.

But you are misrepresenting these side effects as illnesses. Most of them are mild compared with the illness the drug cures. Some people don’t get side effects. Some side effects (eg sickness from chemotherapy), are less severe than the symptoms they cure (death). They are not illnesses.

On lost bit now I get you its abut as clear as mud with me but I get you. Right then some sideffects yes are beter than the illness (cancer) but not the rest, how is valliums side effect better than the depression get my drift?
Still stand by half of all illnesses are casued by the side effects of modern medicines. Think that was where my links came into play..then again maybe not.

As for Hahnemann he just followed on from what the sanskrit and chinese had already documented. Homeopathy was sold in by the swiss in 1774.
To get an accurate similar aid, youhave to have a full "personailty" diagnosis on that you then get the similar remedy.

Now according to what I quickly glanced over

->"the remedies are only diluted twice with alcohol 1 drop to 9 of alcohol in 6 testubes(1x=1 tube of)that is 6 x together in on set of 6 test tubes, shaken for the period of time, then 1 drop from this mix is then repeated(2x) then finally poured over the lactose based pills. that makes" <--

Water? I have not seen any mention of water?

me asking and saying not in my research did I see water mentioned, plus

 

[Guest]

... Actually, you're quite right, r-s, some homeopathic remedies are dissolved in alcohol. However, it doesn't matter what they're diluted with - it is the degree of dilution that matters.

The orginal drop is strong and probably to strong for the body(aresnic, bryonia, lachesis, belladonna) spring to mind unless diluted will kill.

me again showing my wonderful love of deadly plants and a snake(lachesis)

 

[Guest]

did horizon use water not alcohol, allthe remedies ihave seen are all alcohol dilution, and that in itself is stronger than water to hold the orignal ingrediants in or world the the effect of.

Just thought water is containmenated but alcohol is pure isnt it?

me

 

[Guest]

Mmmm, not as far as I know - I believe they're all diluted using distilled water.



I'm telling you - are you listening?

distilled water still contains extras, therefore could presume contaiminaton of and make void the test?

Dont tell me teach me. willing here

me

 

[richardm]

did horizon use water not alcohol, allthe remedies ihave seen are all alcohol dilution, and that in itself is stronger than water to hold the orignal ingrediants in or world the the effect of.

Just thought water is containmenated but alcohol is pure isnt it?

Well, Horizon used water, and that was consistent both with the tests performed by Jacques Benveniste and with many homeopathic remedies. Some remedies are dissolved in alcohol, but by no means all. Funnily enough, alcohol has significantly different properties to water, so any suggestion that the "memory effect" of water is the answer to the problems with homeopathy would be rather damaged if alcohol was the main constituent.

Freshly distilled water is as pure as freshly distilled alcohol, but they inevitably don't stay pure for long, since both absorb bits and pieces of other substances from the air, and indeed, if I recall correctly, from the glassware they're contained in. It may be possible under extremely expensive conditions to restrict this, but I'm (almost!) certain that you cannot eliminate it.

Have another look at Xouper's calculations above - especially the one where he describes a 12C solution as being 1 molecule of active "stuff" per ounce of water.

Then think about all the other bits that are going to be present in that water. How is the water going to know which is the "drug" molecule that needs to be remembered, and which are the "junk" molecules that need to be forgotten?

 

[richardm]

distilled water still contains extras, therefore could presume contaiminaton of and make void the test?

The test was done to see whether a homeopathic remedy could affect the behaviour of a bunch of cells. It used the same methods to make the solutions as a homeopathist would use, so if there was something in there that would invalidate the tests, then that would make the homeopathic remedies equally invalid.

Dont tell me teach me. willing here

My tongue was in my cheek